If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject > to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way > to defend yourself appeal. > > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening > to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person > how flawed the system is. > > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack > of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already > experimented it failing in first hand. > > Best, > Paulo > > > > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> > escreveu: >> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is >> for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable? >> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over >> the popularity contests of the mob any day. >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta >> <paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle >> > for severe harassment itself. >> > >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really >> > be looked at. >> > >> > Best, >> > Paulo >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < >> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu: >> > >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I >> > > personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement. >> > > >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged >> > > offenders, >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of >> > > harrassment. >> > > >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are >> > > questionned by official members of our movement? >> > > >> > > Nattes à chat >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com> a >> > > écrit : >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the >> > > >> Wikimedia >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting >> > > someone >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had >> > > to >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was >> > > affected >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when >> > > you >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the >> > > >> feelings of others." >> > > >> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect >> > > >> on >> > > >> this thread. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the >> > > > energy to write. >> > > > >> > > > Chris >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
