Thanks Ashwin for this additional response. A couple of quick notes to close this one out. Best, Barry
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.bain...@gmail.com>wrote: > Dear Barry, > > thank you for taking the trouble to provide a comprehensive and timely > response to my critique. > > There is no doubt that India Programs is putting in hard work, and there > are definitely good results as you pointed out and I agree with. All your > points are well taken, though I am not in agreement with all of them. The > direction that work should go in is a moot point of disagreement between us > which could be debated further but that is not what I would like to argue > about. It was basically to present a point-of-view as to how I, as an > editor, see and judge things. In a sense, it is feedback. > Taken as feedback. > > Your point about the efficacy of outreach is well taken. Pune community > has indeed grown somewhat from outreach, but this has primarily been in the > Marathi Wikipedia side. We have had few English editors as a result of > outreach but barely enough to keep us going and definitely not enough to > feel happy about. Personal experience has shown me that outreach itself is > more a tool of education of the community and less that of recruitment. > But it is also a little unfair to compare the efforts of we few community > members doing outreach all in our precious spare time and under far greater > constraints than India Program. > > The outreach handbook is definitely a positive step in the right direction > but* *I am not quite happy about the way the outreach survey is being > done. Ostensibly to measure the efficacy of the community-led outreach, no > discussion of the outreach survey was done prior to it. No instructions > have been given to us to follow during outreach which will provide the > intellectual rigour of such an exercise. Since we have not been asked for > only user names of outreach attendees but no other data, the factors > affecting outreach cannot be judged. Since the methodology of carrying out > outreach for this survey, has not been communicated to us, the deductions > may be faulty and the data samples we provide will be skewed. The size of > the sample may also be statistically inadequate. Survey is a serious > business and involves all stakeholders and a proper plan is needed and > executed if we are to get unbiased results. > I'll ask that Mani and Nitika gets some documentation up on the approach to evaluation as well as the tool over the next couple of weeks. It is still very much a first step and there is plenty of opportunity for refinement and hope you and others will add to it. > > You mention that Hisham is doing the kind of engagement of higher bodies & > decision-makers that I have been wishing for. Perhaps this aspect has not > been communicated well. We do understand that some ongoing interactions may > be only referred to briefly as a matter of discretion. but definitely, the > community would like to know more on these issues, and we would appreciate > more information on this. > I'm sure the info will be forthcoming as these conversations develop. > > As regards representing the voice of the community, I did not mean to > imply that the community had empowered me explicitly or implicitly to > represent them. That was my personal understanding of what the community > feels. You are free to judge and form your own opinion based on your > experience, knowledge of things and inputs from me and all other sources. > In the final analysis, my views are there as feedback for you to take > cognisance of or not. Hopefully, they may lead to better decisions on your > side, whatever those decisions may be. > Indeed, I (we) take the feedback into account and are looking for more feedback not less. I will say that there are some techniques to giving feedback that are more effective than others. Generally, focusing on specifics rather than generalities helps; avoid assumptions about motivation or state of mind, since you can't really know someone's intentions; where possible, suggest solutions; and finally to slightly reposition the point of the old song from Mary Poppins[1]: "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"...it is nice to give appreciation/praise in good balance with criticism. That helps people hear you and avoid feeling attacked. > > As mentioned previously, I remain a well-wisher of all Wikipedia activity, > including India Program, though it may/may not be evident from my > discussions above. > IMO it is evident, even if it might not be elegantly put all the time. ;) > > Warm regards, > > Ashwin Baindur > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Spoonful_of_Sugar Best, Barry > ------------------------------ > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Barry Newstead > <bnewst...@wikimedia.org>wrote: > >> Dear Ashwin, >> >> Thanks for your message. I have to say that specific comments are much >> more useful than vague generalisations, because these are actionable for us >> and we can correct misperceptions (of which there are some significant ones >> below). I'd like to respond to your points below. Please don't read my >> responses too personally, as I'm more focused on the themes in your >> comments that are persistent rather than responding personally. >> >> Thanks for the constructive comments and questions. >> >> Best, >> Barry >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.bain...@gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> Thank you for your responding to me, Barry. I would like to point out a >>> few issues, if I may, to set the context to my stated wish about what India >>> Programs should be doing. >>> >>> A significant proportion of the events listed in your reference were >>> community events and if we consider only those conducted by the India >>> Program team we would see a smaller list which is not so impressive. >> >> >> Who really cares, seriously! The purpose of any list is to share >> information openly and encourage community members to participate. It is >> not a credit taking exercise. >> >> >>> Some of these events had minimal help from India Programs. For example >>> in the GNUNIFY Wikipedia event conducted in February by the Pune community, >>> Nitika's presentation was used and that was all. (Since I had myself added >>> the entry to this page thinking it to be a collation of India outreach >>> events, I am not protesting its inclusion). There are other such events >>> where the involvement was low and these need to be excluded, keeping only >>> those conducted primarily by India Program personnel. >> >> >>> I see your point about value being added by these activities. Any >>> outreach is useful. However, India Program resources are scarce and >>> valuable ( both in the point of view of your multi-100,000$ budgets and >>> limited capacity of the very small team). In this context, it is the mix of >>> activities carried out and the proportion of its components that worry me >>> and the community. >>> >> >> If you look more deeply, you'll see the IP team is doing work that helps >> move us forward. They aren't simply replicating what the community can do >> (note: I will still take issue with the point that there is some invisible >> community being held back from doing copious amounts of outreach or other >> work because the IP team is crowding out their activity). I think the >> value that the IP team can and is bringing is more about the overall >> support of outreach and the improvement of outreach work to increase >> impact. The sad fact about a lot of outreach work is that it doesn't >> produce that much community growth in its current form. Ask yourself >> honestly, Ashwin, how much has your Pune community grown as a result of >> your excellent and dedicated efforts to conducting outreach? What Nitika >> (yes, I think it should be clear to all that she is working hard on this) >> is doing is really investigating the efficacy of outreach and trying to >> identify things that will improve the results for the tireless work that >> you and other community members are doing. The link that I pointed to has >> a handbook for outreach that is evolving and would benefit from a >> collaborative, wiki-style partnership to share learning in which Nitika >> can be the facilitator and doer of the heavy work. In addition, Nitika and >> Subhashish in partnership with the Global Development research team is >> piloting a tool that will help with follow-up after events with attendees >> to encourage actual editing. The tool also allows us to measure whether >> attendees ever actually edit. This is a small pilot that they are >> investing a lot of time in and has the potential to dramatically improve >> outreach (or tell us conclusively that it is not an effective way to build >> community, which I hope isn't true). IMO this is the kind of work that >> adds real value to the community and will help us achieve our shared >> mission in India. >> >> >>> The presence of a small outreach activity is definitely justifiable as >>> keeping a pulse on the overall community and in touch with reality. IMO the >>> conduct of two events a month by India Program staff is more than adequate >>> - it still means 24 events a year, a very sizeable contribution. Hence, >>> events should be carefully chosen for maximum impact deriveable and maximum >>> diversity of experiences. It should be driven by only one staff member, >>> assisted by volunteers, and Hisham should appear there to enthuse the >>> participants, as per the time he can spare from his main agenda, not get >>> involved in the training himself. (More on this later). >> >> >> Thanks for the advice. I think that is already largely the case. Nitika >> is the main resource focused on outreach with some support from >> Subhashish. Hisham involves himself as the manager of the work and has >> been instrumental in guiding us toward a more analytical and >> learning-oriented approach that we hope will be fruitful. >> >>> >>> Comments on Roles >>> >>> * From what I have seen, the community will concur with me that adding >>> Shiju to India Program staff is definitely the right way to go. Shiju has >>> identified the "state of the nation" very well. He needs to keep working on >>> this field without being distracted by other things. But now the need is to >>> build the Indic language infrastructure - community building beyond a >>> certain point is the business of the community itself, not India Programs. >>> India Programs needs to tackle programs/seed projects/tasks which cannot be >>> easily done by the Indic community and which will lead to >>> empowerment/growth/development of the entire Indic movement. >>> >> >> Thanks. He is indeed focused here and is doing excellent work. It is >> useful to note that he partners very closely with Hisham, who provides a >> lot of silent support and guidance and gets useful input from the rest of >> the team (and he contributes to the work of the team as well). We believe >> (and most organizational effectiveness research supports) that teaming is >> an effective approach to getting things done. It isn't about putting >> people in silos and leaving them there to figure it out. >> >>> >>> * There is considerable confusion of roles of Noopur, Nikita & >>> Subhashish. The roles are nebulous and the explanations/justification for >>> their activities not convincing. Noopur had, to my mind, potential to be a >>> great GLAM resource. Yet she is doing suboptimal activities. So we have >>> three people working but the responsibilities/areas are not what the >>> community feels are required. Of the three resource people, one is more >>> than enough for the outreach, outreach handbook, WikiPatrika & >>> communication roles required. The other two and Hisham should be addressing >>> things that are not being addressed. These activities could be done by >>> Subhasish. >>> >> >> I've explained Nitika's work above and she will also play an important >> role in future education work. Noopur has been on the job for a month and >> her role will become clearer as she settles in and starts getting some >> communications-focused initiatives going. Subhashish's role is by >> definition less simple to express. He is there to support the team and >> handle administrative elements. He is playing a valuable support role to >> Nitika and Shiju. He also frees Hisham from some of the burden of >> administration. >> >>> >>> * IEP - Gives the impression of prematurely being abandoned by the India >>> Program, the IEP version 2 is terribly behind schedule. It gives the >>> impression that Hisham and his team are once bitten, twice shy. The ghost >>> of IEP can only be laid by struggling through to a successful model, not by >>> trying to do other activities to make up the lack of success. At least, one >>> person should be deployed full time on this - Nitika. We need IEP, Hisham >>> & Nitika to make a good success of IEP 2. In no other way, can we retrieve >>> our reputation. I say, our. because the Indian community feels let down, >>> unhappy and involved in this program, it is nt a matter of the IEP & the >>> CAs/Students only. >>> >> >> So, we are taking this slowly on purpose. It is not because of shyness on >> Hisham and Nitika's part. They are ready to go for it again and are excited >> to lay the ghosts to rest as you say. We did wait a bit to let everyone >> have some time to reflect on the pilot lessons (including us). We want to >> get the conversation going again, soon, though there is nothing stopping >> you from starting it yourself if you like. I will say I'm really encouraged >> by part of your remark, as we haven't really heard anyone say that the >> Indian community is committed to trying again to make this kind of program >> work in the Indian context. We too, particularly Hisham and Nitika, remain >> committed to education work in India. We are also looking forward to >> incorporating the lessons we are garnering in our work in Brazil and Egypt >> at the moment into future designs. We'll be getting back on the elephant, >> for sure. >> >>> >>> * Liaison with government, academia, industry, Institutes of learning, >>> NGOs, etc. The aim is to familiarise, educate and create opportunities >>> which are beyond the reach of the common wikipedian. Sadly, this is not >>> being pursued with any sincerity, much less any purpose. Some of the >>> community members feel, it is not happening at all. The nation's top movers >>> & shakers need to be engaged by Hisham, not the newbies & Indic editors. >>> This should be Hisham's primary agenda - vision, leadership & engagement at >>> the highest levels. >>> >> >> You are incorrect, actually, so you might reflect on use of terms like >> "sincerity", since this speaks to motivations that you don't really have >> insights into. Hisham has been engaged with institutions and is developing >> a valuable network, though not as much as he would like as these efforts >> take serious time. Hisham would love to have even more time to do this. >> >> Do note that as the leader of a team of people he does a lot to help them >> be effective - this is a core role in team leadership - and is a valuable >> use of time, even if it isn't always visible. He also has had to carry >> significant administrative duties that we are working to get off his >> shoulders. Finally, he spends an inordinate among of time on "India >> politics" (the other IP) - fighting off accusations of malintent, attacks >> on himself and his team members, and arguments that go nowhere about who is >> the "boss of X". The guy is working is butt off...often seven days a week >> and is available at odd hours to engage with colleagues in the US and with >> community members around the country. It is worth stepping back and >> reflecting before offering personal critiques of Hisham and the IP team. >> One might ask oneself: "do I understand the full context of the situation >> that this person is dealing with?" There is some great research on >> "attribution bias" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributional_bias) >> that is worth keeping in mind when you think you have things all figured >> out and are comfortable ascribing motives to people or commenting on what >> you think they are doing. >> >>> >>> * GLAM & preservation of Indian Culture. This requires a full-time >>> commitment. Part-time responsibility, and one-off projects simply wont do. >>> Noopur is well-suited for this and it should be one of her major >>> commitments. WikiPatrika & some other smaller commitments may be part of >>> her responsibilities. >>> >>> In the absence of concrete action on things that really need doing, and >>> the far too large emphasis on community building by India programs, which >>> is frankly in my opinion, none of their business, Barry, I feel skeptical >>> about the cost to value derived by this multi-hundred thousand dollar India >>> Program program. >>> >>> People in the general community may disagree with me on individual >>> issues, but the general unhappiness of most concerned editors on Indian >>> community are based on these lines. >>> >> >> I respect your concerns, but I would prefer that you speak for yourself >> rather than invoking "most concerned editors". Let's not pretend that we >> have any special authority to speak for the community. >> >> My view of the IP is that it will not be built in a day. We committed to >> a multi-year investment because it will take time to build and we would >> need to do a range of pilots (some successful, some not), learn from them >> and then build programs that work. If this work was easy, it would have >> been done already. I'd like nothing more than to have "figured it all out" >> in India, so that we could move on to other challenges, but that isn't what >> we signed up for. This is a long, hard road with elusive rewards and a lot >> of difficult work along the way (including building community support), but >> the rewards are pretty huge if we can find solutions that help build our >> projects in India and expand access and contribution to the sum of all >> knowledge. >> >> >>> You would do well to consider from a Project Management perspective, >>> what are the goals of the complete year for the India Program, where we >>> want to be and the exact activities & events needed for this. As of now, >>> Hisham/India Programs seems to be functioning month-to-month, in a reactive >>> mode. >>> >> >> You might refer to the India Program plans on Meta ( >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program), which have been there for >> people to contribute to for about a year and is evolving as we learn. The >> team is working to this plan and is adjusting as needed based on learning >> from their engagement on the issues and discussions with people in the >> community. If you have better ideas or think that their plans can be >> improved, then click edit. I'm actually serious about this. There has been >> a ton of keys clicked in the mailing lists criticizing, but not many on >> contributing to the plans and helping improve them. They are on a public >> wiki for a reason. >> >> >>> On my side, I have only a desire to see the community, chapter and India >>> Program all succeed and prosper. And my support for this wish of mine is >>> assured to all concerned. >>> >> >> I don't doubt your sincerity. You make a lot of valuable contributions >> including this note. I would say that we all would benefit if you (and >> others) would ascribe the same sincerity to the IP team, recognize that >> what they (and all of us) are engaged in isn't exactly straight-forward and >> their goals are the same as yours. >> >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> >>> Ashwin Baindur >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > -- Barry Newstead Chief Global Development Officer Wikimedia Foundation Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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