Ryan,
No doubt we’re seeing better support, my question about PPSK was just that… a
question. I’m looking at options going forward to solve the ongoing divide
between the devices that do and do not support these advanced methods. For
students (which is my focus), the advantages/disadvantages between the options
don’t matter when their devices have to be dealt with differently.
On face value, PPSK appears to solve the problem for the user, removing
barriers at the college that don’t exist at their home. While I agree that TLS
configuration isn’t difficult, it’s still far harder than just entering a PPSK,
and not everything supports TLS. We’ve been wishing for better support from
device makers for a decade, and each year we take a few steps forward, and then
a few backward.
Our vendor is rumored to be adding enterprise-scalable PPSK support early next
year, so I was really curious to know if others had this option, would it
influence the deployment of TLS. Right or wrong, it’s influenced mine, so I
wasn’t sure if I was an outlier or were others of the same mindset.
Jeff
On 11/2/16, 3:49 PM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
on behalf of Turner, Ryan H" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of
rhtur...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
Jeff,
I think that actually advanced EAP methods have turned the corner.
Manufacturers are making onboarding easier. I think you are under the
impression that configuring a device for certificates is a big process. It
takes most people less than 5 minutes, and they do this once a year.
Just in our area, UNC and NC State, representing over 60,000 students are
TLS. Duke is moving that way.
I haven't spoken to anyone recently even remotely considering PPSK. I've
heard plenty starting to explore TLS.
Ryan Turner
Manager of Network Operations, ITS
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
+1 919 274 7926 Mobile
+1 919 445 0113 Office
> On Nov 1, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Jeffrey D. Sessler <j...@scrippscollege.edu>
wrote:
>
> I think the distinction between enterprise and residential blurred with
the advent of SaaS and the cloud. No longer did an employee need to be “at the
office” to enter their hours worked in the time and attendance system, or as an
administrator, you no longer had to run the accounting application from your
office computer. It’s difficult for me to name anything we’re doing here now
that isn’t some form of web-based SaaS model, where the expectation is that an
employee (baring overtime rules) can access these systems from any location. If
an employee can access these systems from Starbucks for the 16 hours a day they
aren’t at work, what’s the point of WPA2-ent for the other 8?
>
> I’m of the mindset that WAP2-Enterprise may in fact be an endangered
species. I think most will come to accept that something like PPSK is “good
enough”. Users don’t want significant barriers to getting access to what they
need, and once those barriers reach a certain level, the user will absolutely
find alternatives i.e. I’ve visited many colleges where it was easier to use my
MiFi hotspot then to be forced thru a cumbersome on-boarding system where there
are restrictions be it on services available or data rates.
>
> Taken to the extreme. At the point you no longer have a local data center
and everything is SaaS, can an argument for WPA2-ent still be made?
>
> Jeff
>
> On 11/1/16, 3:03 PM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group
Listserv on behalf of Curtis K. Larsen" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on
behalf of curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu> wrote:
>
> Well, I think users in general expect that when they connect to the
"Secure" wireless network - it is both encrypted, and they are not being
impersonated. If not, maybe you could allow them to opt-out after accepting
the risk. Often these are the same credentials that staff use to login and set
the direct deposit for their paycheck, credentials faculty use to post grades,
and students use to add/drop classes. The business could also opt-out if they
are willing to accept the risk. But as the Enterprise Wireless Engineer you
should at least make everyone aware that with PPSK there are still risks.
Also, I just think one of these standards was intended to be mostly for
residential purposes and the other for mostly enterprise purposes. When you
look at federated authentication as in eduroam or hotspot 2.0, etc. WPA2-Ent.
just seems to fit better long-term. In short, I think the difficult/expensive
parts of PKI/EAP-TLS have recently become a lot easier and I think they'll
continue to do so.
>
> -Curtis
>
> ________________________________________
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
<WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Chuck Enfield <chu...@psu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 2:54 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors
>
> "If we can agree that most applications today (including ones that
involve
> FERPA or PII) are web-based (let’s toss in cloud too), and a user can
access
> them from any location including at home on a PSK protected SSID (or
> cellular connection, or open network at Starbucks), does forcing
WPA2-Ent at
> the campus actually result in reduced risk? Is there cost
justification for
> the infrastructure (staff, hardware, software) necessary to implement
> EAP-TLS (or alternatives)?"
>
> Where's the like button? FWIW, I still like enterprise encryption and
> authentication for keeping people off of my network. I's nevertheless
> useful to remind ourselves of precisely what the value is, and it's not
> protecting the data.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
> [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D.
Sessler
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 4:41 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors
>
> Curtis,
>
> If we can agree that most applications today (including ones that
involve
> FERPA or PII) are web-based (let’s toss in cloud too), and a user can
access
> them from any location including at home on a PSK protected SSID (or
> cellular connection, or open network at Starbucks), does forcing
WPA2-Ent at
> the campus actually result in reduced risk? Is there cost
justification for
> the infrastructure (staff, hardware, software) necessary to implement
> EAP-TLS (or alternatives)?
>
> Our Admissions process starts with getting Common App (filled out by
> student/parents at home on a website and includes a lot of sensitive
info),
> that data feeds into Slate (another cloud-based Admissions package),
then
> feeds into financial-aid and the SiS (again web-based for the users).
The
> bulk of the PII/FERPA items have then been collected outside of the
college
> envirnoment, from connections that may have Starbucks level of
protection. I’m
> trying to see the justification of WPA2-Ent, but it’s a hard sell –
sure, I
> know there can be advantages, but are they necessary and/or justified?
Is
> PPSK good enough for everyone. Is it good enough for students and their
> devices?
>
> Jeff
>
> On 11/1/16, 8:56 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group
> Listserv on behalf of Curtis K. Larsen"
<WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> on behalf of curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu> wrote:
>
> I personally would *not* prefer PPSK for devices that are WPA2-Ent.
> (EAP-TLS) capable. PPSK has a nice niche in the IoT device category
for
> devices that do not support WPA2-Ent. (EAP-TLS) in my opinion, and
we'll be
> anxious to use it there when our vendor delivers ...but the same
> vulnerabilities around a regular WPA2-PSK are still there (de-auths,
brute
> forcing). So, for IoT in student housing (game consoles, and roku
devices
> that only do PSK) maybe PPSK is the appropriate new level of security
> because sensitive data is unlikely, but for the most common devices
(Phone,
> Laptop, Tablet, etc.) where users are more likely to access and
transmit
> FERPA, PHI, etc. WPA2-Enterprise with EAP-TLS seems more appropriate.
From
> what I can tell it is probably easier to implement EAP-TLS than PPSK
amongst
> the fully-managed portion of that device class anyway (thinking GPO
here).
> In my ideal world I would have 3 SSID's One Guest SSID unencrypted,
One
> PPSK SSID that accommodates all of the non-dot1x capable devices that
are
> not guest users, and one dot1x WPA2-Ent (EAP-TLS) SSID for traditional
> Student/Faculty/Staff devices (Phone, Laptop, Tablet). Then someday
in the
> future Hotspot 2.0/802.11u would convert many of the un-encrypted
guests
> over to encrypted without any captive portal interaction.
>
>
> --
> Curtis K. Larsen
> Senior Network Engineer
> University of Utah IT/CIS
>
> ________________________________________
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
> <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Coehoorn, Joel
> <jcoeho...@york.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 8:33 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors
>
>> If those using or considering TLS had the option of PPSK (personal
> pre-shared key), would you opt for PPSK instead?
>
> Definitely. I think it's a much more user-friendly option, while
> providing similar control and security as TLS.
>
>
>
>
>
[https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.york.edu%2FPortals%2F0%2FImages%2FLogo%2FYorkCollegeLogoSmall.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Crhturner%40EMAIL.UNC.EDU%7C8ba9f4f887a04f7e52e108d402a6da68%7C58b3d54f16c942d3af081fcabd095666%7C1&sdata=j5gtTSxQnAijXNtvjGfjq2af%2FlXacwcY0P2oTcl%2BXqc%3D&reserved=0]
>
>
> Joel Coehoorn
> Director of Information Technology
> 402.363.5603
> jcoeho...@york.edu<mailto:jcoeho...@york.edu>
>
>
>
>
> The mission of York College is to transform lives through
> Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service
to God,
> family, and society
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Jeffrey D. Sessler
> <j...@scrippscollege.edu<mailto:j...@scrippscollege.edu>> wrote:
> Just curious. If those using or considering TLS had the option of
PPSK
> (personal pre-shared key), would you opt for PPSK instead?
>
> Jeff
>
> On 10/31/16, 9:27 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent
Group
> Listserv on behalf of Bruce Boardman"
>
<WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
> on behalf of board...@syr.edu<mailto:board...@syr.edu>> wrote:
>
> We are using Cloud Path for onboarding, but we are considering
other
> options if and when we go to EAP TLS. We may get it baked in if we use
ISE
> or Clear Pass but I considering other standalone options as well.
Anybody
> have experience or thoughts they'd like to share. Thanks
>
> Bruce Boardman Networking Syracuse University 315
> 412-4156<tel:315%20412-4156> Skype
board...@syr.edu<mailto:board...@syr.edu>
>
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