There are companies out there working on non-802.11 3.65 GHz systems that provide the same spectral efficiency as WiMAX, but without the WiMAX hype price tag.
---------- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] 3.65 Matt, I agree. We are looking at the same thing... putting up some 3.65ghz AP's on our "bigger" towers and moving heavy usage customers to that. However, until base stations are less than $8k, the WiMax people can keep spending money on advertising, trade-shows, etc. telling us how great they are, I'm not going to buy. When you can buy a licensed microwave radio link for $8k (less antennas), and you know the company is making money, there is no reason 3.65ghz base stations have to be $8k+. Hopefully at some point, they will wake up and realize there is an entire market they are missing. Travis Microserv Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: I'm with Travis on this, with the exception of using StarOS instead of Mikrotik. It is nice to have a set of standard, mature tools such as radius, cbq/iptable rules and standard, non-vendor specific hardware to work with instead of having to use a limited, proprietary system limited to a single vendor. I've deployed/consulted on 802.11 a/b/g networks representing 8000+ CPE units and it can be made to work just fine as long as it is managed properly. Travis is a pro, and he has the experience to design his network in such a way as to maximize the performance of his equipment. There are many others out there having the same success. FWIW, I believe the most logical next step is to start moving heavy usage customers over to 3.65 WiMAX gear starting next spring. I think we are near the threshold of what is going to be possible with unlicensed equipment - barring some kind of amazing breakthrough. I foresee a need to deploy smaller and smaller cells to maintain the desired performance level. It helps to have 10mhz channel sizes available to maximize the utilization of existing spectrum, but even that is starting to get awfully crowded. Whitespaces sure would help. I spent the last two years putting up 802.11a based APs across my entire service area and migrating customers from 2.4 to them to get the higher ARPU from faster speeds and VOIP service. I foresee spending the next two years deploying licensed backhauls and 3.65 APs starting with the high traffic areas and working out to the fringes. Its the neverending story. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was "color code". This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the "norm". And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing "up to 4meg" for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing "up to 2meg", mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download & upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download & upload separately because I am "forced" to pay dearly ($1200/month) to AT&T for my dual T1's which are required for "decent" upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management & monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not "dedicated" connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! 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