So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC?
Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless
Mike Hammett wrote:
> Depends on where it's coming from. As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which
> is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price
> is just equipment and cross connects. Public Peering with route servers
> (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not
> Equinix).
>
> There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive.
>
> I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap.
>
> People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment
> instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC.
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>
>>> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first
>>> place.
>>> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if
>>> you
>>> can't deliver what the customer wants.
>>>
>>>
>> Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra
>> and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however
>> I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver
>> what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it.
>>
>>
>>> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an
>>> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the
>>> only thing you can do at this time.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you
>> think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs
>> we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for
>> that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a
>> markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment.
>>
>> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
>> billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
>> to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized
>> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
>>
>>> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this
>>> time.
>>> They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on
>>> your
>>> $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis
>>> because
>>> of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.
>>>
>>>
>> There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber
>> providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream?
>>
>> Sam Tetherow
>> Sandhills Wireless
>>
>>
>>> Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high
>>> capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions
>>> with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction.
>>>
>>> Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to
>>> the
>>> networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes
>>>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
>>>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>>>>
>>>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
>>>> picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
>>>> comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient
>>>> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their
>>>> 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix,
>>>> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts
>>>> payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on
>>>> that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x.
>>>>
>>>> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.
>>>> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.
>>>> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity
>>>> is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less
>>>> the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on
>>>> wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can
>>>> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>>>>
>>>> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others
>>>> that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely
>>>> where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down
>>>> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell
>>>> phone plans today.
>>>>
>>>> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive
>>>> the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco
>>>> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited
>>>> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing
>>>> this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile
>>>> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>>>>
>>>> Sam Tetherow
>>>> Sandhills Wireless
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers
>>>>> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might
>>>>> could
>>>>> live with that if the economics worked out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scottie
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>>>>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
>>>>>> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we
>>>>>> start
>>>>>> seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some
>>>>>> common
>>>>>> interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player,
>>>>>> Quicktime,
>>>>>> etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to
>>>>>> maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a
>>>>>> while to
>>>>>> prove they are watching the content and commercials.
>>>>>> Scriv
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>> 50-100 on an AP.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Travis Johnson
>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple
>>>>>>> Canopy
>>>>>>> AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps
>>>>>>> downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps
>>>>>>> each).
>>>>>>> Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video
>>>>>>> streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Travis
>>>>>>> Microserv
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Drew Lentz wrote:
>>>>>>> In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy
>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>> service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the
>>>>>>> service
>>>>>>> providers will fall into line, I believe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the
>>>>>>> device
>>>>>>> requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> decision of higher consumption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the
>>>>>>> communications
>>>>>>> mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services
>>>>>>> required.
>>>>>>> Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost
>>>>>>> per MB
>>>>>>> over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's
>>>>>>> Bullet,
>>>>>>> the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a
>>>>>>> fraction
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle.
>>>>>>> Fiber to
>>>>>>> the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave,
>>>>>>> Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically
>>>>>>> important to
>>>>>>> aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be
>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>> in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available
>>>>>>> connection
>>>>>>> at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it,
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay
>>>>>>> $1200/mth
>>>>>>> for each cell tower to put them on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these
>>>>>>> companies
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> are making million's of dollars more than we are?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scottie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any
>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>> is,
>>>>>>> to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't
>>>>>>> necessarily
>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>>> the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> time to change the model.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The
>>>>>>> networks
>>>>>>> that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at
>>>>>>> CES
>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>> year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> current service provider can't get you what you need, there will
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> someone else who can.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is some great info here from a recent conference:
>>>>>>> http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it
>>>>>>> breaks
>>>>>>> down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per
>>>>>>> household:
>>>>>>> 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!)
>>>>>>> 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps
>>>>>>> 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps
>>>>>>> 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps
>>>>>>> 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps
>>>>>>> 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scary how quickly it adds up :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My favorite quote:
>>>>>>> ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> entire Internet in 1995²
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -d
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost
>>>>>>> effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone
>>>>>>> wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month
>>>>>>> (not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to
>>>>>>> be "free" as they think now.... when they get a $150/month internet
>>>>>>> bill, the $40 for DishTV will look pretty good. ;)
>>>>>>> Even the cable companies are feeling the burn here:
>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/3oufk8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or a better story:
>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am glad to see these types of reports coming out. The cable ops
>>>>>>> and telcos have been rapidly trying to commoditize Internet access
>>>>>>> services and now they are realizing how stupid that was. In my
>>>>>>> opinion, high profile companies that are setting these limits are
>>>>>>> going to help the smaller guys (that's us) "get away" with what, in
>>>>>>> many cases, we were already doing. BW caps are something that will
>>>>>>> HAVE to happen in one form or another.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <RANT>
>>>>>>> Where are all the net neutrality people now? Why aren't you all
>>>>>>> arguing that something like this is not relevant? Isn't this
>>>>>>> something that you have all asked for? I mean, if I sell someone a
>>>>>>> 2 meg connection, shouldn't they (and everyone else on the system)
>>>>>>> be able to run at 2 meg for the whole month? What difference does
>>>>>>> it make if I am buying a wireless connection, DSL or cable
>>>>>>> connection? In a net neutral environment, should it matter that I
>>>>>>> am streaming this type of content?
>>>>>>> </RANT>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel better. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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