John, Your insight hit the nail on the head. Unfortuntately, the current dominent manufacturers in 80G don't get it yet. The year after at IWPC, there was one manufacturer, Huber+Suhner, that appeared to get it. They discovered a super low cost method to make 60-80Ghz antennas, taht could be made for pennies. Its just a matter of time before the industry comes up with a radio for us. I'm pretty sure it was them that demoed a 60-80Ghz radio delivering around 300mbps targeting a probable $2000k price points. These type companies are still looking for the business cases to support it, but I think it will happen.
Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Scrivner" <j...@scrivner.com> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >I spoke before the millmeter wave IWPC group about 3 years ago. My message > to them was to stop selling at high margins per radio pair and sell > millions > of units at lower margins. They thought I was nuts. I met a guy from Intel > who was making millimeter wave radio devices out of CMOS instead of SiGe. > It > is like the difference in cost of "building radios out of rust instead of > diamonds" (quote from my friemnd Jack Rickard). Sadly this group is still > sticking to old ways. If we ever see CMOS millmeter wave radios taking off > then we will see $1K GigE radios. Then everyone gets a gigabit. > Scriv > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Tom DeReggi > <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net>wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> I agree to a point. >> >> But we could be competing with FIOS to the Home, with lower price 60 and >> 80Ghz products. >> Look at Xbox, using technology that once only the military or Hollywood >> could afford, but now is bring satisfaction to millions of kids (and >> adults) >> nationwide. >> Technology is all about the race to the bottom, so the technology's use >> can >> be maximized by the largest number of people. My kid just got a Happy >> meal >> toy, that actually talks. Its amazing how cheap technology can be made. I >> don't think the FCC made 80Ghz rules just for the few people that can >> justify the cost structure of Bridgewave. 80Ghz is MOSTLY going unused. >> And >> its because manufacturers are letting their marketing ideas, stand in the >> way of getting product in providers hands. I should not have to pay $30k >> to >> use 80Ghz frequency, if I have a project that isn't worth that much. >> >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >> >> > Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The >> > link >> > has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So >> > thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap >> of >> > more to follow. >> > >> > They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that >> > price. >> > No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the >> > market >> > clearly supports the current price point. >> > >> > Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with >> > AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at >> > $10k >> > - $20k depending on who you ask. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > >> > Brad >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM >> > To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> > >> > I fully agree. >> > >> > I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a >> > license >> > >> > for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for >> > manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. >> The >> > truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some >> > reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the >> > 80Ghz. >> > I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry >> > back >> > >> > for no good reason. >> > >> > We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are >> > getting >> > really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before >> > Trango >> > adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn >> > close >> > to >> > >> > the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather >> > and >> > rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty >> > short >> > >> > range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for >> 1/3 >> > the price. Most people would rather save money. >> > >> > They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making >> > sales, >> > before to long. >> > >> > I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure >> > for >> > that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its >> > buyer. >> > But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can >> > count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a >> > $10k >> > radio. >> > >> > Tom DeReggi >> > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "can...@believewireless.net" <p...@believewireless.net> >> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> > >> > >> >>A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and >> had >> >> the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas >> with >> >> over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do >> >> 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. >> >> Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, "We really don't >> >> need >> >> a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine." >> >> >> >> We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex >> >> links. >> >> Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they >> >> are >> >> cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave >> >> offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be >> >> all >> >> over >> >> it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's >> >> SLE100 >> >> can >> >> do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend >> to >> >> be >> >> outside of the 1/2 mile range. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi >> >> <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net>wrote: >> >> >> >>> Brad, >> >>> >> >>> Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO >> >>> combining >> 4 >> >>> links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting >> >>> pretty >> >>> close. >> >>> But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak >> >>> capacity >> >>> is >> >>> the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. >> >>> Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. >> >>> >> >>> What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and >> >>> affording >> >>> to buy and install as many links as possible. >> >>> >> >>> WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave >> >>> needs >> >>> more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that >> >>> Apexes >> >>> and >> >>> Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left >> >>> behind >> >>> this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and >> >>> embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology >> >>> less >> >>> trouble to deploy. >> >>> >> >>> Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK >> >>> then, >> >>> Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be >> bought >> >>> and >> >>> deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and >> >>> get >> >>> my >> >>> ROI in one year. >> >>> >> >>> Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before >> >>> you >> >>> need >> >>> it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance >> >>> costs >> >>> on >> >>> that. >> >>> Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being >> >>> used. >> >>> If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per >> >>> link. >> >>> Sure >> >>> if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But >> at >> >>> typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of >> >>> procurement over 3-5 years. >> >>> >> >>> I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they >> >>> attempt >> >>> to >> >>> get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, >> >>> they >> >>> loose >> >>> huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and >> >>> Dragonwave, >> >>> that >> >>> fit a much wider set of diverse needs. >> >>> >> >>> Tom DeReggi >> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> >> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw >> >>> > throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will >> >>> > produce >> >>> > line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think >> >>> > DragonWave >> >>> > can >> >>> > pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to >> >>> > deploying >> >>> > another BridgeWave link. >> >>> > >> >>> > Best, >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > Brad >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >> >>> > [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> >>> > On >> >>> > Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >> >>> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM >> >>> > To: 'WISPA General List' >> >>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> > >> >>> > Tom, >> >>> > >> >>> > The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than >> >>> > Dragonwave >> >>> > for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to >> >>> > it. >> >>> > >> >>> > Daniel White >> >>> > 3-dB Networks >> >>> > http://www.3dbnetworks.com >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>> >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >> >>> >>[mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> >>> >>On >> >>> >>Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >> >>> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM >> >>> >>To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List >> >>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Bob, >> >>> >> >> >>> >>I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is >> >>> >>due). >> >>> >>Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with >> >>> >>366mbps >> >>> >>per >> >>> >>radio ODU with Ethernet. >> >>> >>Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio >> >>> >>combining >> >>> >>(for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value >> proposition >> >>> >>of >> >>> >>6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple >> hops, >> >>> >>to >> >>> >>deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Tom DeReggi >> >>> >>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> >>> >>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>----- Original Message ----- >> >>> >>From: <lakel...@gbcx.net> >> >>> >>To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM >> >>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>>I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> But agree with everything else >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> :-) >> >>> >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 >> >>> >>> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Good advice Bob, but I'll add.... There is a purpose for each >> model, >> >>> >>and >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>> that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not >> >>> >>> always >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>> best >> >>> >>> choice. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some >> >>> >>> circumstances. >> >>> >>> Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to >> >>> >>1000ft. >> >>> >>> (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to >> >>> >>> 150-200 >> >>> >>feet or >> >>> >>> so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional >> >>> >>> Fiber >> >>> >>> termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. >> >>> >>> (Dragonwave >> >>> >>> on >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>> other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require >> >>> >>taking >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long >> >>> >>> cable >> >>> >>> deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq >> >>> >>Coords >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of >> >>> >>> completion >> >>> >>because >> >>> >>> they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 >> >>> >>> and >> >>> >>> 23 >> >>> >>Ghz >> >>> >>> only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it >> >>> >>should >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are >> >>> >>Private >> >>> >>> VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. >> >>> >>> For >> >>> >>> example, >> >>> >>> Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. >> >>> >>> Port2 >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>> ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This >> is >> >>> >>> enabled >> >>> >>> with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router >> equipment >> >>> >>do >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. >> >>> >>> This >> >>> >>is >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique >> >>> >>> benefit. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The >> >>> >>> Airpair >> >>> >>> supports >> >>> >>> a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged >> with >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>> Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement >> >>> >>> warrantees, >> >>> >>its >> >>> >>> much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full >> outdoor >> >>> >>> radio. >> >>> >>> I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>a >> >>> >>> full >> >>> >>> Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links >> in >> >>> >>> place, >> >>> >>> and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With >> >>> >>> that >> >>> >>said, >> >>> >>> we >> >>> >>> love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, >> >>> >>> with >> >>> >>Zero >> >>> >>> Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where >> they >> >>> >>need >> >>> >>> to >> >>> >>> be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The >> >>> >>> Dragonwaves >> >>> >>were >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so >> >>> >>> more >> >>> >>> expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango >> >>> >>> giga, >> >>> >>> where >> >>> >>> split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>> those >> >>> >>> that will benefit from it. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >> >>> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> >>> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> >>> From: "Bob Moldashel" <lakel...@gbcx.net> >> >>> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>>> Well....a couple of notes... >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes >> >>> >>>> servicing >> >>> >>a >> >>> >>>> breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No >> >>> >>guessing >> >>> >>>> about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the >> >>> >>interface >> >>> >>>> cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run >> >>> >>>> CAT5 >> >>> >>>> and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log >> >>> >>>> in >> >>> >>>> or >> >>> >>see >> >>> >>>> no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines >> >>> >>>> are >> >>> >>bad >> >>> >>>> your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on >> >>> >>>> the >> >>> >>ground >> >>> >>>> with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with >> >>> >>>> theft >> >>> >>>> you >> >>> >>>> can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a >> >>> >>>> security >> >>> >>>> screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly >> >>> >>>> to >> >>> >>lock >> >>> >>>> it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably >> >>> >>>> consider >> >>> >>>> another location. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> With weather being a concern you could always install a second >> >>> >>parallel >> >>> >>>> link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link >> fails >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>>> other could be engaged to carry the traffic. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) >> >>> >>>> without >> >>> >>4' >> >>> >>>> antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 >> >>> >>>> Ghz. >> >>> >>>> you >> >>> >>>> are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per >> >>> >>>> antenna >> >>> >>with >> >>> >>>> mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and >> >>> >>>> installation. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service >> >>> >>>> facility >> >>> >>is >> >>> >>>> in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment >> >>> >>>> overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is >> >>> >>>> only >> >>> >>>> $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing >> >>> >>>> some >> >>> >>>> growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is >> >>> >>>> serviced >> >>> >>>> overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to >> >>> >>>> leave >> >>> >>your >> >>> >>>> name with a service and they call you back. I have installed >> >>> >>>> more >> >>> >>than >> >>> >>>> 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 >> >>> >>>> failures. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill >> >>> >>>> them >> >>> >>as >> >>> >>>> an option. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all >> >>> >>>> your >> >>> >>>> control external to the radio. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Bob >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Paolo Di Francesco wrote: >> >>> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back >> >>> >>>>> hauling >> >>> >>and >> >>> >>>>> therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are >> >>> >>>>> looking >> >>> >>>>> at >> >>> >>2 >> >>> >>>>> main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is >> >>> >>>>> "which >> >>> >>>>> one >> >>> >>>>> fits better for our needs"? >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> Just to summarize: >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> a) links are around 20-25 miles >> >>> >>>>> b) antennas: the smaller the better >> >>> >>>>> c) robustness is very important >> >>> >>>>> d) average life: 3 years >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the >> >>> >>>>> >following >> >>> >>>>> considerations: >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well >> >>> >>protected >> >>> >>>>> from "sabotage and stealing". The "all outdoor" approach is >> >>> >>>>> nice >> >>> >>>>> but >> >>> >>it >> >>> >>>>> has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they >> >>> >>>>> will >> >>> >>have a >> >>> >>>>> brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will >> >>> >>>>> have >> >>> >>only >> >>> >>>>> half of the "banknote", so after the first or second time, they >> >>> >>>>> will >> >>> >>not >> >>> >>>>> spend time having something useless. >> >>> >>>>> 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber >> from >> >>> >>the >> >>> >>>>> unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge >> >>> >>amount >> >>> >>>>> or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) >> we >> >>> >>get >> >>> >>>>> only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the >> >>> >>tower, >> >>> >>>>> but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments >> >>> >>>>> welcome). >> >>> >>>>> 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices >> >>> >>somewhere >> >>> >>>>> else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just >> >>> >>>>> swapping >> >>> >>>>> the >> >>> >>>>> ODU. >> >>> >>>>> 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is >> >>> >>>>> frozen >> >>> >>>>> (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it >> >>> >>>>> does >> >>> >>not >> >>> >>>>> change much, you have to wait the better season to work on >> >>> >>>>> that. >> >>> >>>>> 5) Performances look more or less the same. >> >>> >>>>> 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some >> >>> >>>>> website, >> >>> >>>>> I >> >>> >>am >> >>> >>>>> still exploring this aspect >> >>> >>>>> 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this >> >>> >>>>> devices >> >>> >>or >> >>> >>>>> just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? >> >>> >>>>> Do >> >>> >>you >> >>> >>>>> need to reset them often? >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> Comments are welcome. >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> Am I missing some other good brand? >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> Thank you. >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> >>----------- >> >>> >>>> WISPA Wants You! 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