Thank you for putting more oil into the fire. Actually the problem is that it is impossible to learn from the WiX documentation / MSI documentation that what we actually want is just impossible, due to two facts:
(a) Both documentations are in part wrong and incomplete which we already discussed several months ago in different threads (please don't discuss this again -- it *is* true as some of our older complains ended up in improvements and additions of the docs already, which proofs my thesis). So sometimes one just has to ask, even when you have read and understood what the docs say. (b) In the past 25+ years of coding (yes, I'm one of that old guys with long beards) I often stumbled about the fact that things *are* possible even if the docs do not tell. You won't learn about that until you ask (it might be random that it works on your machine when just trying out). Also, not all companies can afford people to invest weeks to find out things others already discovered as being impossible. It is of no additional value. Maybe someone else knows for sure that it is impossible, so you spare lots of time and money when just asking. See, not everybody is asking because he's dumb, lazy, or both. Sometimes asking is the better approach to RTFM (especially if you already HAVE RTFM multiple times, invested lots of time, and still did not find the answers). I understand all what you say, but see, in other forums (and I am writing *and answering* in lots of them, especially in the Java field) it is *not* wanted that people post lots of source code and lenghty explanations what already tried out. So we abstained from doing here. You're right, it would be clearer what we liked to know. So next time I will post the complete story so that nobody of you might think that we are dumb or lazy and we can prevent senseless discussions about forum ethics like this one. BTW, it is not very nice to write "start to think" when just *assuming* a dumb or lazy guy. I would always prefer not to assume dumbness or lazyness, since it leads to flame wars in the end. Regards Markus > -----Original Message----- > From: Castro, Edwin G. (Hillsboro) [mailto:edwin.cas...@fiserv.com] > Sent: Freitag, 9. April 2010 21:52 > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Searching for existing files but only once > > I'm going to add my two cents at the risk of adding more fuel to the > fire... *sigh* Here goes... > > I'm a firm believer of RTFM. On my first technical job during my first > summer break during college I was given old HP hardware, 6 CDs, and > told "Today you will learn how to install HPUX from scratch". My > supervisor gave taught me how to boot the hardware using the firmware > on that box and then promptly left. It took me 4 attempts and an entire > week to figure out how to install HPUX from scratch all by myself. I > was expected to search for documentation on my own and I was expected > to read/understand said documentation on my own. Of course, there were > times when I still needed help. In those cases I had no other option > than to ask for help. One must still ask intelligent questions. > > Nearly all HowTo questions can be answered with one of two answers: 1) > RTFM and 2) RTFM. In the first case, the documentation actually > provides the information needed to perform the job. In the second case, > the documentation implicitly says that something is not possible > because it is not supported. Therefore, when one has a question one > needs to formulate it so that the question demonstrates understanding. > A general format for a question is "I'm trying to ... I have tried ... > I read that ... I don't understand why ... Can you point me to ..." In > other words, provide the context that shows that you've done your > homework and that all the ideas haven't clicked yet. With this context > it is much easier for those of us that want to provide help to do so > because we understand the context better and we know what you have > already discovered on your own. Many times all we need to do is confirm > what you already thought was the case. In other cases, we can point you > to other documentation that can help. > > Simply saying "I've read this and I've read that" isn't enough. > Describe what you've learned. Describe what you don't understand. Do > not just formulate your question as "How do I ...?". > > Given that this mailing list is volunteer based, it is even more > important to provide as much context as possible in questions because > we don't have the time to do the research for you. We have other day > jobs. We are all very friendly but only when we are treated with > respect. In my personal opinion, we just saw a volunteer lose their > patience, not necessarily due to the current conversation, but because > of an accumulation of questions asked in the "How do I ...?" fashion > that clearly demonstrate that the questioner hasn't done their homework > yet. She may have exploded in this particular case but not _just_ > because of this particular case. > > Ok. Hopefully, the fires won't heat up any further. And hopefully we'll > all ask better questions and we'll all respond with more questions. > RTFM? > > Edwin G. Castro > Software Developer - Staff > Electronic Banking Services > Fiserv > Office: 503-746-0643 > Fax: 503-617-0291 > www.fiserv.com > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pally Sandher [mailto:pally.sand...@iesve.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:52 AM > > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Searching for existing files but only once > > > > Everyone on this list with the exception of Rob M, Bob A & the rest > of > > the core WiX dev team was a beginner with WiX at one time. However a > > large number of people (myself included) took it upon themselves to > > learn about the tools they're trying to use. Most of us would've done > > that by going through the tutorials, reading the WiX documentation, > > reading MSDN pages for Windows Installer, looking up blog pages for > > Windows Installer etc. (see www.google.com) & then actually trying to > > do > > things for ourselves by creating installers & testing them. As I've > > said > > before on this list would you try to build executables & DLL's in C++ > > without having any knowledge of CRT/ATL/MFC/.NET (delete where > > appropriate)? > > > > "General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset" doesn't mean > > "e-mail here to ask for help on every little issue you get stuck on > > without trying to figure it out for yourself". Maybe I'm being too > > harsh > > on yourself but there's a lot of people posting questions on here > which > > can be answered by a single line reply containing a URL to either the > > WiX tutorial, WiX documentation or an MSDN page for Windows > Installer. > > What's even worse is some people appear to not even read the links > > they're directed to & ask another question which would be answered if > > they took the time to look over the page they've been pointed at. > > > > None of us, not even the core WiX dev team get paid for working on > WiX > > or for helping people by replying to queries on this list & yet there > > are people treating it like a subscription based support service for > a > > commercially bought software package. I guess this is a symptom of > the > > growing popularity of WiX but there's no reason why anyone should be > > happy with that. Maybe I'm just too used to non-Windows based > > communities for free software where people will take the time to try > & > > find the solution themselves & seeing discussion forums as a last > > resort > > when all else fails not the first place to go when you hit a bump in > > the > > road. > > > > You're not going to learn anything if we tell you the solution to > > everything but I get the impression most people asking questions > aren't > > bothered about learning how to fix it themselves, they just want to > be > > handed a solution to get their installers building so they can ship > > their products, get a pat on the back from the management for all > their > > hard work & cash their pay checks. Great in the short term but when > the > > next release comes along lo & behold the queries start again in > > earnest. > > > > On a side note, a lot of people say "How do I do this in WiX?" when > the > > question should be "Does Windows Installer support this?" WiX is not > > Windows Installer. > > > > Time to take another long rest from replying to list queries I guess. > > Have fun everyone. > > > > Palbinder Sandher > > Software Deployment & IT Administrator > > T: +44 (0) 141 945 8500 > > F: +44 (0) 141 945 8501 > > > > http://www.iesve.com > > **Design, Simulate + Innovate with the <Virtual Environment>** > > Integrated Environmental Solutions Limited. Registered in Scotland > No. > > SC151456 > > Registered Office - Helix Building, West Of Scotland Science Park, > > Glasgow G20 0SP > > Email Disclaimer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Markus Karg [mailto:k...@quipsy.de] > > Sent: 09 April 2010 13:33 > > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Searching for existing files but only once > > > > > Any chance you might start thinking for yourself sometime soon? > > > > Actually I do not understand why writing this. We are beginners with > > MSI > > and WiX and have no clue what is there for free out of the box, and > > what > > must be done with special tasks. Possibly there would be something > that > > can prevent actions to run if a property is set? How should we know > > without asking? We spent two days and did not find something, so we > > asked that question. If you don't like answering them, why did you > > answer at all? We know pretty well how to use conditions and all > that, > > we just wanted to know whether there is a trick now mentioned in the > > manuals, not more. How should we find out that by self-thinking? If > > this > > would be possible, this newsgroup would be obsolete. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > - > > ------ > > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools > > for > > yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune > > applications for parallel performance. > > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > > _______________________________________________ > > WiX-users mailing list > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ------- > > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > > _______________________________________________ > > WiX-users mailing list > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > _______________________________________________ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
