Oh yes, and let's not forget that Google isn't the only search engine on the planet too. :-)
On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jason Grant <ja...@flexewebs.com> wrote: > Once again I have to come back to this great thread - one of the best > discussions in the long time on this mailing list: > > - BBC uses H1 on the logo on the home page, but around the article > title on article specific page (e.g. > view-source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8312126.stm) > - Also worthy of note is that behind the logo on homepage they use the > full phrase of 'British Broadcasting Corporation' following the CSS > swapping > technique that was outlined > - Everything we post here is an opinion of course > - Following my recommendation(s) I think will achieve the best of all > worlds for a given site - I agree that '1 qualified customer is better than > 100 unqualified ones' > - Nowadays we really need to take into account mobile device > interoperability and usability and should also consider screen reader users > wherever relevant > > I am going to update my post to reflect some of the exceptions to the rule > we have discussed here, so that they are not lost in the long term. > > Thanks people and have a nice day, > > Jason > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Christian Fagan > <c...@fagandesign.com.au>wrote: > >> Thanks for all your responses....I didn't expect this topic to be so >> clouded. >> >> For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still >> remains....while Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any >> *governing >> body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is >> merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with >> alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is >> still.....an opinion. >> >> Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My >> personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there >> is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no >> reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My >> interpretation is that it is logical and important. >> >> Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread >> and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general >> consensus....but there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm >> still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad >> practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not >> bad *practice. >> >> H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, >> maybe the logo is not a heading at all.....or maybe it is the premier >> heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or >> an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be >> *something other than text? A logo perhaps? >> >> * >> To answer a few pointed questions: >> "Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to..." >> - from Darren Lovelock. >> I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so >> excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert >> and following up my opinion. >> It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly >> what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts >> seem to be professionals who have come up with a "best guess" system. >> >> In reference to: "Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they >> must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL" >> Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens >> of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. >> Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely >> from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? >> Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic >> structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? >> >> Wow, that is impressive....the purity of your knowledge must be profound. >> It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. >> >> Some examples for you to mull over: >> Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: >> - www.theage.com.au >> - www.smh.com.au >> - www.mycareer.com.au >> - www.domain.com.au >> - www.drive.com.au >> >> International sites: >> - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >> >> I love this line: "...using the the method I and many other good web >> designers have adopted:" >> >> Anyways, enough Darren bashing.... >> >> >> Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in >> Thailand): >> "In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting >> the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to >> your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to >> find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever >> dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified." >> >> I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective.... >> >> >> >> Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people >> on this list, which I appreciate. >> >> >> >> - Christian Fagan >> - Fagan Design >> - fagandesign.com.au >> - p: (+613) 9314-1841 >> >> >> >> Oliver Boermans wrote: >> >> 2009/10/16 Jason Grant <ja...@flexewebs.com> <ja...@flexewebs.com>: >> >> >> Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there. >> Explained here why you are >> wrong: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ >> >> >> Good link for this thread Jason. Although I don’t understand why the >> company name would be inappropriate semantically to use as the h1 on >> the home page. >> >> The home page represents the company. If I Google for a company with >> it’s name as a keyword I would expect to find their home page. Using >> it on every page of the site is a different matter. >> >> For this to work the 'logo' would be text which would be styled with >> CSS to look like the logo in a browser. As an alternative I expect the >> alt text of an image would likely suffice (not so sure on this one). >> >> To put on my hat with horns to present a possible issue with my own >> suggestion; I would point out that using a different structure between >> pages of a site can be confusing for a screenreader user; But then, >> home pages often are a different structure to topic-specific sub pages >> anyway so I don’t expect anyone would get upset about it. >> >> I’ve been doing this for a few years now so if I’m wrong I’m keen to >> be corrected! >> >> … >> >> The defence for using two h1 elements in a page makes some sense to me >> from the same perspective that it makes sense to put the company name >> in every page title alongside the subject of the page eg: "[title]SEO >> and semantics - WSG blog[/title]". >> >> You have to draw the line somewhere though, as too much emphasis is no >> emphasis at all. >> >> Interesting discussion - thanks to those at WDS09 who introduced me to >> this group! >> -- >> Ollie Boermans >> @ollicle >> >> >> ************************************************************ >> ******* >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org >> ******************************************************************* >> >> >> >> >> >> ******************************************************************* >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org >> ******************************************************************* >> > > > > -- > Jason Grant BSc, MSc > CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. > www.flexewebs.com > ja...@flexewebs.com > +44 (0)7748 591 770 > Company no.: 5587469 > > www.flexewebs.com/semantix > www.twitter.com/flexewebs > www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > ******************************************************************* > -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *******************************************************************
