I'm going to intersperse my own comments with yours so that there is a
closer appearance of a discussion.
On Aug 9, 2005, at 4:58 PM, David Froseth wrote:
Derick,
I have finally got what I think is a good bootable backup of my OS
X & 9 HD, using DiskWarrior and Carbon Copy Cloner.
Congratulations! Really, kudos!
Sadly, not many people do this with their computer systems at home.
However, IT professionals who have worked their entire careers in
either supercomputer environments such as banking or large financial
centers or complex hospital environments which have huge data
processing/computer centers do this all the time. They have this
process ingrained in themselves as standard procedure. Backup the
System First. Then lock out users, shut down all accounts except root
or System Administration and then make changes to the Hard Drives or
HDs such as partition modification/enhancement... or whatever. Test
the changes are reliable before returning the system to users. Do one
more thorough complete overall system check. Create a new and separate
backup set of the new system, before the users touch it, but after the
tests verify that everything is fine.
(Ouestion posed as a learning tool, why is this step important?)
Last step: Allow users back in and observe how everything hums along.
I haven't heard of Carbon Copy Cloner. I am always suspicious of
anything promising me a carbon copy of something as devilishly complex
as an HD. Copiers are great for paper. I can see everything quickly
on a page. A 2D or 3D representative snapshot of an HD is always
interesting; however that is only useful if I know what I'm looking at
and what to do with it. After all not all of us know how to read an
MRI either. The reasons are technical regarding why I'm suspicious of
cloners/copiers of HDs and this is not the forum to discuss it.
However, as your own understanding grows more complete you may have
your OWN reasons in time as well. The Good thing is that at least you
use multiple tools; I would recommend multiple tools which do slightly
different things from one another so that the investment of each one is
justified. This is a good strategy for home based systems. I would
consider Disk Genius, TechTool Pro 4, and DiskWarrior to be on the same
level of competitive technical saavy doing things differently yes, but
reliably. You would learn a bit more to about HDs, data and more just
from having to read the manuals of these analytical systems. I suggest
one resist the pull to look for one software with one magic button to
fix everything. Master the various details take the time to learn and
you'll eventually get a nice handle on things.
If you really decide to delve seriously at the engineering level you
can search for tomes at: www.fatbrain.com
I think some of my last YDL partitioning problems came from trying to
copy to and swap a new hard drive into my laptop without ever doing
any disk maintenance.
Yes. That would be a crisis of opportunity for late enlightenment,
wouldn't it? Kind of like understanding what one is in for after one's
wife or beloved gives birth.
Hopefully, one embraces the moment of awareness and pays attention to
what is going on more carefully, especially if one didn't before.
Better observations can lead to better decisions and actions. And very
fortunately, almost anything regarding computers, networks and
technology can be redesigned or undone more easily than other aspects
of human reality, such as voting for one's Senator or President.
At least one works through the difficulty as opposed to "letting things
fix themselves". It' almost never a good idea to allow that to happen.
If one is with responsible humans, the situation is different but with
a computer system allowing full automation is never a good idea unless
every action and procedure is comprehended. Which includes a solid
comprehension of the manufacturer's explanations and expectations
regarding the product used. Very few things are as "easy as pie"; and
when you learn how to make a pie you'll understand that it (the phrase)
refers to the person who gets to eat the pie, not the cook! Likewise,
the consumer experience is supposed to be "easy"; the
manufacturers/designers/programmers or any other builder or creative
role -- never is.
A little knowledge can give you enough confidence to get into big
trouble. Then you really learn something!
The sentence, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." , conveys
that same concept you expressed in your own terms. You'd be surprised
how many of these phrases are very similar in all cultures around this
Earth. Being human is an experience of learning and learning to
respect how much one doesn't yet know encouraging caution and attention
in any new endeavor" as one moves forward.
I think my original HD was so gummed up with broken permissions and
directories that the copy hard drive I installed in my computer was a
mess.
Now do you comprehend my suspicion about copy programs? The bad and
poorly designed programs of this type assume you know what you want and
what you are doing.
Whereas the majority of the truth is most users don't, for the same
reason that not everyone riding the train will comprehend the
conductor's job. The instructions in many such programs are very light
and skimpy. Explanations and alternatives are minimal. So it copied.
A better program, would have warned you of the unusual and problem
structures of the original disk and ask you if you wanted to copy those
malformed sectors also or would you allow it to repair the structures
and then copy the improvements. Of course, you always either pay more
for the better ones or they are always the one's you find out about too
late.
However, you most recent posting indicates that you "gummed" it up
again, only this time "better". This means you got to the same problem
as you complained about originally but did so more efficiently.
I think YDL and all other Linux distros could start by telling people
that if they plan on a partitioned multi-os system then clean up the
os's on the existing partitions. Do a disk first aid operation.
Most experienced people using Linux know this already as do other
professional engineers, etc. The problem is that most of the public
whose sole experience is either Windows or Macs believe that Linux
needs to "improve" and be like those OSs. This will not happen,
because to be like them is to share their limitations and proprietary
nature.
Terra Soft Solutions does as good a job of guiding users as I've ever
seen in nearly 15 years of continual experience in the so called IT
field. However the product they are offering is Linux for PowerPC
systems. Linux is a variant of Unix. This marriage of a GPL based OS
to enormously powerful processors is not an area one expects to find
people unfamiliar with programming, math and elementary science and
computer science concepts. Linux is a creature for engineers,
scientists and tinkering thinkers of all kinds of all sorts of fields,
but Linux is also extremely unforgiving, unfriendly and uncuddly. In
that sense, if your sole experience with computing is either Windows or
the Mac OS you are in for a lot of disappointing painful re-education
because Linux will not adapt to you; you must adapt to it. And frankly
those who refuse to educate themselves to make use of what Linux can do
really should stick with other OSs, because Linux is not going in that
direction for a long time. Linux is about a different kind of power;
full control of every possible thing a computer can do.
You can just get a hint of that by looking at a partition table. Look
carefully at what you are being told in the partition table which you
provided. Linux reveals everything it sees on the HD; the Mac OS
Classic or even X can only reveal what it sees. It doesn't see
everything because it is not designed to. Even other Mac applications
manipulating HD data can see only what the Mac sees and that is a
problem with Linux when you are using one drive. It's a problem
because any HD "repair" needs to be done only and exclusively in the
sectors where Mac OS data mount points begin and end and some repair
utilities DON'T DO THAT. THEY ASSUME the entire drive is available for
"repair" or they assume the user to understand enough to not wipe out
the Linux partitions while using the utility. Au contrare, mon ami.
This little "feature" is not understood usually until after this has
been implemented.
I don't think you should attempt to install YDL untill you have
mastered how to make a bootable clone of your OS X hard drive. I
could be way off on this, maybe it doesn't matter.
People come to Linux from all sorts of experiences. The learning curve
changes and cannot be standard for everyone, even if you believe it's
for "their own good", such a view is always counterproductive. It's
like all the human pleasures which can become vices to the point of
threatening one's life. Eventually one is forced or learns, by one's
self what one's elders was hammering into our ears nearly a generation
before. From "complete your studies", "stop smoking (or something
else)", "choose your friends carefully", etc.
In Linux, certain procedures should likewise be as standard as personal
hygiene, but they will remain personal. It is unlikely that any
procedures will be implemented in a standard way by anyone so one is
left with great freedom yes to really "gum things up beyond all
recognition" or follow just enough rules so that at least one sets up a
hard drive as neatly as one sets up the dinner table. That's my goal
here; and once you have the principles down you'll be able to set any
HD in any order you like (just like setting up a table). Think a while
and you'll notice Linux and Unix see things in terms of tables also.
Partition Tables. Hex Tables. All sorts of Tables. Your focus will
be the setting of the Table. Over time you'll be able to become an
artist at this; for now let's attend to the fundamentals and tools of
the trade.
Which tools?
Regarding creating partitions on ANY computer system. STICK WITH THE
TOOLS PROVIDED BY THE MANUFACTURER. Those tools are optimized for that
machine.
Why?
Because the fundamentals of exactly what that machine needs and what it
should be able to do is under the knowledge set of the same
manufacturer.
What about other tools?
If you don't know what the manufacturers tools do and to what extent
you can use them, any others may be redundant and an added cost as the
tools provided by the manufacturer does that already except you may not
know that.
Discussion:
Obviously the manufacturer at this point in time is Apple. In the
future, if you stick with the PowerPC community, it'll be YDL or
another toolset perhaps provided by Genesi or Pegasos. The procedure
will be similar to what you know. You already have the original
backups before the 8th; keep those pristine and unused. If you have
had to use OS 9 or X make a separate backup of the more current work in
each OS.
You will use the native Apple utilities running from a CD to wipe out
that entire drive.
Note the directions I'm giving do not conflict with the directions in
the file I recommended earlier:
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/support/installation/
guide2.2.shtml#install
Pay special attention to steps 8 and 9 on page 2. Make sure you select
"unallocated", instead of Mac OS Extended for the top (or first)
partition (this will be for Linux). Here's where I differ from Step 9,
when you select the 2nd partition (for OS 9) select Mac OS Standard.
When you select for the 3rd partition (for OS X) select again, Mac OS
Standard.
Why?
Because in double asterisks on page 2 it is explained that you can
access Mac OS files from within Linux best with that arrangement.
Otherwise, if you still intend to access Mac OS X while it is set for
hfs+ from within Linux, you will then have to use a "special set of
Linux commands" just to access those same Mac OS X files from within
Linux.
But what about the other stuff you have?
Don't touch em! You won't need them for anything to be done with these
procedures.
When the utilities Apple provided finish and the computer has given you
back Apple's CD which came with you. Then you move onto p. 5 or
Default Installation.
When you look at your partition map the partition for OS9 and OS X will
be hfs. If you want to study more detail, review the section on Custom
Installation.
Either way, complete the Linux installation process. When it is
completed, do not use the other Mac programs to try to examine Linux
partitions! IF you want to see how Linux is partitioned you can see
that very well WITHIN Linux itself AND within Linux you will also see
the Mac partitions. The Mac OS can't do that and Mac OS X won't do it.
You don't need ANYTHING else. In fact the utilities within Linux are
so flexible you can see even DOS and other partition structures of
other different systems if you get really really good at understanding
what you are seeing in partition tables and what information presented
to you means. That's a whole book in itself but at least this time if
you follow through
everything should look well as what is reflected like on p6 or line 12
of the installation section.
Let's see what happens as you go through this once more. If your
partition tables are not more orderly that would be time to call in the
Masters of the Universe team.
They know who they are.
Best wishes...
The one more thing:
Remember that pdisk reports and expects you to understand that it's
definition of sector block -- it's length -- (a sector of the HD) is
512bytes. That's it. Think about that a moment. NOT 512kilobytes,
but 512bytes. It appears upon close examination that you may have
ordered the sectors out of order yourself miscalculating the lengths of
each sector which in turn affects their mount points. Or it is possible
that one of the other utilities you have were used incorrectly; there
are many possibilities for error it is up to you to narrow down what
you did and why. I recommend keeping a journal for technical computer
work for your own reference so that you don't repeat certain errors or
make new errors based on incorrect assumptions.
This minutiae matters when you are adding and removing blocks manually;
however if anaconda is allowed to install automatically (after having
used the Mac Utilities above as instructed) you do not have to deal
with the details -- however you should know what the details are and be
able to follow what is going on, correct it and if need be do it
manually.
To help you a wee bit further, here are some definitions:
1 block = 512 bytes
1 MB = 2048 blocks
1 GB = 1000 MG
1 TB = 1000 GB
Now a bit of Algebra:
HERE x means multiply.
I want to create a sector 2G long, how many blocks would that be?
2GB x (1000MG/1GB) x (2048 blocks/1MB) = 4,096,000 blocks
I want to create a swap sector of 128 MB, how many blocks would that be?
128 MB x (2048 blocks/1MB) = 262,144 blocks
Now none of this information by itself is the answer; but applied
together it will get you closer to where you want to go.
_______________________________________________
yellowdog-newbie mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.terrasoftsolutions.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-newbie
_______________________________________________
yellowdog-newbie mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.terrasoftsolutions.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-newbie
