Siska, I've had my tea now.
I'll try to communicate my thoughts on this again in a slightly different way. Illusions come and go. I don't know how to completly stop them, or indeed if they can be stopped, or if stopping them entirely would be a wise thing to do. When in deep samadhi they are certainly halted, but begin again after coming out of samadhi. This is not good and not bad. The important thing is not to worry about creating illusions (such as the concepts of dualism/non-dualism), but to avoid becoming attached to these illusions. By 'attached' I mean believing they are real or important or have some kind of significance, or anything more than just illusions - passing clouds in the sky: sometimes white and fluffy, sometimes dark and foreboding, sometimes taking familar shapes, sometimes forming no discernable patterns at all. Just clouds. Just illusions. I hope that is more understandable. It sounds better to me...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > I can only follow you up to half of your post. Can you please explain more on > this part? > > ------------- > This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to > the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually > exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they > come and go, but are universally inclusive > ------------- > > Thanks, > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 00:13:51 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > Bill! expounds... > > This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness. > Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions. The concept > of non-duality is also an illusion. > > Illusions come and go. This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are > talking about. > > Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent. > > This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to > the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually > exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) > they come and go, but are universally inclusive. > > That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not > > necessarily or usually ongoing.) > > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is > > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen > > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back. > > > > > > siska, > > > > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the > > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's > > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions: > > > > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\ > > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540 > > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\ > > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> > > . > > > > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the > > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become > > ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice. > > > > I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue. > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception. > > > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception > > > > > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska] > > agree with you > > > > > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, > > > [siska] agree with you > > > > > > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not > > necessarily orà usually ongoing.) > > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is > > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen > > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back. > > > > > > siska > > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception. > > > > > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we > > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively. > > > > > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in > > > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually > > > ongoing.) > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your > > > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I > > > agree with what is being said here. > > > > > > > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and > > > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in > > > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to > > > imply in your previous post. > > > > > > > > siska > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen > > and > > > > non-dualism. > > > > > > > > --ED > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
