Siska, What I mean by all this teacher/student talk is:
Although I can learn from you and you can learn from me, the responsibility for your zen practice is entirely yours. It's the zen equivilent of 'caveat emptor'...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or > magical about them. > [siska] never think of koan as secretive or magical. Now that you mentioned > it, I find it interesting that some people must have thought so. > > [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student > [siska] I'm a student of anyone from whom I learn anything. But you may be > talking about teacher-student relationship in a zen perspective, which I have > not understood so far. I learned that there are lineage and some sort of > establishment in zen when it comes to this, which I still cannot relate to. > My current view is not to allow any authority, even in the form of zen > teacher, to shape our beliefs, or perceptions, or points of view. Afterall, > we've had enough of these to 'unload'. Learning can only come when we are > free from all these and knowledge is not the result of this learning. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:19:14 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > ---------- > > [Bill!] HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark > > on koan study on your own.ÃÂ ---------- > > [siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan > > study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible > > to do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate > > koans and verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making > > my own assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study > > without a teacher? > [Bill!-2] My statements prior to the one you reference above were only > saying you COULD do them on your own. I just wanted to make sure you didn't > think there was anything secretive or magical about them. The statement > above is telling you I don't think you SHOULD try them on your own. The > reasons for that are the same you've listed. > > ---------- > > [Bill!] If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend > > you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation).ÃÂ > > ---------- > > [siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is > > quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a > > while, which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some > > instructions, I'd like to try and see if it suits me. > [Bill! 2] Shikantaza (zazen) is exactly what you describe - simply sit and be > aware. If you can do that already you don't need koan study. The purpose of > koan study is to get you to shikantaza. > > > ---------- > > [Bill!] I am not a teacher.ÃÂ > > ---------- > > [siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another. And you have been a > > great teacher to me. > [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student. > > > ...Bill! > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > > > > Siska, > > > > The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize > > koans on your own. Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. > > There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm > > <http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm> is: > > > > "Still seeking a way to understand the meaning of life, Siddhartha set > > out for Buddhagaya. Near a grove, he sat down under a huge Bodhi tree. > > Silently he vowed, "Even if my flesh and blood were to dry up, leaving > > only skin and bones, I will not leave this place until I find a way to > > end all sorrow." He sat there for forty nine days. He was determined to > > discover the source of all pain and suffering in the world." > > > > Buddha's koan might be stated as 'What is the meaning of life?', or > > 'What is the source of all pain and sufferring?', or 'How can we bring > > an end to all sorrow?'; and very importantly he worked on this with the > > utmost determination, vowing not to quit until he either found the > > answer or died. > > > > This is what koan practice is. > > > > Buddha had no special (supernatural) powers. If he could do it, so > > could you. > > > > HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on > > koan study on your own. If you have to practice zen entirely on your > > own I would recommend you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind > > meditation). If you'd like instructions on that I'll post them or post > > links to them. > > > > I am not a teacher. JMJM is a Chan Teacher and I hope he responds as to > > if/how someone could begin zen/Chan practice on their own. I'd also be > > interested in his comments. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and > > then integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've > > described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. > > > [siska] I'd love to do koan study. It is not possible to do this > > without a teacher, is it? > > > > > > Thanks for your response Bill, it was such a relief that you get what > > I was trying to say. It is always difficult for me to put it into words. > > > > > > Ps: the red corvette sounds like a fun ride :-) > > > > > > siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:10:39 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > > > > Siska, My comments are embedded below: > > > > > > > [Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to > > respond. Why do you qualify decisions with 'big', > > > > [siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have > > 'longer' (?) impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to > > leave everything behind and go forth. I suppose we can do this by > > intuition, and perhaps we should. But sometimes I find that intuition is > > not intuition, there is still very subtle framework behind what comes up > > as intuition. > > > [Bill! 2] I know what you mean and I of course do that also. BUT, > > sometimes I think I might FIRST make the decision basen on impulse or > > 'intuition' (or homones) and then LATER JUSTIFY it with logic. This > > process can happen very, very quickly. Like deciding to buy a red > > Corvette convertible because it will retain it's value. Ha! > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other > > decision? > > > > [siska] I'd definitely be less concerned with this when it comes to > > deciding what I should have for lunch today, although I suppose this is > > dualism point of view? :-) > > > [Bill! 2} Okay, that's a key. You're concerned with how they will > > affect 'you' in the 'future'. Both 'you' and 'future' as I'm sure you > > know are illusory - but again I must confess I do the same thing myself. > > > > > > > [Bill!] I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that does not > > come from awareness. Where would it come from? Unless by 'non-attachment > > attitude' you just mean disinterst? > > > > [siska] I did not mean disinterest. Now, this is a little difficult > > for me to describe. > > > > > > > > The mind can be very tricky. Maybe, at one point, it experienced a > > state where it was 'un-attached to anything' (not sure if this is the > > right way of describing that state). When the mind is not in this state, > > it adopts what it regards as being non-attached as an 'attitude'. But > > because the mind is not actually in that state, choices and decisions > > made are still based on a framework instead of real intuition. > > > > > > > [Bill! 2] I can again relate to this. I think our discriminating mind > > quickly learns and adapts to this 'no-attachment' thing and soon begins > > to present things to you as if there are no attachments - but there are. > > They're just hidded a little better than they used to be. That whole > > process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and then > > integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've described > > above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. I'm also sure the > > process is never complete. > > > > > > > Feels like too much thinking going on in my head :-p > > > > > > > [Bill! 2] Yeah, I know the feeling! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
