I would say based on both my experience and the teachings that I have observed, that amorality is very close to immorality in that without the clear presence of moral rectitude there is nothing to prevent immoral intentions from arizing when unwholesome states arize in the mind. If Zen, as Bill proposes it were actually "direct awareness that occurs BEFORE the rising of and post-processing activites of the discriminating mind." He would be able to observe the actual presence and absence of moral rectitude in the mind, and see how these affect the actions that spring from intentions. The words are added later so we can speak about it, but absolute realities do not disapear for lack of words.
The natural condition of the mind is immoral: greed, hatred and delusion are our birthright as human beings, not Buddha nature, which really does sound like a religious assertion to me. What you see, is what you get, and what we see when we look inside is greed, hatred and delusion (unless you cultivated the eightfold path). These are the wellsprings of all unwholesome mindstates that lead to wrong intentions that in turn lead to wrong actions. Unless the this is specifically corrected with training in moral intentions, samadhi and right understanding, the mind remains as crooked as the day it was born. D. --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > ED, > > Daniel is correct. Zen is amoral. > > The reason for this is the dualistic concepts moral/amoral (like self/other, > good/bad, high/low, etc...) are products of your discriminating mind. Zen > (Buddha Nature)is direct awareness that occurs BEFORE the rising of and > post-processing activites of the discriminating mind. > > All the rest of Daniel's post below go on to address other concepts, > judgements and dogma that the discriminating mind creates to give the > illusion of self the illusion of control. Daniel implies that amoral is > immoral. That is not the case. Amoral is neither immoral or moral. It > implies something not bound by the illusory concept of morality - such as > Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "empty0grace" <empty0grace@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > I will leave this to the Zen-heads here to respond to definitively, but if > > I have understood Bill correctly, the answer would seem to be yes, that zen > > is fundamentally amoral. Hence Zen and art of [insert martial art of > > choice]. If this is true,then either Zen never was Buddha Dharma (as Bill > > asserts) or those aspects of Zen used to enhance the art of killing > > represent a profound corruption of the Buddha's teaching. You see in the > > Theravada, and in most of the Mahayana as well, a thief breaking into a > > house is recognized as possessing great mindfulness, but this is clearly > > not right mindfulness. Lacking the qualities of moral rectitude, > > self-integration and generosity that morality bestows, this kind of > > mindfulness cannot lead to the emergence of consciousness into the > > Unconditioned, Nibbana. I cover this more thoroughly in my talk on my > > YouTube Channel: The Adornment of Virtue (on the top row). > > > > A mind in which there is crookedness, remorse, violence, untruth, poor self > > esteem or self contradictions is not capable of true and pure samadhi, and > > cannot conform to Reality. So morality protects the mind for the > > development of unification of mind - samadhi, which in turn supports > > insight, which in turn leads to release, and which altogether enter upon > > the Deathless. To understand this, one needs to understand conditionality, > > otherwise one is blind to this. So here one sees how right understanding > > supports the development of both moral rectitude and samadhi. So I would > > say that right understanding of the conditionality and generation of > > wholesome mental factors does indeed help, very much. > > > > Best wishes, Daniel > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I would say therefore that mindfulness, if supported by sila, > > > (virtue, morality) is the womb of bodhi." > > > > > > Does the above statement underscore a fundamental difference in emphasis > > > between Zen and Theravada Buddhism practice? > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], chance <dharmachazz@> wrote: > > > > > > > exquisite. "we are what we think, having become what we thought". this > > > post is worthy of analysis which creates syntesis, relatively. > > > > <font color="#ff0000">never trouble trouble till trouble troubles > > > you.</font> > > > > Daniel had posted: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The Nature of Right-Mindfulness: a Theravadin Perspective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought I might post this since we have been discussing the nature > > > of mindfulness. Here is one possible Theravada perspective. Mindfulness > > > itself cannot be defined because it belongs to the realm of ultimate > > > realities: actualities that cannot be broken down into finer subjective > > > experiences. However, the classical Theravada way of discussing absolute > > > realities is to discuss them in terms of their functions and > > > characteristics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The function of mindfulness is to keep the object in view by > > > neither forgetting it nor allowing it to disappear." (U Pandita: In This > > > Very Life). This explains the literal meaning of the word sati (Pali) or > > > smrti (Sanskrit) as remembering. Sati is the remembering of what needs > > > to be remembered in any situation. It remembers the object, objects or > > > processes of contemplation (mentality/materiality) and also what we are > > > doing. When you have the experience of going off to do something in your > > > home, and then forget what it was you had set out to do, or when you > > > begin to say something and then forget what it was that you were going > > > to say, you have lost your sati/smrti. It is often confused with > > > concentration. A meditator can have very strong concentration, and still > > > have a lapse of mindfulness. This is what happens when we have been on > > > retreat for some time and our mind loses the breath, and we go off > > > fantasies, lust or anger. Have you noticed how powerful those moments of > > > anger or lust can be on retreat, or how vivid the fantasies? That is > > > because the mind goes into them with all the power of the samadhi that > > > has been generated in the prior days. It is like a heavy fast moving > > > train jumping the track. The mass or weight of the train is the samadhi. > > > The momentum is the energy in the mind, and the jumping off the track is > > > the lapse of mindfulness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mindfulness also has the function of protecting the mind. Somewhere > > > in the Dhammapada (sorry I don't have time to source it), the Buddha > > > said something like: "Just as rain cannot enter a well thatched roof, > > > defilement cannot enter the mind one who is fully mindful." Continuity > > > in the state of mindfulness therefore brings with it a great purity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Non-superficiality is an important characteristic of mindfulness. As > > > mindfulness deepens, the objects of contemplation, in this case the flow > > > of mentality and materiality, are increasingly penetrated. At first the > > > breath is coarse and not clearly felt, but over time mindfulness reveals > > > the finer currents of sensation that make up the breath, just so with > > > every other aspect of both five aggregates. Just as a stone sinks to the > > > bottom of a river, mindfulness leads consciousness and understanding to > > > gradually penetrate and eventually completely permeate our experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Buddha said, "Mindfulness is everywhere useful." It is the one > > > mental factor that will develop all of the necessary wholesome mental > > > factors that support awakening. For example, the continuous application > > > of mindfulness rouses energy in consciousness. The continuous setting up > > > face to face with the objects of contemplation develops samadhi, and as > > > the mind penetrates its present experience more and more deeply with the > > > maturing of mindfulness, more and more is seen and understood. In this > > > way mindfulness develops understanding and insight. As experience > > > deepens and wisdom reveals the four noble truths, the mind gains trust, > > > sadha/sradh, and begins to rest in its experience. The settling of the > > > mind under the influence of samadhi and trust brings tranquility. These > > > last three together bring intense lucidity and purity to the mind, which > > > in turn enable more wisdom. In this way all of the 37 requisites of > > > enlightenment are developed. I would say therefore that mindfulness, if > > > supported by sila, (virtue, morality) is the womb of bodhi." > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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