Siska, Sorry, the proper word should be wisdom, instead of intelligence. It is not easy to go nuts, you have to pass qualification test by Bill first. Anthony
--- On Fri, 27/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 27 May, 2011, 6:21 PM Hi Anthony, I cannot relate seeing impermanence, suffering and no-self to being intelligence. But being nuts sound like much more fun than being intelligence. Siska From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT) To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Siska, I had no idea on 'nyana'. Thanks to your explanation, I learned that it is insight into three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and no-self. Besides you and Daniels, we have Mike, who was going on this direction of samadhi and vipassana. But I don't know if he is still on this tack. "In my opinion", nyana is for intelligent people like you, while kensho is designed for crazy ones like me. If I am not nuts enough, I have Bill to fall back on. In other words, 'kensho' and 'satori' are realization that the world is not at all logical. Otherwise, you don't see so many disasters, suffering, terror and other horrifying things. In order to understand them, I have to go nuts myself. On the other hand, nyana aims for intelligent answer to the world. I cannot say which one is right or wrong, much less saying they are the same. They and other 84,000 dharma approaches provided by the Buddha give you a choice. Anthony --- On Wed, 25/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 25 May, 2011, 9:29 PM Hi Bill, The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first glimpse. If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is experienced only once. Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is seeing one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very quickly and it is very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is where one sees the three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and no-sef by experience. It is also very clear when it happens. That is why I concluded these two are same experience, referred to differently in different traditions. But I'm not sure. I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart from Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before? Siska From: "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41 -0000 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Siska, I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'. It does imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and 'initial'. As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant. I think it is a term mainly used in Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as koan study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to push the student to experience Buddha Nature quickly. For that reason the first experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting. After that there is a long period of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the student cultivate and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their everyday life. This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally experienced the student is much better prepared. I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is: 'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly realize you are soaking wet. Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into a swimming pool! You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what happened. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as > first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once? > > Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended any > zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative experience > where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is kensho. Whatever I > think I know about kensho is only based on other people's descriptions. And > these descriptions seem to be similar to an experience referred to as > nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation retreat. > > Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your comparison > ;-) > > When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho, I'll > let you know whether these two are the same :-) > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:17:33 > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > Siska, > > The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism. It > was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the zendo where > I received instruction. > > I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'. That might not be the actual > Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told. It refers to an > event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains awareness of > Buddha Nature. It implies an awareness that is of short duration and fades > quickly over time. > > This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great > enlightenment'. 'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha Nature > is very deep and long-lasting. > > This is my understanding of these two terms. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the > > descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) > > experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada. > > > > Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction). > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08 > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism > > > > The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic > > categories as follows: > > > > > > I. Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna) > > > > 1. Right understanding > > > > 2. Right intention > > > > II. Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila) > > > > 3. Right speech > > > > 4. Right action > > > > 5. Right livelihood > > > > III. Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi) > > > > 6. Right effort > > > > 7. Right mindfulness > > > > 8. Right concentration > > > > > > o Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble > > Eightfold Path. > > > > o Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and > > II, in my obsevation/knowledge/belief. > > > > o zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of > > category III. > > > > ------- > > > > Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in > > kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense > > of an absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing; > > a sense of freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and > > deeply into the nature of things, without discriminating or discursive > > thinking. > > > > The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been > > labeled 'realizing Buddha Nature". > > > > I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner > > at his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this > > accomplishment or non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing > > the above state. > > > > And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised > > to ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori > > observe any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have > > experienced kensho-satori? We do not know. > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one > > advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing > > Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen. > > > > > > > > Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices, > > experiences of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to > > arise. > > > > Thanks, ED > > >
