Mike, IMO...Knowledge consists of concepts and relationships between those concepts. The origin for the concepts do not make any difference. The concepts could be based on real experience, experience by proxy or surrogate, revelation or delusion. The concepts formed from allthese are illusory.
In the zen teaching story below the 'friend' who's knocking at your door is maya. It's used to help the student quiese the dicriminating mind that's like a methadrine-junkie that just cannot abide being still even for one second. This state is referred to in historical zen literature as 'monkey mind'. It's contantly on the move and flits aimlessly from place to place, never stopping. I meant the 'friend' in the story below to stand for anything that can divert your attention and focus from Buddha Mind. As you know maya can come in any form, and many, maybe all, of the forms are very seductive and alluring to your discriminating mind. One of the most seductive is the illusion of 'knowledge', the illusion of 'insight', the illusion that you have just acquired (or been given) something important, something of cosmic importance. Now you finally 'understand', or at least are beginning to understand. IMO I think your statement below, "...I think you're too easily dismissing something you know very little about (IMO)" is incorrect. I do know a lot about the thirst for knowledge. I am very attracted to knowledge. It does have a strong pull for me and I know I am very susceptible to being mislead by the desire for it. This in fact was the #1 hurdle I had to overcome (or knock down) in order to realize Buddha Nature, and is certainly still the #1 challenge in my continuing practice - that is how to maintain Buddha Nature while also engaging my discriminating mind. As I repeat on this forum over and over, illusions are not the real barrier to realizing Buddha Nature - and that includes the illusion of knowledge. The barrier is attachments - attachments to your illusions including attachement to knowledge. In closing I want to draw your attention to the caveat on my previous post of "I would...advise anyone praticing zazen..." My comments were directed to those wanting to practice zazen, not to those on any other kind of path including Theravada's knowledge-seeking subjective meditation. Since this is a Zen Forum and not a Theravada Forum, I feel compelled to point out fundamental diffrences between the two, and this Theravada belief in, emphasis on and quest for 'knowledge' is a big, big difference. As usual this is all 'IMO'. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > >I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like > these is: > > >'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for > tea.' > > > The problem being that your friend might have even more important news than > what you're doing at the time, that you'd ignore at your peril. To be honest, > I think you're too easily dismissing something you know very little about > (IMO). Nyanas/nanas are simply stages of knowledge about the body/mind you > come to know thru experience in insight meditation > (impermanence/no-self/suffering; cause and effect; etc). It's not just > conceptual knowledge - it's knowledge that comes from the deepest experience > of ultimate reality. > > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 28 May 2011, 17:29 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > >  > Siska, > > I don't really know what 'nyanas' are, but from what I've gleaned from > reading the posts about them on this forum I'd say that Japanese Zen Buddhism > does not teach these. That is not to say there aren't some strange and > interesting things that happen on the way to realizing Buddha Nature, but > there is not a categorization or heirarchy of steps you need (or might) go > through to reach kensho/satori. > > I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and advise > anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the appropriate zen > teaching analogy about how to deal with things like these is: > > 'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on your > door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell him you're > busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for tea.' > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > >Not that I know of > > > > I see. > > > > Actually, that was what I was curious about. > > > > I've read a lot on nyanas years ago. In fact, in Mahasi tradition where I > > started with meditation, the practice kind of evolve around nyanas, as > > described in below article. But I am no longer interested in it. > > > > Btw, interestingly (and wisely, I think), in this same tradition, we are > > also taught of kilesa (mental defilements) that may arise during > > meditation. And one of the kilesas is nyana. > > > > siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:25:49 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > nyanas in zen? > > > > Not that I know of. > > --ED PS: This interchange below taken from the Internet concerning > > nyanas or nanas, may be of interest to you. "For Buddhists, Have > > you ever heard about Vipassana nana sixteen step? Theravada Buddhism > > regards Vipassana (insight meditation) as the highest dharmma practice > > to purify mind and to liberate frome the suffering. However, the > > phenomena of experience in practice seems to be so mysterious. I have > > read Vipassana nana (insight meditation experience) which is classified > > into sixteen steps but I need more details about this point. il 5, 2011 > > at 10:46 am > > <http://mysticbanana.com/for-buddhist-have-you-ever-heard-about-vipassan\ > > a-nana-sixteen-steps-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-294828> > > Joe B answers: > > > > I was a vipassan monk doing intensive Vipassana meditation for some > > years in Asian monasteries. > > > > To get through the Nyanas you need to do intensive meditation and mostly > > with a trained monk from that specific tradition. > > > > As one passes through the various Nyanas certain things may happen to > > one's body. These can be all sorts of strange and unusual sensations. > > One is generally advised to ignore the sensations and concentrate on the > > object of meditation, which is often just to watch and see the breath > > come and go and observe how it effects our body. > > > > Nyana's are level's of insights about life and how we get > > through it. > > > > The first Nyana is called Nama Rupa ( body and mind) and if we really > > understand that Nyana we will see that everything we experience, > > emphasis on EVERYTHING, is first filtered through our minds. Normally we > > are completelly unaware of this dynamic but if we can become aware of > > it, it dramatically effects how we we experience everything. > > > > Once we stop intensive meditation the insights gained from Vipassand > > commonly fade from our lives unless we do one of two things. 1. Unless > > we maintain the practise. 2. Or unless we were very succesfull with our > > Vipassana meditations and achieved the higher Nyana's. > > > > Most Westerners are not that successful though, as we are just either to > > angry or neurotic etc. > > > > One generally has to seek out Vipassana teachers to get proper guidance. > > Google is great for this!! > > > > Also a big part of Vipassana practise is to do everything mega slowly > > and observe what happens second by second e.g. when walking lightly > > concentrate on one's feet. When eating, concentrate on sensations in > > the mouth. When brushing one's teeth actually concentrate on the > > sensations in the mouth etc. > > > > Do everything slowly and mindfully, that's the basis of Vipassan > > practise. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > PS. Not all Theravada think Vipassana is the highest way, it seems > > Buddha did not practise Vipassana but rather Samatha meditation which > > leads to the 8 Jhana mind states called Divine Homes. > > > > It seems Vipassana became a popular method of meditation after a Sri > > Lanka monk called BuhhhaGosa ( BG) wrote his commentary on Buddhism. > > > > BG wrote an instruction manuel on meditation (VisudhiMaggha) and from > > that various forms of meditation arose. > > > > It seem BG was actually a Vedic scholar and included lots of ancient > > Hindu practises into his commentary." > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > nyanas in zen? > > > > Siska > > > > > > Hi Mike and siska, See below. --ED > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul> > > > > "Buddhist parallels > > > > In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the > > "Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to ten > > are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas): > > > > * Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana) > > * Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana) > > * Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana) > > * Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana) > > * Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana) > > * Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana) > > > > Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this > > experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul#cite_note-5> : > > > > The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, called > > this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night > > is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the soul > > nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is > > instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth > > doing or caring about without them. > > > > These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that > > the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which is > > independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel > > Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the sequence > > of mental states: > > > > The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and > > the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all > > remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. (âââ¬Ã¦) These maps, > > Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our > > minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any > > tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and body. > > > > Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi ED, > > > > > > A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas > > (or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are states > > of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating > > (samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are > > (16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and become > > acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our > > attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence > > > > > > and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the > > nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect). The > > jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're > > useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana. > > > > > > Mike > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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