Kirk, IMO...Any perception of 'order' is an illusion created within the human brain by the discriminating mind.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "kirk crist" <kcrist9@...> wrote: > > there is order bill just not the humans brain definition of it > > From: Bill! > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 3:42 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > Anthony, > > You can 'deduce' all you want. That doesn't make your deductions real. They > may be and they may not. I can see what I think are footprints in the snow > and deduce they were made by Bigfoot. That doesn't make Bigfoot real - > although I might realy, truly believe in his existence. > > Experience is real, nothing else. And that doesn't mean your perceptions of > experience, that means just your raw, unfiltered experience. I call the > awareness of that Buddha Nature. > > I do work in computers. They are a manifestation of logic and sequential time > - at least finite state (digital) computers are. Reality is not a > manifestation of logic or sequential time no matter how much humans would > like it to be. Reality is a manisfestation of chaos - no patterns, no rules, > no cause-and-effect, no flowing time sequence (past, present, future): Just > THIS! Only NOW! > > ...Bill! > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à > > I don't deny that you experience 'just this', so you think it is real. On > > the other hand, you don't need to experience everything to deduce that some > > of them are real. You believe jumping from a high building will cause > > death. You don't have to experience it. If you did, you would have to talk > > to us from heaven. That is what is called 'anti-science'. I understand you > > do computer software services, when you sort out your customer's problem, > > you believe it is real in the sense that the customer will run it well. Do > > you have to run their system every minute? Since it may go wrong although > > it is fine at the moment. > > à > > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 5:47 PM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > à > > Anthony, > > > > I DO believe that jumping from a high building will cause death. I'm not > > arguing that. What I am arguing is that it is a belief and not an > > experience, therefore it is not real. It's only a belief - a concept. > > > > Just THIS! is experience and only an experience, therefore it is real. The > > term 'Just THIS!' which I use to communicate and the concept of 'Just > > THIS!' which you might form as a result of my communication are just terms > > and concepts. They are not real. You may believe in them if you wish but > > that doesn't make them real. If you experience 'Just THIS!' (Buddha Nature) > > then you will know it is real. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > ÃÂà > > > If jumping from a high building will get oneself killed is not real, I > > > don't know what is real. Do you want to try it to find whether it is real? > > > ÃÂà > > > 'Only just this is real is another of your belief system. > > > ÃÂà > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 9:00 AM > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂà > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > You're partially correct. > > > > > > That is part of my belief system, but it's not real - it's just a belief > > > system. > > > > > > Only Just THIS! is real. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > So that is your belief system, and it is real. > > > > ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 4:52 PM > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > If you're asking would I jump off a 9-story building, the answer is no, > > > > and the reason is because I would be afraid of getting hurt or killed. > > > > And yes, this is because of my belief in cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > If you're asking about the raw experience of jumping off a 9-story > > > > building I'd say the experience when you landed would be pretty severe > > > > and your discriminating mind probably wouldn't have much of a chance to > > > > create such determinations as 'gee, this hurts', or 'this is bad', or > > > > 'I don't think I'll do that again!'. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > While I can see that your statement regarding Buddha Nature > > > > > experience makes (zen) sense. You have to explain the cause and > > > > > effect of a person jumping from a nine story building. Does it have a > > > > > determinant effect? Is it 'raw'? > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@ > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 10:29 AM > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' if you have > > > > > faith in the 'proof', have faith in the scientific method, have faith > > > > > in logic and human concept of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > All belief systems are built on faith, and science is such a system. > > > > > > > > > > Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, un-categorized, > > > > > un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha Nature) can be accpeted > > > > > without faith. It is the only real thing you have. All else are > > > > > concepts and beliefs - and are based on faith, not immediate, raw > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, dinosaurs, > > > > > > supernova... can. Science and > > > > > > historyÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > are as much a belief system as the knowledge that jumping from a > > > > > > nine story building without your psychic guru will get killed. They > > > > > > are less of that than Yehowa asking you to kill the people you > > > > > > conquered, and Buddha presenting a flower at the Vulture Peak. > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a belief system > > > > > > than our theory of matter, molecules, atoms, atomic particles, > > > > > > hadrons, quarks, etc..ad infinitum? > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a belief system. > > > > > > > Many times they run counter each other. For instance, a scientist > > > > > > > was lecturing on our solar system of the earth rotating around > > > > > > > the sun. A woman rose from seat and declared it nonsense. She > > > > > > > said, 'the earth is flat, supported by a huge turtle.' 'Who > > > > > > > supports the turtle?', she was asked. 'Oh, you stupid. It is > > > > > > > supported by another turtle. And still anothor turtle. It is > > > > > > > turtles all the way down.' That is a belief system. > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂìÃÂâ¦ÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Grasshopper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂìÃÂâ¦ÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 'historical > > > > > > > facts' and 'science' aren't based on a belief system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ 'ÃÂÃ'â∠> > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâÂÂÃÂâÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂâÂÂÃÂìÃÂÃ'ââ¾ÃÂâÂÂÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂìÃÂâ¦ÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Belief systems and historical facts are different things. It is > > > > > > > > OK to deify Buddha in sutras or any scriptures compiled in the > > > > > > > > name of Buddha, as long as you bear that in mind. However, > > > > > > > > historical facts such as the real life of Buddha and that of > > > > > > > > the sixth Patriarch had better be maintained in as close to > > > > > > > > history as possible. I consider the latter a 'science'. > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ 'ÃÂÃ'â∠> > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâÂÂÃÂâÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂâÂÂÃÂìÃÂÃ'ââ¾ÃÂâÂÂÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂìÃÂâ¦ÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ 'ÃÂÃ'â∠> > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâÂÂÃÂâÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂâÂÂÃÂìÃÂÃ'ââ¾ÃÂâÂÂÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÂÃ'ÃÂâÃÂâââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂìÃÂâ¦ÃÂáÃÂÃ'ÃÂ'ÃÂâââÂÂìàáÃÂÃ'ââÂ¬à ¡ÃÂâÂÂÃÂà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony and ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of the Flower > > > > > > > > Sermon as absolute fact. I just assume they are mythic to a > > > > > > > > greater or lessor extent. Whether or not any of these things > > > > > > > > written about in the Sutras, the Bible or any other Holy Books > > > > > > > > actually happened is not important to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are containted in the > > > > > > > > Sutras; the 'seed' of Zen is revealed in the Flower Sermon; and > > > > > > > > the 'seed' of zen (Buddha Nature) already exists in every > > > > > > > > sentient being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, "ED" > > > > > > > > <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See: > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature > > > > > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. Anyway, what > > > > > > > > > matter to me is > > > > > > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - and that's > > > > > > > > > all that > > > > > > > > > matters to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu > > > > > > > > > <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th century, while > > > > > > > > > > the Buddha > > > > > > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in the 2,000 year > > > > > > > > > gap? Did > > > > > > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to transmit the > > > > > > > > > dharma? Or > > > > > > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to spread the untold > > > > > > > > > teaching? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
