Mike,
I was going to mention ascetic practices/aspects when you brought up the
pain/bliss interaction in your sitting (I let it go, but look! You found
it anyway! *L*).
You said: "I've gone from the most intense white-hot pain to the most
ecstatic bliss in an instant." Sounds like what ascetics seek to do.
Endure this, get that ( I realize this is but an aspect of your
practice, and not its focus).
While a sort of overall balance may be developed in working with the
tension between pain & pleasure, and can expand our capacities for both,
the Middle Way doesn't lie stretched between them. Buddha learned
lessons from both, as we all can while caught in life's tides, but he
didn't strike a bargain to merely split the difference. ;)
Everything instructs, but we needn't attend to everything to realize this.
KG
PS - To be clear, this is not a commentary on your practice Mike, or
anyone else's. Just speaking to the general themes.
On 9/11/2012 8:49 PM, mike brown wrote:
JM,
Isn't that what the ascetics tried to do to reach a yogic union with
Brahma, but Buddha rejected? In the sutras Buddha talks about being
mindful of the breath/body. Do you really mean "detach"? I'm not sure
how long you could survive being Enlightened if you couldn't put food
to your mouth when you're hungry (that's not being facetious).
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected]
*Cc:* mike brown <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 1:21
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: suffering
If I may add to this...
My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In
other words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our
physical body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to
enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance
of our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-)
On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
ED,
I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're
taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach
us insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can
honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more,
sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my
life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is
when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone
from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an
instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the
pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and
passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual
understanding.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* ED <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering
Bill! and Mike,
Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain?
--ED
--- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...>
<mailto:BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> Merle,
>
> I am also 66!
>
> I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're
pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned...
>
> Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for
yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not
meet up with your expectations and disappoints you.
>
> You do not have to suffer.
>
> The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've
seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't
have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for
themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make
do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't
act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little
condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you
should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them.
>
> Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will
suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be
envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they.
Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have
expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with
others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this
disappoints them so they suffer.
>
> Zazen can help...
>
> ...Bill!
