Siska, When we see any being as it is that is enlightenment (realization is my preferred word) whether that being is itself realized or not.
Seeing oneself as unenlightened one must be unenlightened, at least partially. Seeing oneself as enlightened you could be fooling yourself, most likely are. Seeing the world as it actually is is realization of its reality. How do you know which is what? Not an easy test and it's easy to fool yourself.... Just keep trying to see the true nature of things and one by one the veils of illusion drop away. Whenever you realize what something is not you move closer... This discussion refers to the true nature of the world of forms. The other approach (which Bill seems to think is the only one) is to reach a meditative state (zazen) in which consciousness no longer recognizes the world of forms so one goes directly to the source (Buddha Nature). That's fine so long as one is in meditation but just because consciousness is no longer aware of the world of forms doesn't mean they aren't there. They are still there and even the greatest Zen master soon has to return to that world of forms. But in that world of forms the source (Buddha Nature) is still there. One just has to look for it as it is revealed by the illusions that make up the world of forms as they continually manifest the source which is their only being.... Meditation is the easy part of Zen, it's bringing Zen back into the world of forms that's the challenge. Edgar On Feb 20, 2013, at 7:51 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Edgar, > > So when we see unenlightened beings, is that experience reality or illusion? > > Similar question, when we see ourselves as unenlightened, is that reality or > illusion? > > How do you tell which is what? How do you know which is what? > > Siska > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:39:24 -0500 > To: <[email protected]> > ReplyTo: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Fw: peek a boo ... > > > Hi Siska, > > > Thanks for the cogent question.... > > All that exists is reality, so in that sense all that exists is Zen. > > However reality is a magician's trick where things are not as they appear. If > we take the illusion of the trick as reality we are unenlightened, but if we > take the exact same trick as the illusion it actually is we are enlightened. > > All beings, being necessarily part of reality, do have Buddha Nature since > all things ARE Buddha Nature (tao, or what I call ontological energy). > However it's a matter of the person REALIZING this or not, whether he/she > realizes he/she is already enlightened and always has been. That comes only > with seeing the true nature of things, that they are illusions which reveal > reality, and precisely how this works.... When this is understood then > reality can be directly experienced. > > Hope this clarifies it a little... > > Best, > Edgar > > > > On Feb 20, 2013, at 12:42 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> If I remember correctly, you were the one who told me, when I first joined >> this group to learn more about Zen, that all beings have Buddha nature, >> already enlightened in the first place. >> >> Now you are saying there are unenlightened beings.... >> >> I don't get it.... >> >> Siska >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:10:28 -0500 >> To: <[email protected]> >> ReplyTo: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Fw: peek a boo ... >> >> >> Siska, >> >> >> Because they ruined the perfect naturally produced forms of the stones by >> cementing them all together in a mindless unenlightened mish mash. Did you >> see Merle's photo? >> >> Of course in the deepest sense everything is reality therefore everything is >> Zen, but this artificial concoction is the reality of illusion, produced by >> illusion, by unenlightened beings, and thus is Zen only when seen as NOT >> being zen! >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Feb 19, 2013, at 10:25 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Doesn't Zen include everything, including the so called act of dumb >>> Chinese? Why is this one Zenless? >>> >>> Siska >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:49:00 -0500 >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> ReplyTo: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Fw: peek a boo ... >>> >>> >>> Here is where Zenless dumb Chinese absolutely ruin the beautiful natural >>> shapes of these stones by pasting them together in a hodge podge.... >>> >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> On Feb 14, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Merle Lester wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <IMG_6116.jpg> >>>> >>>> IMG_6116 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > >
