Mike, And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning...
Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Edgar, > > And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>; > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad > Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM > > > Mike, > > > Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather > than get out of the way... > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >> >> Bill!, >> >> And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all >> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony! >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org>; >> To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; >> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad >> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM >> >> >> Edgar, >> >> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could >> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you >> needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your >> parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent >> the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through >> teaching. >> >> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and >> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you >> but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when >> you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on >> your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> > >> > Bill, >> > >> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before >> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as >> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. >> > >> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. >> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no >> > longer relevant.... >> > >> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha >> > Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. >> > >> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need >> > a teacher to start breathing when you were born? >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > >> > > Edgar, >> > > >> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all >> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some >> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to >> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain >> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan. >> > > >> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some >> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was >> > > specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to >> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher. >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Bill, >> > > > >> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha >> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to >> > > > point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its >> > > > Buddha Nature. >> > > > >> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to >> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan.... even >> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... >> > > > >> > > > Edgar >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Edgar, >> > > > > >> > > > > I agree with Joe here. >> > > > > >> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically >> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require >> > > > > a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first >> > > > > koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" >> > > > > and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' >> > > > > means". >> > > > > >> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, >> > > > > there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, >> > > > > although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan >> > > > > is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on >> > > > > the meaning of the actual content. >> > > > > >> > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was >> > > > > with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen >> > > > > masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a >> > > > > teacher:student relationship at one time. >> > > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Edgar, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes >> > > > > > a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What >> > > > > > are you all hung up about? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; >> > > > > > after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was >> > > > > > not koans. Either, "no need", or "no aptitude". >> > > > > > >> > > > > > From my point of view, after a point, it was: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > "No need for gumdrops along the way". >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hail! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this >> > > > > > way, in some life. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --Joe >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Joe, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively >> > > > > > > snipped is this >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed >> > > > > > > to believe in as an orthodox zennist. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be >> > > > > > > discarded in a satori. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the >> > > > > > > sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill >> > > > > > > does... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually >> > > > > > > expressed something but to discard it... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Even Bill knows that... >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >
