Edgar,
I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana:
"...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees
them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms cease permanently."
I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your "...see them
for what they truly are...".
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it.
>
> Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to
> wade through it all..
>
> Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's
> only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general
> (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a
> state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms
> but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In
> nirvana all forms cease permanently.
>
> Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all
> one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form
> altogether.
>
> But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is
> equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to
> the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and
> reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good
> or bad, or enlightened or not.
>
> Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen
> in the proper light.....
>
> That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just
> cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world
> of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil
> evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is
> doing the judging....
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> > Edgar,<br/><br/>There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also
> > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been
> > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person
> > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original
> > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where
> > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma
> > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or
> > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma
> > impossible.<br/><br/>Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are
> > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..<br/><br/>>He who
> > believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too,
> > have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment***
> > (buddhanet.net)<<br/><br/>>Since basic nature transcends all duality and is
> > ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and
> > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the
> > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to
> > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at
> > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable
> > (angel-fire.com)<<br/><br/>>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that
> > the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices
> > as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having
> > purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she
> > otherwise would have.[92]<br/>(Wiki)<br/><br/>>The Japanese Tendai/Pure
> > Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the
> > karma that would otherwise bind one in
> > saá¹sÄra.[89][90]<br/><br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
> > iPad
>
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