Edgar,

FINALLY!  A good really, really good question!  It's so good I'll respond 
line-by-line:

> ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes.

No, everyone does not.  A Buddha does not.  And becoming a Buddha (or more 
correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is all about.

Here is an example I gave recently of a Buddha who has no intentions or 
purposes:

"Too lazy to be ambitious,
I let the world take care of itself.
Ten days' worth of rice in my bag;
a bundle of twigs by the fireplace.
Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?
Listening to the night rain on my roof,
I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out."
- Ryokan

>That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms...

Having intentions and purposes (and logic and judgments and classifications, 
etc...) is what a delusive life is like in the pluralistic, delusive World of 
Forms.  But this is not real.  All this is delusion.

> Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it 
> isn't real?

There's nothing wrong with that, unless you really believe (are attached to) 
these delusions.  They are not real because they are delusions.

Zen practice first enables you to halt your intellect's creation of pluralism 
and all the other delusions so you may experience reality (Buddha Nature).  It 
then helps you re-integrate your delusions without attachments by recognizing 
them for what they are - delusions.

This process is IMO the meaning of the zen aphorism "First there is a mountain; 
then there is no mountain; then there is."

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life 
> is like in the REAL world of forms...
> 
> Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it 
> isn't real?
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > No, I don't think so.
> > 
> > It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map 
> > and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a 
> > purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is 
> > useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw.
> > 
> > If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have 
> > much meaning.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > > 
> > > Yes, that's what reality is!
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means 
> > > > > it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS 
> > > > > accurately part of reality...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > PBS,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 
> > > > > > 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to 
> > > > > > communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should 
> > > > > > never be mistaken for reality.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <pandabananasock@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill!:
> > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking 
> > > > > > > for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads 
> > > > > > > you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of 
> > > > > > > the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. 
> > > > > > > Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, 
> > > > > > > and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. 
> > > > > > > Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again!
> > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of 
> > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and Karma
> > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three
> > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is
> > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a
> > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of
> > > > > > > the act itself.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is,
> > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes
> > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different
> > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit
> > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present.
> > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the
> > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something
> > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic
> > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good"
> > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS!
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >...Bill!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have
> > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups
> > > > > > > Links
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>



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