i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand > experiences?...merle > > >  > Merle, > > My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably > something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as > beautiful. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  > >  bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle > > > > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. > > > > But have also experienced Just THIS! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > >  bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been > > > told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset > > > ?...merle > > > > > > > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. > > > > > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we > > > understand the truth. > > > > > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. > > > > > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are > > > looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go > > > your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the > > > > truth > > > > > > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for > > > > realisation to take place .. > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said > > > > 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception > > > > of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the > > > > > actual logic of reality. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the > > > > > > human intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity > > > > > > > is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > > > > > > looking for an > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads > > > > > > > > you back > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the > > > > > > > > model, then > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize > > > > > > > > that both > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > > > > > > encompasses all -- no > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and > > > > > > > > mountains > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
