On Tue, 2006-28-02 at 13:21 +0100, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > [snip] > > I would vote for spelling out Zed (which would also be a little easier > > to google but might create trademark problems). The namespace package > > could either be 'z' or 'zed'. > > > > Then again, I really should take Jim's side and stay out of naming > > decisions. > > Let's please not have a naming discussion again. I think renaming Zope 3 > is really bad marketing myself and naming discussions mostly a waste of > time...
As I sit here spending sooo much time reading this thread, I've finally decided its time to throw in my own naive point of view as an ex-J2EE developer and a Zope 2 developer that generally builds applications on top of Zope2/CMF/Plone. Let me make a random comments. 1) The Zope 3 name and brand is a marketing disaster (from my perspective) -- to be honest there's really no way I could see this actually getting worse by coming up with a new name. How many times in the #plone channel do we get asked, "Does Plone run on Zope 3.1/3.2?" or, "When will Plone run on Zope 3.2" to which we say "no" to the first question and "dunno" to the second question. 2) Today when I build new applications with Plone, the best I can hope for is to use Zope 3 as a framework and Zope 2 as a deployment platform. Although the reality is I still use Zope 2 as a framework faaaar too much as well. I'm hoping (expecting) that Five will continue to make the requirement to use Zope 2 as a framework diminish more and more. As a developer, I certainly prefer working with Zope 3 "the framework" over Zope 2 "the framework". 3) New developers who are moving in to either learn how to use Zope to develop applications or support existing zope applications of course immediately download the highest number Zope (zope 3 of course). They start using it and (hopefully) enjoy working on it and discover there's a big zope community with lots of developed applications. Then this developer starts googling for a type of plugin/component he needs to make sure he's not reinventing the wheel and discovers there's a HUGE plethora of "Zope" applications that do not even run on his latest zope platform and won't run on that platform in the foreseeable future. Ok, let me say what I think regarding these things. If we started treating zope 3 as just a framework and put energies back into maintaing/refactoring/beautifying zope2 as an application server that uses that framework at its core (this is essentially what zope 2.8+ is working towards with Five IMHO) then this could help several ways: 1) we stop spending time reproducing zope2 app server functionality in zope3 2) we stop building more into zope2 as a framework (i think this is pretty much already happening) Anyway, this still keeps things very confusing from a naming perspective (mostly for new adopters). So .... having said all of that, I am actually +1 on Jim's proposal #2. What I see from that (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: 1) rename zope 3 the framework as Z or zopelib or Zed or something sensical that doesn't confuse the early adopter's conquest of trying to figure out which zope to start with 2) Make zope 2 the application server acquire the name "zope" once again and be the only app server. This could only work (from a new adopter's perspective) if either the application server is given a new name or given a version number higher than 3. Who are we worried aboug confusing here? Existing Zope 3 developers? Zope 2 developers? I don't think so, those people are smart enough to figure it out. So I say lets focus on not confusing new adopters in which case SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE CURRENT NAMING SITUATION! Kind Regards, Rocky -- Rocky Burt AdaptiveWave - Consulting, Training, and Content Management as a Service http://www.adaptivewave.com Content Management Made Simple _______________________________________________ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )