On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:49:29 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: .
> A girl of 8, 9, or 10 years of age who has had her menses is still a girl, > not a woman. From around 13 to about 18-19 years of age, she is called a > teenager. Past nineteen, she can be called a woman (or young woman). Gilberto: That's arbitrary. The concept of "teenager" or more precisely "adolescent" is a relatively new one in human history. Probably because in technical societies people need alot more training and education before they are reasonably able to make a living and provide for a family. In the past, people could pick up a trade from their family and could make a living a lot earlier. > Saying that a 9-year old post-pubescent female is a "young woman" is so > Orwellian newspeak. Gilberto: Puberty is at least a very natural dividing line. Virtually any other one is going to be arbitrary. To just say a girl becomes a woman at 15 even though no particular physical, mental or spiritual change happens at 15 is random. Its understandable that that's where Bahais draw the line and if you want to do that, I'm not objecting. But you have no place to get all offended if other people draw the line somewhere else. > Yes, my understanding is that there are certain eternal fundamental > verities and basic truths that are found in all Dispensations and > moral/ethical orders. For instance, I'd guess that in all cultures, > religions, civilizations, etc. ideas/ideals such as kindness, justice, > compassion, chastity, decency, honesty, modesty, rectitude of conduct, > courage, truthfullness, trustworthiness, etc., etc. are commended and > commanded. Gilberto: Yes, we agree to that at least. > The other thing is that in real life, sometimes the > difficult and important decisions are not between a vice or a virtue but > between competing virtues. Yes, I see that. How much justice is mercy and how much justice > is unmerciful, for example. Yes, truthfullness is good. But where is the > line between truthfulness and lying? Does "taqiyyih" constitute lying? Sure. I think alot of those sorts of questions depend more on the exact specifics of a given situation. For me, that's the best way to think of them rather than just depending on the date or the "dispensation". And the religions give us rules and guidelines and help in making those decisions. > The > Prophet Abraham said Sarah was His sister at one point. At some point He > said He would worship stars, then later He said He would worship the moon, > later He said He would worship the sun. Finally, He said He would worship > God the Creator of heaven and earth. Was He lying at some point? I think I see the point but I would be really hesitant about using this as an example because of what you possibly seem to be suggesting about Abraham's behavior and character. > You haven't answered Susan's question yet, dear Gilberto. I don't think you should be calling me "dear". And yes, I already answered Susan's question and the answer appears below. Maybe you don't like my answer. Maybe you don't understand my answer. But I certainly have given one. Peace Gilberto > Good wishes, > Iskandar > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:52:59 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I can't see your answer to Susan's question. You basically made a speech > > > against exploitation, etc. > > > > I DID answer her question in the most reasonable way I know how. If > > you don't like that answer I'm not sure how to help you. > > > > Already from the beginning of this whole discussion I had said I'd > > prefer to talk about these issues with a different kind of example > > because the topic tends to make people emotional and sensitive. I > > guess I should have known better. > > > > The way I see it there is a basic problem which Jews, Christians, > > Muslims and Bahais living in modern times have. How do we come to > > terms with the fact that individuals who are prophets and messengers > > or otherwise examplary, may have made comments or commited actions > > which might have the appearance or suggestion of immorality when > > viewed from modern secular lenses. > > > > In my experience, the "answer" I've gotten most often from Bahais > > seems to suggest that basic ethical principles and values change over > > time like hemlines. Personally I find that answer REALLY > > unsatisfactory beceause it doesn't seem to take morality seriously. > > > > I would prefer to think that basic moral principles should have more > > staying power. > > > > If that means arguing that certain actions done in the past make sense > > in terms of more fundamental moral principles, so be it. > > > > > > > Basically, dear Gilberto, you can't call a 9-year old female (who has had > > > her menses) a "woman" or "young woman" in front of a judge or a court of > > > law in most any place nowadays (well, maybe with the exception of Saudi > > > Arabia, etc.) > > > > Nevertheless, in many human cultures that is when "adulthood" begins. > > And then I asked you a question which you didn't answer. When do YOU > > think a girl becomes a woman? > > > > > > > > and I doubt if the judge would buy your argument that you > > > have her consent, that she is an "adult" or "mature" by reason of her > > > puberty, that you have the consent of her parents, that she is happy with > > > the matrimonial relationship, that there is no exploitation, etc. > > > involved, etc., etc. It just won't work > > > > I don't think you should talk to me like that. This is part of why I > > would rather use a more neutral example. I have absolutely no interest > > in marrying a nine-year old girl and as I said in my answer, I have no > > objections to the statutory rape laws and I'm not interested in > > repealing them. > > > > Peace > > > > Gilberto > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Iskandar > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:03:37 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition > > > > > of "woman" are you using? > > > > > > > > > Dear Gilberto, > > > > > > > > > So do you think it would be okay today if a mature man married and had > > > > > intercourse with a ten year old girl so long as she had had her > > > > > menses? > > > > I don't think that's the only consideration in a relationship. People > > > > aren't just biological organs with stopwatches attached to them. I > > > > think a deeper criteria is that there be a loving non-exploitative > > > > commited relationship between the people who are married. There are > > > > some young people are precocious and can handle alot of things. There > > > > are some older people who are immature and can't. Ultimately age is > > > > just a number. > > > > > > > > But at the same time I certainly am in favor of efforts to protect > > > > children from exploitation. And I think a totally reasonable way to > > > > protect children in 2005 is to pass statutory rape laws, with certain > > > > age cut-offs even though the exact numbers might be somewhat > > > > arbitrary. > > > > > > > > Peace > > > > > > > > Gilberto > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
