The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm one such still enrolled ex Baha'i. I think the Baha'i Faith will ultimately fail to inability to retain believers. The math adds up to it eventually becoming extinct.
Sent from my iPad On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:39, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > This become especially problematic when you look at Baha'i demographics. Only > slightly more gross enrollments than deaths happen each month. I say gross > because net is way lower. Official dis enrollments and dis enrollment which > doesn't happen on paper do to just leaving the faith without dis enrollment > leaves mathematically a faith that bleeds believers. This also leaves the > number of Baha'i problematic because of ex-Baha'is who are still technically > enrolled as Baha'is and are still counted as inactive rather than ex. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:14, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> That really doesn't answer the question. Non-Baha'is won't just accept that >> statement as factual because Baha'is believe it. A lot of Baha'is have >> magical thinking that somehow non-Baha'is will naturally be drawn to it. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum <mike.m...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent >>> revelation. >>> On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: >>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>> The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and >>>> ethics. >>>> >>>> Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>> I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, >>>>> religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their >>>>> relationship to post conventional morality. >>>>> >>>>> Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, >>>>> Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian >>>>> Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, >>>>> Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various >>>>> ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious >>>>> Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, >>>>> New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World >>>>> Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church >>>>> Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, >>>>> Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The >>>>> Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, >>>>> Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku >>>>> no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New >>>>> Religious Movements are good examples to use. >>>>> >>>>> I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, >>>>> stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, >>>>> conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality >>>>> tends to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala >>>>> prohibita, evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends >>>>> to make people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and >>>>> of itself. Most of the above religions above are completely post >>>>> conventional. I guess the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the >>>>> Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to be used as a tool of conventional rather than >>>>> post conventional morality. I would rather use other examples of the >>>>> above. Unitarian Universalism is a prime example with no laws at all, but >>>>> various principles. Wicca is another example with the Wiccan Rede as a >>>>> good summary of post conventional morality as well as the Charge of the >>>>> Goddess. Scientology and the Way to Happiness also describe morality in >>>>> this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and its Diamond Chalice Precept is >>>>> another good example of post conventional morality. The parables of the >>>>> Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of ethical and moral principles. >>>>> Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored non-aggression based compassion >>>>> in, over, and above all things. This has lead to a history of compassion >>>>> leading people to do prohibited things which aren't evil in themselves, >>>>> but were prohibited because compassion dictated it. Drinking alcohol, >>>>> having sex, eating animal products, wearing animal products, etc. can be >>>>> motivated by compassion and bring people closer to enlightenment as >>>>> illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books section of the Religion >>>>> and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking at the previews on >>>>> Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in general as well, >>>>> especially Zen and Vajrayana. The above position has been known as the >>>>> standard Tantra position. >>>>> >>>>> Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the >>>>> time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and >>>>> my social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. >>>>> >>>>> This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT >>>>> News. She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to >>>>> debate. Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one >>>>> representative of the Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing >>>>> on a whole bunch of points. >>>>> >>>>> A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who >>>>> questions Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks >>>>> them up and hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired from >>>>> CNN, NBC, NPR, or whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and >>>>> now work for Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that >>>>> original only Right wing publishers were willing to publish his works. >>>>> >>>>> There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of >>>>> David Cameron in Great Britain. They favor LGBT rights, but for different >>>>> reasons than the Authoritarian Left. The Libertarian Right questions the >>>>> government's authority to centrally plan society and the economy. >>>>> Marriage privatization is seen as ideal. The Libertarian Right, >>>>> libertarians and conservatives, oppose aggression as opposed to the >>>>> Authoritarian Left who has no qualms about using aggression as a means to >>>>> all of its ends. Look up all the organizations that support same sex >>>>> marriage in the United States on Wikipedia. Notice that depending on the >>>>> ideology of the organization they will formulate different reasons for >>>>> supporting same sex marriage. Things like adoption and marriage are >>>>> private contracts and the government has no reason to interfere is the >>>>> standard Libertarian Right argument. The government needs to step in and >>>>> socially engineer society by using aggression as a means of achieving >>>>> desired social policies such as forcing people to accept and recognize as >>>>> acceptable what we view as such like gay marriage and gay adoption while >>>>> reject and unacceptable what we view as such like support for traditional >>>>> marriage. >>>>> >>>>> Note Liberalism can mean four different ideologies: Conservatism >>>>> (paradoxically to people who believe this is the opposite of liberalism), >>>>> Classical Market Liberalism (better known as Libertarianism), Modern >>>>> Social Liberalism (better known as Progressivism), and Social Democracy. >>>>> >>>>> I think the free market is the most efficient and effective mean of >>>>> administration. I also favor the non-aggression principle in all things >>>>> and over all things for morality. Also, what I've read from various blogs >>>>> like Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that the ideal of Baha'i >>>>> Administration and the reality of Baha'i Administration are two separate >>>>> things. Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action >>>>> rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in >>>>> terms of totalitarianism. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people >>>>> involved accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas? While >>>>> homosexuality isn't technically mentioned, people who are familiar with >>>>> the homosexuals and pedophiles are equivalent stereotype will recognize >>>>> an indirect reference. There are lots of things Baha'is think are evil >>>>> based on the sole fact that they are prohibited in the Kitab-I-Aqdas. >>>>> There are obviously evil things prohibited in there like slavery, murder, >>>>> theft, arson, etc. I would need to lookup the Wikipedia page on Baha'i >>>>> laws to remember other prohibited things. So out of all the things in the >>>>> Aqdas that are prohibited, what do you think ate evil in themselves? >>>>> >>>>> Back to the Political Compass four square of Authoritarian versus >>>>> Libertarian and Left versus Right, the quadrants have various strengths >>>>> in various time and places. Generally whenever one quadrant gains powers >>>>> and upsets the other three, the other other form an impromptu alliance to >>>>> bring down that quadrant. >>>>> >>>>> Back to Aeons. The Aeon of Isis represented materialism. The Aeon of >>>>> Osiris represented paternalism. The Aeon of Horus represent >>>>> individualism. I'm happy I live after rather than before 1904 for this >>>>> very reason. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent with >>>>> the facts of how Administrators actually behave. They go and "suggest" >>>>> how people should behave and various other things which is either a >>>>> covert threat or even sometimes an overt threat of DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE >>>>> YOU'LL HAVE YOUR VOTING RIGHTS REMOVED, DISENROLLED, OR EVEN WORSE. >>>>> Anyone who has read the stories of various dis enrolled and ex Baha'is >>>>> will know how Administrators actually work. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>>> Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical >>>>>> liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, >>>>>> Laissez-faire, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema) >>>>>> >>>>>> Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. >>>>>> Examples >>>>>> Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti >>>>>> Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra >>>>>> Discordians and the Age of Eris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins <don59...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>>>> on the contrary . . . . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism >>>>>>> in which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to >>>>>>> your standards and then punish people who do not comply. i reject that >>>>>>> as an efficient and effective means of administration. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such >>>>>>> that Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What happens when Baha'is "run the world"? First off, I reject the >>>>>>> terminology. I don't believe Baha'is will ever "be in charge" in the >>>>>>> sense that governments are today. When the Baha'i Commonwealth with >>>>>>> the House of Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of >>>>>>> someone being in charge will be seen as anachronistic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do I believe the Baha'i administration will "come to power"? By >>>>>>> default. It will be recognized as the only effective administrative >>>>>>> system that is actually functioning. You think this is impossible? >>>>>>> Look at what has happened in parts of the world where the central >>>>>>> government has collapsed and fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by >>>>>>> the populace, if only temporarily. They were accepted because they >>>>>>> provided stability and nobody else could. in a similar manner, parts >>>>>>> of northern Italy were ruled by the Communist Party for the the same >>>>>>> reason. You may not have liked their philosophy, but there were >>>>>>> relatively corruption free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies. >>>>>>> Not only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a libertarian left >>>>>>> administrative philosophy. There are not very many other Baha'is in >>>>>>> that category and even fewer who have given any tho't as to how that >>>>>>> philosophy informs the functioning of the Baha'i Administration. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a >>>>>>> new age, the Age of Maturity. As such, what we are going thru' is the >>>>>>> greatest change to the functioning of human affairs since the mythic >>>>>>> "Time of Adam", when the Culture Hero societies replaced the Mother >>>>>>> Goddess societies. The Adamic Cycle can be seen as the equivalent of >>>>>>> going thru' puberty. We are now embarking on our maturity and it is >>>>>>> time for us to grow up and take responsibility for our own affairs >>>>>>> instead of waiting for mommy and daddy (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to >>>>>>> tell us what to do. Rather, the new purpose of administrators is to >>>>>>> remind us, repeatedly and persistently if necessary, what the proper >>>>>>> principles should guide us. Shoghi Effendi made reference to this idea >>>>>>> many years ago when he told local Assemblies to quit making up rules to >>>>>>> enforce on their members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are >>>>>>> authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do things >>>>>>> their way. Most leftist activists also define equality in terms of >>>>>>> power; that is, a group of people are only equal to the extent they >>>>>>> have members who exercise power. That is the reason some people make a >>>>>>> big deal out of there not being any women on the House of Justice. It >>>>>>> is seen as having for its purpose the exercise of >>>>>>> power and if women are not allowed to participate, then they have less >>>>>>> power and are, therefore, not quite equal. I reject that entire >>>>>>> argument. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not. >>>>>>> What I have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don C >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks >>>>>>>> society should have a zero tolerance policy towards >>>>>>>> non-heterosexuality. No marriage, no civil unions, no domestic >>>>>>>> partnership, no adoption, no parental rights, etc. He was complaining >>>>>>>> society gives them too many rights and blames it on secular >>>>>>>> liberalism. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>> It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. >>> >>> -- >>> ------------ >>> Mike and Dede Moum >>> Des Moines, Iowa >>> Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org >>> Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-698452-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
