I understand, but it nevertheless seems relevant to the notion of "origin and fate" of a collocation if it's importance and use in most branches of PIE is vastly different than 2 branches taken, perhaps ad hoc, as representing some original or default state. That's all I wished to express.
Best, Caley On Tue, May 31, 2022, 2:47 PM Hock, Hans Henrich <hhh...@illinois.edu> wrote: > What Dean was talking about is the specific word dyau.h and the > collocation dyau.s pitā, the latter of which is compared to Greek zeus > patēr and Lat. iuppiter. Obviously there are many other deities connected > with the sky, but that was not the point of the query and the response > > All the best > > Hans Henrich > > On May 31, 2022, at 12:18, Caley Smith <smith.ca...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > It seems to me speaking of an Indic diminishing of a dyaus pitar as maybe > jumping the gun. There are plenty of heavenly figures (tvastr and savitar > are often characterized as deva/divya) but the importance of a dyaus pitar > can't even really be reconstructed to the indo-Iranian level. Important > father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124, Kuiper has some > interesting thoughts on this. And of course there is a heavenly mother in > Aditi, I think it's first in Breretons the Rgvedic Adityas he suggests an > adj a-diti "unbound" that applied to heavenly could be reanalyzed as the > femimine partner of Heaven and become a goddess in her own right. If I > misremember these things please forgive, I'm on my phone bouncing my > newborn currently. > > It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character that he > is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study of the figure of a > dyaus pitar might have to really re think what the family as an in situ > political unit means in PIE and IIr. It's not really obvious to me that a > steppe clan based family in a segmentation society should in any way have a > similar concept of family and paternity as the fixed field agrarian Greek > or Roman one. Sorry is not more helpful. > > Best, > Caley > > On Mon, May 30, 2022, 2:27 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < > indology@list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Thanks Hans Henrich, >> >> I was aware that he was not widely mentioned in RV but I hadn't thought >> of the ramifications of that until your post. >> >> I realize this may be the wrong place to ask this, but are you aware of >> any studies on the origin and fate of Dyaus/Zeus/Tiu across or within the >> other Indo-European languages? >> >> Best, >> >> Dean >> >> On Monday, May 30, 2022, 10:21:02 PM GMT+5:30, Hock, Hans Henrich < >> hhh...@illinois.edu> wrote: >> >> >> Dear Dean, >> >> Even in the RigVeda *dyauṣ pitṛ *appears only six times; *dyauḥ *by >> itself, of course, occurs frequently, but often in feminine gender. In >> addition, there is the compound *dyāvāpṛthivī. * >> >> So, while *dyauṣ pitṛ* (and his relation to *pṛthivī mātṛ*) may be >> important from the perspective of comparative Indo-European mythology, his >> role in the Vedic tradition is highly diminished from the beginning. Other >> deities (Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, etc.) play a more important role, and >> in Vedic Prose, Viṣṇu, as personification of the sacrifice, becomes more >> important (as well as Rudra), and of course Prajāpati, the ‘lord of >> creatures’. >> >> I hope this at least partly answers your query. >> >> All the best, >> >> Hans Henrich >> >> >> >> On 30 May2022, at 08:43, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >> indology@list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Indology List, >> >> Can anyone point me to any studies that discuss what happened to the >> Vedic Dyaus Pater who was important in the Rig Veda but who seems to have >> been supplanted in later times? >> >> It's particularly interesting for Indo-European studies because Dyaus is >> related to the Greek Zeus and the Germanic Tyr/Tius and Dyaus Pater to the >> Roman Ju-piter. >> >> Best, >> >> Dean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY@list.indology.info >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7kj2gkm6ov_nmpxuZH8yOeYleSLqWZUDRCrpHF3UZzpy_BiGWZ70qOTnu7rGMtxe4ufqc6WjQhUyNEjA3C67xs_e8luE$ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY@list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!840hQA3HmsvvWgmkHLGb4vr9sZclYnhYAwV9yD4H8YwJVOdPXKljV_SksLrhXueBdPTtLwAxTKaSvwZN3_K4Mw$> >> >
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