Thanks for the very useful replies.
On Thursday, June 2, 2022at 09:19:28 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith
<smith.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks! Parenthoodhas been amazing so far.
>It's not lost on methat as a new father I am making a lot of
>claims about heavenlyfatherhood.
Yes, I noticed thatcoincidence too. Perhaps your new father status will grant
you some specialinsights into our topic. Although, from what you say, those
won't involve anyparenting tips from Indra.
>Iranian doesn'tprovide any evidence for us, so
>if Dyaus Pitar was animportant figure, his importance likely declined
>already in a sharedIndo-Iranian period prior to the speech community's
>division.
Could you please directme to any discussions or sources on that if you have
them at hand?
It's interesting that wefind Dyaus in Indic but not Iranian if I understand you
correctly. Is itpossible that might give us some hint of a somewhat more
complex process ofseparation between Indic and Iranian? I don't really know
what that might be atthe moment, but it is something to let percolate in the
background of my mind.
>I am not certainthere is particular importance, personally, to assign to the
>figure of Tiu.
The main reason I fallinto the camp that proposes that Tiu was originally a
more important god thanexisting records indicate is because in Anglo-Saxon (and
other Germaniccountries), four of the days of the week are named after gods,
and the otherthree gods were clearly among the most important deities:
Odin/Wodan, Thor, andFrig -- or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,Friday.
>Consider Old EnglishTīwesdæg "Tuesday" is etymologically cognate with a
>hypothetical
>Sanskrit devadaha*,... if I am not mistaken.
How does the Sanskritdaha* relate to the Germanic dæg or 'day'?
>And in Irish, theDagda would go by cognate, hypothetically, with a Sanskrit
>dahadeva.*
I'm glad you introducedthe Dagda, one of my favorite father gods. Do you see
any more connections?Also, do you see a connection with Taranis in any of this
to either Dyaus orIndra?
>BUT In an email tome, John Lowe pointed out, and I think quite convincingly,
>that we have toreconstruct a vocative Dyews Phter to the proto-level
>... So, thispragmatic dimension does make me reconsider
>what I said earlier,and I thank him for pointing this out. ...
>I'll have to thinkvery carefully about this.
I'd be interested in yourfurther thoughts as they evolve.
>it's more likely that Indra is taking overmythical deed once attributed to
Trita and Mitra,
> this there is somecomparative data from Avestan that let's us think through
> the problem.
I feel like this isbecoming a repetitive refrain, but could you point me to
some discussion ofthis? As well as this: "This is something Kuiper, Jamison,
and Breretonobserve in X.124, the peaceful switch from asura power to Indra's
devicsupremacy."
>I would ask myselfwhat the political organization of steppe peoples is like
> and if it is morelike how Indo-Iranians were organized or more like how
> Greeks and
>Romans wereorganized, and what kind of myths would make sense to
>the worldview of thataudience and would be useful for their own political
>operations.
This is one of the linesof thinking I am following in my own research at the
moment. I think sometheorists of the early Indo-Europeans were over-influenced
by the evidence fromstate-level societies like the Greeks and Romans and didn't
think enough abouthow the early period would have been more of a tribal
chieftain organization.
Thanks for all of thethought-provoking comments.
Best,
Dean
On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 09:19:28 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith
<smith.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dean,
Thanks! Parenthood has been amazing so far. It's not lost on me that as a new
father I am making a lot of claims about heavenly fatherhood.
Regarding the claim that "the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be
reconstructed to the Indo-Iranian level," what I mean is that Iranian doesn't
provide any evidence for us, so if Dyaus Pitar was an important figure, his
importance likely declined already in a shared Indo-Iranian period prior to the
speech community's division.
I am not certain there is particular importance, personally, to assign to the
figure of Tiu. Consider Old English Tīwesdæg "Tuesday" is etymologically
cognate with a hypothetical Sanskrit devadaha*, which I think is the name of
the great-grandfather of the Buddha (via Devadaha > Anjana > Maya >
Siddhartha), if I am not mistaken. And in Irish, the Dagda would go by cognate,
hypothetically, with a Sanskrit dahadeva.* My point is first, Tiu goes back to
deva not dyaus, and that's a real difference. Second, it's possible to create
what looks like a PIE figure from Tiu, Dagda, and Devadaha but I think it would
be ill-advised to do so.
BUT In an email to me, John Lowe pointed out, and I think quite convincingly,
that we have to reconstruct a vocative Dyews Phter to the proto-level---which
is suggestive of a certain use, isn't it? An atheist today might well say "o
god!" without believing in god, simply because the vocative is an inherited
part of the lexicon. So, this pragmatic dimension does make me reconsider what
I said earlier, and I thank him for pointing this out. Still, this figure would
likely not resemble, in my mind, the Greek Zeus and the figure of Ouranos looks
to NW semitic to me for a reliable reconstruction (cf. Ugaritic El, sky-father
of the gods, who are conceived of as the stars in the sky), when this
astrological element is absent from Sanskrit Dyaus Pitar (although Varuna does
have night-sky affinities...). I'll have to think very carefully about this.
On that note, Kuiper's publication is Varuna and Vidusaka
(https://archive.org/details/varunaandvidusakaontheoriginofsanskritdramakuiperf.b.j./page/n1/mode/2up)
As for Indra's replacing Dyaus Pitar, I am not convinced. I do think a
sukta-era Indra-ism did result in the appropriation of a broad spectrum of
heroic deeds to Indra, but in this case it's more likely that Indra is taking
over mythical deed once attributed to Trita and Mitra, this there is some
comparative data from Avestan that let's us think through the problem. But what
is the evidence of IIr Dyaus Pitar actually doing anything?
Conversely, let's consider for a second what we know about the sukta-era
political system and the function of the Soma pressing ritual. It seems like it
was used to consecrate a temporary leader, we might think of this leader as
suzerain but I think kingship goes a bit too far in terms of sovereignty. This
kind of power was likely based on a patron's personal charisma legitimized
through priestly/poetic performance and ritual distribution of wealth to shore
up support. In other words, part of a process of coalition building. Any
coalition would have old leaders and new leaders, and not necessarily ones from
the same clan let alone household. It stands to reason that a mythological
structure that provided a conceptual map for the peaceful transition of power
would be completely appropriate in such a system. This is something Kuiper,
Jamison, and Brereton observe in X.124, the peaceful switch from asura power to
Indra's devic supremacy. Put differently, we need not imagine that a deus
otiosus ever needed to be, once upon a time, the primary object of worship. His
role could always be that of deus otiosus going back as far as you need. It's
unmotivated to assume the necessity of mythological replacement, when there is
real social value in the figure of a "sky god emeritus." In fact, in Ugarit
this is exactly how the god El functioned, Baal was the primary object of
worship and El was a creator/fertility entity whose primary job was to resist
and then accept Baal's supremacy.
Not that we should reconstruct PIE to be like Ugaritic! My point is that a myth
like this could serve a social function, while different systems of political
organization, for example polis kingship in Greece, could reinvent the figure
by fusing elements of a deus otiosus with a heroic actor (thus Zeus, this
parallels the figure of Yahweh who appears to be a fusion of Baal and El).
So, at the risk of seeming strident and insistence (and I don't actually have a
real theory of Dyews Phtr just qualms), I think what the figure meant and
indicated in PIE is still very much an open question, but if I were a betting
man (and thank the gods I am not), I would ask myself what the political
organization of steppe peoples is like and if it is more like how Indo-Iranians
were organized or more like how Greeks and Romans were organized, and what kind
of myths would make sense to the worldview of that audience and would be useful
for their own political operations. Just thinking out loud!
Best,Caley
On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 11:02 AM Dean Michael Anderson
<eastwestcultu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
First, congratulations to Caley on the newborn!
Thanks to everyone for the useful and insightful comments.Thanks to Hans
Henrich for giving me some valuable pointers to look further into the situation
regarding Dyaus, Zeus, Jupiter, and the sadly mysterious Germanic Tiu.Thanks to
Caley and others for taking it beyond my original thoughts to suggest other
connections.
Forgive my limited knowledge and understanding. Caley (and others) how would
you view your comment that "the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really
be reconstructed to the Indo-Iranian level" in light of the connection beyond
the Indo-Iranians to the Greeks, Romans, (and the sadly mysterious Germanic
Tiu)?
> Important father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124,
>Kuiper has some interesting thoughts on this.
Do you happen to remember the name of Kuiper's publication?
>It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character
>that he is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study
>of the figure of a dyaus pitar
And yet I have read elsewhere of Indra "replacing" Dyaus. What are your
thoughts on this?
Dean
On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:48:14 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith
<smith.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems to me speaking of an Indic diminishing of a dyaus pitar as maybe
jumping the gun. There are plenty of heavenly figures (tvastr and savitar are
often characterized as deva/divya) but the importance of a dyaus pitar can't
even really be reconstructed to the indo-Iranian level. Important father
figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124, Kuiper has some interesting
thoughts on this. And of course there is a heavenly mother in Aditi, I think
it's first in Breretons the Rgvedic Adityas he suggests an adj a-diti "unbound"
that applied to heavenly could be reanalyzed as the femimine partner of Heaven
and become a goddess in her own right. If I misremember these things please
forgive, I'm on my phone bouncing my newborn currently.
It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character that he is not
a biological father, and thus perhaps any study of the figure of a dyaus pitar
might have to really re think what the family as an in situ political unit
means in PIE and IIr. It's not really obvious to me that a steppe clan based
family in a segmentation society should in any way have a similar concept of
family and paternity as the fixed field agrarian Greek or Roman one. Sorry is
not more helpful.
Best, Caley
On Mon, May 30, 2022, 2:27 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
Thanks Hans Henrich,
I was aware that he was not widely mentioned in RV but I hadn't thought of the
ramifications of that until your post.
I realize this may be the wrong place to ask this, but are you aware of any
studies on the origin and fate of Dyaus/Zeus/Tiu across or within the other
Indo-European languages?
Best,
Dean
On Monday, May 30, 2022, 10:21:02 PM GMT+5:30, Hock, Hans Henrich
<hhh...@illinois.edu> wrote:
Dear Dean,
Even in the RigVeda dyauṣ pitṛ appears only six times;dyauḥ by itself, of
course, occurs frequently, but often in feminine gender. In addition, there is
the compounddyāvāpṛthivī.
So, while dyauṣ pitṛ (and his relation topṛthivī mātṛ) may be important from
the perspective of comparative Indo-European mythology, his role in the Vedic
tradition is highly diminished from the beginning. Other deities (Agni, Indra,
Mitra, Varuṇa, etc.) play a more important role, and in Vedic Prose, Viṣṇu, as
personification of the sacrifice, becomes more important (as well as Rudra),
and of course Prajāpati, the ‘lord of creatures’.
I hope this at least partly answers your query.
All the best,
Hans Henrich
On 30 May2022, at 08:43, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
Dear Indology List,
Can anyone point me to any studies that discuss what happened to the Vedic
Dyaus Pater who was important in the Rig Veda but who seems to have been
supplanted in later times?
It's particularly interesting for Indo-European studies because Dyaus is
related to the Greek Zeus and the Germanic Tyr/Tius andDyaus Pater to the Roman
Ju-piter.
Best,
Dean
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7kj2gkm6ov_nmpxuZH8yOeYleSLqWZUDRCrpHF3UZzpy_BiGWZ70qOTnu7rGMtxe4ufqc6WjQhUyNEjA3C67xs_e8luE$
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
