Re: Ridvan letter
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Should come out between the 9th and 12th day of Ridvan, I guess. That's when the international convention meets. On Wednesday, April 24, 2013, Mike Moum wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Does anyone know whether the Ridvan letter from the House is available? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks, Mike -- Mike and Dede Moum Des Moines, Iowa Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org __** You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-699075-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/**read/all_forums/subscribe?** name=bahai-sthttp://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/**read/?forum=bahai-sthttp://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/**bahai...@list.jccc.nethttp://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/**bahai-st@list.jccc.eduhttp://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Sent from Gmail Mobile __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-699078-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: I am a man from Mars. Argue your points from a rational point of view, not because `Abdu'l-Baha said something in defense of Islam to a Christian audience. Well if you were from Mars I'd probably want to know about your Martian beliefs in order to figure out how much common ground we had. But let's say you weren't Bahai/Babi or Muslim on the one side, or pacifist on the other... I would probably point out that according to some sources, the raids were an attempt to recover property which the Muslims had lost to the Meccans when they became refugees during the hijra. Yes, I know that. Still, lying in ambush waiting for a trading caravan, in the forbidden month of Rajab, and shaving your head in order to give the false impression that your intention was pilgrimage (hajj), being deceitful, is not exactly an act of defense. Besides, how do you know that it was that particular caravan that had taken your property? No, I was not condemning Islam. I am just stating the facts such as jihad and the facts that were in that video. Or permission to beat your wife. These are facts. In my view, they mean that the time of Islamic. Dispensation has passed. It's not a condemnation. I don't appreciate being lectured at regarding what a moral code of conduct for a Baha'i should be. I'd like to be given the latitude of making my own judgment based on my own understanding. I think that if you don't like being told what Bahais are supposed to believe, then I would ask you to keep that feeling in mind before you lecture Muslims about what Islam teaches. You should give Muslims the latitude to make their own judgement based on their own understanding. I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all. You did not leave the list when you were asked to. That's just common netiquette. Nothing religious about it. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549326-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sen, what you are desrcribing is police or sheriff function. I'm talking about jihad the way it is normally understood to mean. Holy War, or unholy war. When someone puts a sword to your neck until you say the shahadah. That's ugly and unholy. Baha'u'llah did not forbid police function. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 29 Dec 2010 at 20:01, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I'm just interested in discussing the forms of warfare / jihad which would have permissible under Muhammad (saaws) or the Imams. Are you saying that Muhammad and/or the Imams led offensive raids? In my Church and State and on my blog, I've presented an alternative explanation of the role of Muhammad and the Meccan Muslims in Medina. Basically, I think the elders of Medina decided to outsource their security, as Taif and Mecca had done: contracting a particular group to provide external security. In the case of Medina, that meant running patrols in the surrounding area, maintaining friendly contacts with nomadic peoples, collecting taxes from caravans passing through the territory dominated by Medina, and encouraging caravans to come to Medina. This effort (jihad) was what was required of the Meccan Muslims, in return for a place of refuge for them in the settlement. Surah 2:218, for example, refers to those who have migrated and have engaged in jihad (haajaruu wa jaahhaduu), but this jihand is simply the `efforts´ (jahuud, jihaad) that the migrants had to make in return for their residence in Medina. At that time, there was no state of war with Mecca. The few Medinan Muslims did not participate in the jihad, they were not part of that contract. For more detail see my blog at: http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/muhammad-at- medina/#politics Sen sen.so...@casema.nl senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549327-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Since when are we obligated to accept `Abdu'l-Baha's judgment on a matter of history? And history of another religion? I see. So you don't think Abdu'l-Baha knew anything about Muhammad's motivations. It is `Abdu'l-Baha's understang and judgement of history. I am not sure we are obligated to just swallow it whole, uncritically. An unprovoked raid is an act of offense. Last I heard expelling people from their homes, requisitioning their property, etc. constituted provocation. And being deceitful in your actions, shaving your head in the month of Rajab, pretending that you intended to go on hajj, is defensive? Best regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549330-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Nice. So, now, I am the bad guy. I am having a temper tantrum. Thanks for the ad hominem, Susan. Go ahead. Hurl more personal attacks on me. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. Granted, but this is not what Iskandar is attacking. He is having a temper tantrum because he doesn't want Gilberto on this list. I've not seen Gilberto representing any of the positions which most of us find objectionable about Muslims today. I think his perennialism is dead wrong but I don't see why we can't discuss that rational rather than take these kinds of pot-shots at Islam. I think perennialism leaves us in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their recent letter to the Counsellors. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549315-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549333-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. It's in Bukhari too. There are dark passages in the Quran as well. Beating your wife is one. Not befriending Jews/Christians is another. Killing the mushrikeen wherever you find them is yet another. I have not interest in your interpretations. Let the text of the book that you believe is the very last book of God speak for itself. Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all. Ibn Ishaq and the other sources you referenced aren't Muslim texts. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549334-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? Earlier you were saying that the raids were for purposes of getting their property back. Now you are questioning the early sources? How convenient. There were more than half a dozen raids, not all of them were successful. The Nakhla raid occurred in Rajab. And there was yet another caravan raid later and that precipitated the battle of Badr. How do you know that the caravan that was attacked was actually the folks who had taken your property? Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. I didn't say all of that. But in the same way that Bahais don't view pilgrim's notes as binding or authoritative, Ibn Ishaq is also not binding or authoritative. He was a Muslim historian. Fine. Nobody is saying he got everything right. It's in Bukhari too. I just did a search in Bukhari under Rajab and nothing about caravan raids came up. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549345-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn Ishaq is an unreliable Muslim liar? Or, is he a Jewish liar? Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. Ibn Ishaq has an anti-Muslim agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list and you had been asked to leave and you still refuse. So, why don't you give up? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549351-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549363-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Because he is so conveniently selective and always evasive. Did the caravan raids occur or not? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549367-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:54:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the second time you have projected the anti-Muslim Jewish historian comment onto Gilberto, and yet he has not made that statement a single time..Not exactly the most fair tactic. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn Ishaq is an unreliable Muslim liar? Or, is he a Jewish liar? Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. Ibn Ishaq has an anti-Muslim agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list and you had been asked to leave and you still refuse. So, why don't you give up? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549351-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549363-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549367-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549370-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Interesting. What about the caravan raids? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549365-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 15:41:02 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what happened in Medina with what happened at Masada centuries earlier. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1454189 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549365-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549372-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. What you said was You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. It's in Bukhari too. That's an exact quote. I did not know you had the Nakhla raid in mind. The it refers to the caravan raid story, not one particular raid. Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I already gave you a reason for at least some of the raids. So, the raids did take place. Now, you shave your head in the month of Rajab and lie in wait for a caravan of traders. What is that? Defense? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. You have a funny way of showing it. It may seem funny to you. But the issues regarding violence, women, apostasy, najas, finality, etc., etc. are not funny. As I said, I'm just telling you the facts, from your books. That is not an anti-Muslim campaign or agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list I think initially I was honestly very curious about the Bahai Faith and wanted to gain a better understanding of how it could be so similar to Islam in certain respects (believing in Muhammad, the Quran, the Imams, etc.) while being different in other respects. At this point, I think I have a better understanding of where the differences are. I don't expect (and never did expect) to convert anybody. But if someone is telling me that they believe in Muhammad, the Quran, the Imams, etc. then I would still think that has certain kinds of implications and I wouldn't expect them pour out the kind of hatred and resentment that I've seen from some people on the list. There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. The issues are the facts. the facts that are unfortunate, dark, and inconvenient but true facts nonetheless. Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. You are welcome to enjoy the paradise with the virgin hooris there or with the boys there. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549378-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think respect applies to persons, not to ideas or belief systems or ideologies. If you critique a Christian or Islamic doctrine, belief, law, or teaching, it doesn't mean you are disrespecting the Christian or Muslim person. That's why you consort with people of all Faiths or no faith and you don't consider a Christian or an atheist najas. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. And just fyi, I think the Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, and I am a Muslim. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549400-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the caravan raids? What about them. The Meccans had expelled the Muslims and expropriated their property. The caravans raids were attempts to address that wrong. It doesn't have to be the same exact property. As for Muslim breaking carrying this out during the four months when war was to be suspended, this was a rule that the Meccans had devised for their own benefit. Is there some reason the Muslims should have played by their rules? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549383-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549401-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. Well, what can I say. This is not the first time that you are wrong. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? List purpose? Excuse me? What is the purpose of a Baha'i studies list? To continue to hear from Gilberto that Islam is the last religion, Quran the last word, and Muhammad the last prophet of God, again and again, and again? Is that the list purpose. You know fully well that the list has ceased to be a Baha'i studies list for a long time. I'm just trying to show you and to show all that the list has been hijacked by Gilberto and his agenda. Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. It's regrettable that you find *my behaviour offensive. Ad hominems against me were not enough. Oh well. As long as Gilberto stays, I seriously doubt if there will ever be any issues related to Baha'i studies on this list. Again, this is not the first time that you are wrong, both with regards to Gilberto's intentions and agenda and with regards to my behaviour. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. Well, I tell you what: I will stick around. If you don't like it, *you* are free to leave. How do you like that? I have no paranoia towards Gilberto. All I'm saying is that there has been no real or serious study of the Baha'i Faith on this list since Gilberto has been around. Of, sorry, It's all my fault. I am the paranoid culprit throwing a temper tantrum. Best regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549403-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone who finds *my* behaviour offensive is free to leave. It won't surprise me, however, if Susan magically finds the tool to remove members and removes me first. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549404-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Jesus Christ told the Jews that if they had known Moses, they would have known or accepted Him (Jesus). And I believe both The Bab and Baha'u'llah reiterate the same notion in many instances. I think what you say, dear Firouz, is quite profound. Thanks. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549407-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I am not interested in knowing what you do when/if you accidentally bump
into an atheist. I couldn't care less.
I am just reading what the text says. Nothing more and nothing less. And
it's not the kind of thing that looks like it will be the last word of God.
Your spin is good for you. And what 9:125 says does not take away anything
from a plain reading of najas, nor does it add to it or modify it.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ
خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.
If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Assuming you are trying to restart our earlier conversation about
whether or not Islam/Bahai Faith has a concept of people being
unclean... here is the last e-mail which was sent out but never got a
response:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical
reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of
its
revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not
literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that
they
should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from
literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in
Mecca.
It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then.
I wouln't use the word literal in the context but I think I
understand your argument. And there are definitely Muslims who read it
in the way you suggest. What I would suggest is that you connect this
to the the later verse
[9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds
uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are
unbelievers.
And compare it to the treatment of those with spiritual diseases
according to the Bahai Faith. In the Bahai faith covenant breakers are
said to have contagious spiritual diseases and are shunned. In Islam
in the early generation, the polytheists were kept out of Mecca. But
just as shunning covenat breakers doesn't mean you have to do extra
ablutions if you accidentally bump into a covenant breaker, the
Muslims don't have to renew their ablutions if they bump into a
polytheist because the polytheist isn't ritually unclean. But their
spiritual influence was to be decisively excluded from Mecca. In other
words, in both cases there is a spiritual condition, which doesn't
affect ritual purity, but it does imply a different treatment in the
world. (which explains why economic factors could be mentioned). Do
you understand?
[end quote]
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549413-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You can call yourself whatever you want. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:55 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549414-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Gilberto either doesn't understand, or pretends that he does not understand, or fails to admit that he doesn't get it. Either way, it does not matter. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:01 AM, HUSA husaynvil...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, such words have obviously an eschatological meaning, not institutional, collegial, or legal. ** http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El *vie, 12/31/10, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com*escribió: De: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: Stealth Jihad A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 12:55 am The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.orghttp://e1.mc1132.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549416-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian Demonization - Part 3 by Dr. Robert Dickson Crane The true facts of this “notorious” event were quite different, and the lessons to be learned from it were the exact opposite of Spencer’s conclusions. This Nakhla episode is recorded in great detail in the eight-volume Encyclopedia of Seerah, published in 1981 by the Seerah Foundation of London, with a foreward by Abdullah Naseeef, then President of King Abdulaziz University, beginning on page 567 of Volume One. Shortly before the first major war between the Quraysh from Mecca and the Muslims in Medina, known as the Battle of Badr in the Year 624, The Prophet sent out eight reconnaissance patrols to monitor the enemy’s movements. Four of them, known as sarayah (sing. sariyah), were not accompanied by the Prophet himself, and four, known as ghazawat (sing. ghazwah), were. Of the eight, with one exception, no-one on either side was either attacked or killed. During some of them peace treaties were made with local tribes. The single exception was the sariyah with twelve men led by Abdullah ibn Jahsh. He was carefully instructed to lead twelve men on a reconnaisance mission, not a military action. Instead, he attacked a Quraish caravan passing between Makkah and Ta’if and killed one man, Amr ibn al Hadrami, and captured two others. When he returned, the Prophet Muhammad condemned him and his actions, because he had been told strictly to avoid all hostile actions, especially since it was during one of the sacred months. Jahsh tried to explain that he thought it was the last day of Rajab. The Prophet then told him that, regardless, he had been ordered not to engage in fighting. Therefore, the Prophet refused to take any of the stolen goods, released the two prisoners, and paid blood money to the relatives of the deceased. Since this history of the Nakhla as recorded in the Sirah conforms with all the principles of the just war doctrine embodied in the Qur’an, one must question how one can call this the first Muslim raid of a caravan on Muhammad’s order and why one would term this the origin of war as the essence of Islam. [end quote] On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549413-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Instead of making a blanket statement, try to analyze and discuss the points that are made and argued one by one. Here is a different news report: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_eu/eu_denmark_terror_arrests What a wonderful religion. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is part of a McCarthyite attack on academia that has been going on for the last decade. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideosharetask=viewvideoItemid=70video_id=378 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549155-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549159-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549160-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stating the facts is not an attack. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv The points that are made on the video are based on the text of the Quran. Irrefutable. And since when do Baha'is support attacks on the Qur'an? This is an right-wing evangelical anti-Islam website which has no place on this list. Since Baha'is can't act like Baha'is here I will be asking Mark to shut the list down. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549175-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549178-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, are you saying that the Baha'i Faith endorses Jihad? Baha'u'llah clearly abrogated religious warfare, jihad. That's condemnation, for now and into the future. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv about the existence of vioelnce in banu-Qurazah incident and He decried and condemned it. He did not condemn it. He indicated He was broken-hearted by it despite the fact it was in accordance with Divine Justice. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549181-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Unfortunately, this list has long ceased to be a list for Baha'i studies. I don't think much will be lost by closing it down altogether. Sometimes, right-wing Evangelicals can tell some truths. I'm not interested in their lies, just the facts and truths. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv The points that are made on the video are based on the text of the Quran. Irrefutable. And since when do Baha'is support attacks on the Qur'an? This is an right-wing evangelical anti-Islam website which has no place on this list. Since Baha'is can't act like Baha'is here I will be asking Mark to shut the list down. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549175-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549184-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: God as Forgiver
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Where does it say that Muslims are not forgiven? For what? On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:00 PM, atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Bahai teaches the Muslims are not forgiven, that's why Bahais abrogated Quran. Bahai is completely independent of Islam and Quran. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549185-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Just warfare is in the context of collective security, in order to stop an aggressor. Very different from religious warfare (jihad) or holy war. Jihad is quite ugly and unholy, and its use is to force people into accepting your religion. Categorically abolished, forbidden, and abrogated in the Baha'i Faith. There is a big difference between raiding a trading caravan to provoke a war and just war theory. What `Abdu'l-Baha endorses is the defensive wars in early Islam. But there were offensive raids, etc. too. Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549191-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:41:15 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Bahai Faith clearly endorses the military actions of Muhammad and the early Muslims (for example, the section on Muhammad in Some Answered Questions) or the actions of Imam Husayn on the battlefield. And we've already discussed the concept of righteous warfare which exists in the Bahai Faith. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, are you saying that the Baha'i Faith endorses Jihad? Baha'u'llah clearly abrogated religious warfare, jihad. That's condemnation, for now and into the future. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv about the existence of vioelnce in banu-Qurazah incident and He decried and condemned it. He did not condemn it. He indicated He was broken-hearted by it despite the fact it was in accordance with Divine Justice. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549181-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549191-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549208-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Raiding a trading caravan is an offensive war. What `Abdu'i-Baha is saying applies to Muhammad's defensive wars. But there were offensive wars as well. You don't understand the issue of collective security and just war. Jihad is religious warfare. A different animal. All the conquests of Islam until 732 were offenses by nature. They were conducted to foist Islam by force and compulsion on other peoples and nations. You think Egyptians and Syrians and Persians came to Arabia begging to become Muslims? The no compulsion in religion verse does not and did not abrogate jihad. Violence in the name of religion has always been a part of Islam, sometimes more and sometimes less. That kind of religion cannot be and is not God's final religion. Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549209-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:01:41 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Just warfare is in the context of collective security, in order to stop an aggressor. So is jihad when properly understood. That's actually the point of SAQ: Muḥammad received the Divine Revelation among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, He fled. 2 But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate Him and all His followers. It was under such circumstances that Muḥammad was forced to take up arms. This is the truth: we are not bigoted and do not wish to defend Him, but we are just, and we say what is just. Look at it with justice. If Christ Himself had been placed in such circumstances among such tyrannical and barbarous tribes, and if for thirteen years He with His disciples had endured all these trials with patience, culminating in flight from His native land—if in spite of this these lawless tribes continued to pursue Him, to slaughter the men, to pillage their property, and to capture their women and children—what would have been Christ’s conduct with regard to them? If this oppression had fallen only upon Himself, He would have forgiven them, and such an act of forgiveness would have been most praiseworthy; but if He had seen that these cruel and bloodthirsty murderers wished to kill, to pillage and to injure all these oppressed ones, and to take captive the women and children, it is certain that He would have protected them and would have resisted the tyrants. What objection, then, can be taken to Muḥammad’s action? Is it this, that He did not, with His followers, and their women and children, submit to these savage tribes? To free these tribes from their bloodthirstiness was the greatest kindness, and to coerce and restrain them was 21 a true mercy. They were like a man holding in his hand a cup of poison, which, when about to drink, a friend breaks and thus saves him. If Christ had been placed in similar circumstances, it is certain that with a conquering power He would have delivered the men, women and children from the claws of these bloodthirsty wolves. Very different from religious warfare (jihad) or holy war. Jihad is quite ugly and unholy, and its use is to force people into accepting your religion. Categorically abolished, forbidden, and abrogated in the Baha'i Faith. If that's how you are defining jihad then the Quran already says there is no compulsion in matters of religion. There is a big difference between raiding a trading caravan to provoke a war and just war theory. What `Abdu'l-Baha endorses is the defensive wars in early Islam. But there were offensive raids, etc. too. I'm just interested in discussing the forms of warfare / jihad which would have permissible under Muhammad (saaws) or the Imams. Are you saying that Muhammad and/or the Imams led offensive raids? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549209-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually, there were a series of raids on Meccan caravans in the first 1-2 years of hijrah; and one of them occurred during the forbidden month of Rajab (I think it was the Nakhlah raid), one of them precipitated Badr. It's all in ibn-e ishaq and Tabari, and Bukhari, etc. What hostility did Egyptians, Syrians, Spaniards, etc. show towards Islam? Islam was and is a religion for Arabs. The Islamic conquests happened while your very favorite sahabah guys like `Umar, etc. were in power. Don't try to be so selective. Or, are you finally admitting that `Umar was a ruthless, Godless tyrant just like the rest of sahabah? He was not Mr. nice guy. Neither was `Uthman. But they are your Rightly guided Caliphs. Looks like they were seriously wrong and misguided. No, it's you who don't understand the difference between just war in the context of collective security (something similar to the first Gulf war in 1991) and religious (un)holy war specifically termed jihad. Baha'u'llah has categorically forbidden and prohibited religious strife and warfare in any shape or form. There is a big difference. Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Raiding a trading caravan is an offensive war. Are you saying that caravans were raided in the time of Muhammad under his command? What `Abdu'i-Baha is saying applies to Muhammad's defensive wars. But there were offensive wars as well. http://www.lamppostproductions.com/files/articles/JIHAD_MOD_WLD.pdf A paper from Sherman Jackson makes the point that the early Muslim community was basically surrounded by hostile empires, so that if you understand the historical context offensive jihad was actually defensive. You don't understand the issue of collective security and just war. Jihad is religious warfare. A different animal. All the conquests of Islam until 732 were offenses by nature. They were conducted to foist Islam by force and compulsion on other peoples and nations. You think Egyptians and Syrians and Persians came to Arabia begging to become Muslims? I think you are confusing the issue. One issue is whether there is an Islamic state. (which is a question of security) A second issue is whether or not people have to convert. (is a matter of individual conscience). Also, I have no interest in defending the position that Islam was perfectly implemented by saintly Middle Easterners throughout Muslim history. The Muslims are human and subject to the same mistakes and vices as any other human being. I'm sure that a certain degree of the warfare which occured was more rooted in greed and avarice, but to the extent that it was, it certainly doesn't reflect Islam. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549221-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: God as Forgiver
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm not sure if I'd agree. I'd say that some or most of the laws of Shari`ah belong to the dust bin of history but there are inspirational passages in the Quran that will be eternal. And in the Bible, etc. Unfortunately, most have ignored the inspirational passages and are stuck in the minutiae of law, insisting that their holy book is the last word of God, their religion the last religion, their law the last law, and their prophet the last prophet. What nonsense. Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:53 PM, atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Iskandar, Muslims have to put away their Qurans, or at least put them on the shelf with copies of L Ron Hubbard books. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549223-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Was somebody else approving the raids? On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually, there were a series of raids on Meccan caravans in the first 1-2 years of hijrah; and one of them occurred during the forbidden month of Rajab (I think it was the Nakhlah raid), one of them precipitated Badr. It's all in ibn-e ishaq and Tabari, and Bukhari, etc. So that we are clear, are you talking about raids which were approved of / commanded by / directed by Muhammad? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549224-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am just stating the facts. You draw your own conclusions. So, the raids were ordered by Muhammad himself. Right? The Baha'i concept of Manifestation of God is irrelevant here. Or, maybe I am a Baha'i that is quite selective in his beliefs just like you who are so conveniently selective in your beliefs and sources, etc. None of your business. Did Muhammad order a series of raids or not? That's the question. Yes, he did. And his religion can't be the last religion. You are silent regarding actions of your venerable sahabah `Umar, or `Uthman and their conquests. `Abdu'l-Baha's comments in SAQ are for apologetic purposes, Susan. For a Christian audience. And since when is `Abdu'l-Baha an infallible source in matters of history, especially ancient history? Or, are you saying that the best defense is a good offense, Susan? Are you guys so blind to the existence of violence and bloodshed in Islam? Why on earth was Baha'u'llah so perturbed as a child about such violence? Why did He abolish it if there never ever was any bloodshed and violence in Islam? What's wrong with you folks? Go ahead and defend Islam but don't ignore the facts. Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm asking because I honestly don't know what you believe. If you are refering to one or two years after the hijrah then the Prophet Muhammad would have still been alive and in charge, not Umar(ra) and it gives the impression that you as a Bahai are criticizing someone who is an infallible Manifestation according to the Bahai faith. So its like you hate Islam/Muslims so much that you don't even care about the positive things that the Bahai Faith actually has to say about Islam, you just have your own agenda. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Was somebody else approving the raids? On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually, there were a series of raids on Meccan caravans in the first 1-2 years of hijrah; and one of them occurred during the forbidden month of Rajab (I think it was the Nakhlah raid), one of them precipitated Badr. It's all in ibn-e ishaq and Tabari, and Bukhari, etc. So that we are clear, are you talking about raids which were approved of / commanded by / directed by Muhammad? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549224-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549228-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549229-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The facts are the facts and they are unfortunate and inconvenient. But they are not lies. I am a man from Mars. Argue your points from a rational point of view, not because `Abdu'l-Baha said something in defense of Islam to a Christian audience. What is relevant on a Baha'i studies list is Baha'i studies not Gilberto's constant and unwanted barrage about the finality of his religion or its virtues, etc. He does not belong here and he refuses to leave. No, I was not condemning Islam. I am just stating the facts such as jihad and the facts that were in that video. Or permission to beat your wife. These are facts. In my view, they mean that the time of Islamic. Dispensation has passed. It's not a condemnation. I don't appreciate being lectured at regarding what a moral code of conduct for a Baha'i should be. I'd like to be given the latitude of making my own judgment based on my own understanding. Best regards and good night, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549239-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:38:38 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am just stating the facts. You draw your own conclusions. Your posting material irrelevant to the list purpose with the agenda of denigrating Islam. So, the raids were ordered by Muhammad himself. Right? The Baha'i concept of Manifestation of God is irrelevant here. It should be relevant on a Bahai list. Gilberto is quite right here. Or, maybe I am a Baha'i that is quite selective in his beliefs just like you who are so conveniently selective in your beliefs and sources, etc. None of your business. If you want to keep your religious beliefs secret you've picked a funny way to show it. Indeed. This list is hardly private. We know there are people here pretending to be Baha'is who are in fact likely agents of those forces which are persecuting Baha'is in Iran. Do we really need to give them this sort of ammunition because you have a bone to pick with Gilberto? Last has nothing to do with it. The issue is that if you have your own moral code which you use to condemn the actions of Muhammad then you aren't really following the Bahai writings. Exactly. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549239-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549245-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
List and member of bahai-st
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm just wondering what is Gilberto's point in staying on this bahai-st list. He has been asked to leave, more than once, and he is still here. Why? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549085-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: List and member of bahai-st
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan was just being polite, tolerant, kind, and magnanimous. Yes, she can remove you. No, she didn't because she was being polite. When she told you that you were no longer welcome, then the ball was in your court to have yourself removed if you were courteous and if you cared about netiquette. I'd doubt if either Mark or Susan will actually remove you from the list. The instructions to get yourself removed from the list are at the bottom of each and every posting and I think it does work. I think you are insincere, in more ways than one. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv When Susan initially said I was no longer welcome I thought the response was excessive but I basically assumed that I would eventually be removed. But when I kept getting e-mails from the list I didn't know what to think. (Did Susan change her mind? Did Mark disagree with Susan? Did Khazeh or someone else convince her to change? I don't know.) I definitely got some off-list and on-list comments which were much more supportive of my participation. And so basically I just chose not to pry into why I continued to receive e-mails and basically assumed that Susan didn't have the right/ability to unilaterally remove me from the list. I was quiet for a while. I tried to be a little bit more sensitive to the issues which seemed to upset certain individuals, but otherwise felt free to participate and contribute. At some point I actually tried to unsubscribe but for some reason it didn't work. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I want to know why he defies the wishes of the listowner, more than once. I want to hear from Gilberto himself. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 28 Dec 2010 at 15:03, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm just wondering what is Gilberto's point in staying on this bahai-st list. He has been asked to leave, more than once, and he is still here. Why? Why should he? I for one appreciate his participation. Sen -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549101-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549108-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549113-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: List and member of bahai-st
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Be advised and forewarned: the gloves are off. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549116-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the hadith that you quoted: * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of war were made lawful unto me. --- Do you really and sincerely believe that kind of rubbish about your Prophet? You are a sick man if you do. Plain and simple. As I said, go back and re-read the other ahadith that you quoted and read them carefully. Most of them are just garbage. They were simply made up and fabricated decades later for various other purposes. If you have to resort to insults it just makes me lose respect for you. You are entitled to your opinion but I really don't have any desire to have you address me. What you fail to see is that the hadith that you had quoted, if read carefully, is disrespectful towards all the other Prophets of God; and if/when you believe that your Prophet could have said it, then you definitely have a sick mind. That's why I believe that that hadith (and some of the other ones) were bogus and fabricated. But, a hadith is a hadith, is a hadith. If you are so 200% convinced that Islam is the last religion, Quran is the last Word, and Muhammad is the very last Messenger of God, then what are you doing on this Baha'i list? You want to convert us back to Islam? About 17:95, what it says and you fail to see, is that even if humans become so spiritually advanced as angels, they will still need a Messenger (an angel Messenger). So, even if your so wonderful religion succeeds in transforming human beings to angel equals, they will still need new Divine Revelation but you choose to be blind to all of that and go back to some story that someone narrated about that 17:95 verse, etc., The verse doesn't speak about human beings spiritually advancing. Although I can see that IF you are already commited to the Bahai Faith you might want to see such a meaning in the text. But the text itself doesn't really suggest it. In context, it is pretty clearly refering to how the people at THAT TIME expected Muhammad (saaws) to perform tricks for them. Not some distant future where everyone is a superhero. No that is not what the actual Text says. You are reading into it things that it does not say. etc. And read 18:109 wherein God says that His Words are limitless. The hadith from Ayasha is in Khazeh's papers and it is as good as any other hadith that you quoted. Read the Good Book itself, read the Surah of AAl-ImrAAn. Again, just as Bahais have their own rules for which texts they will accept or reject, so do Muslims. So again, you may be entitled to your own opinion about when a hadith is good but you shouldn't expect Muslims to treat you like an alim and follow your opinion. So? So what? What I am saying is that the Text of the Good Book rejects the notion of finality. This notion of finality is a disease afflicting all religious traditions, and it's irrational, ludicrous, and unfounded. At the end of the day, a hadith is a hadith is a hadith, is a hadith. - Didn't Susan ask you to leave this list a couple of years ago? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547756-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences. But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked and then when you do actually analyze those six things, they are rather bogus. And you fail to see that. You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new Divine Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and awliyAA, and reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the Founder and Author of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation. This is self definition. You don't address that. Khazeh's paper and Moojan's paper address many many issues from a variety of angles and perspectives. You don't address or engage them. Or, you just can't. By they way, how on earth did Moses spoke directly with God? Did God speak with Moses in Hebrew or in Arabic, or what? How can God speak, anyhow? How does God communicate with other Prophets? Via SMS text messaging? On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Iskandar, The point which I don't think you are seeing is that all the prophets would have had special things about them which distinguish them from one another. Adam was the first prophet. Moses is said to have spoken to God directly. Joseph was said to be exceedingly beautiful. Jonah was one of the few prophets who preached to his people so that they averted punishment. The flipside is that other prophets weren't distinguished in those specific ways but had other attributes of excellence. On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: This is the hadith that you quoted: * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of war were made lawful unto me. --- Do you really and sincerely believe that kind of rubbish about your Prophet? You are a sick man if you do. Plain and simple. As I said, go back and re-read the other ahadith that you quoted and read them carefully. Most of them are just garbage. They were simply made up and fabricated decades later for various other purposes. If you have to resort to insults it just makes me lose respect for you. You are entitled to your opinion but I really don't have any desire to have you address me. What you fail to see is that the hadith that you had quoted, if read carefully, is disrespectful towards all the other Prophets of God; and if/when you believe that your Prophet could have said it, then you definitely have a sick mind. That's why I believe that that hadith (and some of the other ones) were bogus and fabricated. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-547758-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547765-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences. But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked and then when you do actually analyze those six things, they are rather bogus. If all you can say is that I'm bogus and aren't giving an actual reason, then I'm going to let this drop. Feel free to believe what you like on that point. I don't care. But EVEN IF that one hadith is bogus there are still over a dozen which using different phrasing and different phrasing say that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet. The argument doesn't just depend on the poetic meaning of the word seal or the validity of one or two hadith. Since you seem to reject the hadith as a whole anyway, I don't expect you to believe it. But I'm also okay with that. -- I don't have time to go over all the ahadith that you had quoted but if you read them very carefully, and if you are unbiased, you will see that some or most of them have problems. I don't say you are bogus. I'm saying the hadith is bogus. But then you become so conveniently selective in picking and choosing your ahadith that it becomes ludicrous. Who are you? Are you a Muslim hadith scholar and theologian or something? You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new Divine Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and awliyAA, and reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the Founder and Author of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation. This is self definition. You don't address that. Initially I was responding to someone who said that the Bahai view since (in his opinion) it didn't allow for religion to be renewed. And so I mentioned those figures because they provide a way for religion to be renewed. Of course that would happen in a different way than the Bahai faith advocates because we are talking about two different religions. What is your point? But also, if you really look at what the Sufis are claiming when they say that a saint is an insan al-kamil or the qutb of the age it isn't small potatos. They don't just mean he or she is a boy scout If you really look into the issue, they are basically saying that the person is like a Manifestation in the Bahai sense, a powerful perfect polished mirror, capable of receiving kashf (unveiling) and ilham (inspiration). -- They still seld describe themselves as Muslims. None of them have ever dared to change one iota of Islamic shari`ah law. Baha'u'llah abrogated laws of past Dispensations by Divine authority. That's the difference. Khazeh's paper and Moojan's paper address many many issues from a variety of angles and perspectives. You don't address or engage them. Or, you just can't. Because I've read the paper and thought about it before and discussed different parts of it on this list before. --- No, you have not. You cannot. By they way, how on earth did Moses spoke directly with God? Did God speak with Moses in Hebrew or in Arabic, or what? How can God speak, anyhow? How does God communicate with other Prophets? Via SMS text messaging? To get into the detailed theological issues would be controversial. There are technical differences between Muslims (Mutazilites, Asharis, Maturidis) on the nature of God's speech and I'm not sure what the technical Bahai position (I'd guess Mutazilite, but I really don't know for sure). But in terms of broad textual support, the Quran, the Bab, Bahaullah, and Shoghi Effendi ALL refered to Moses with the title he who conversed/discoursed with God. he who conversed/discoursed with God is just a title. You made it sound like it's really a difference. Prophets all speak with God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-54-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv None of the ahadith that you quote are categorical. If you read them carefully, most (or all) of them are dubious at best. Do you really and sincerely believe that the Prophet Muhammad ever implied that He was somehow better than other Prophets, that His speech was more pithy than the speech of other Prophets? Do you really believe in such nonsense? And how do you think the Shi`ah is going to read the hadith that you quote from the Prophet that after Him there will be only Caliphs? What nonsense. At any rate, show me just one clear Text from the Good Book in which God says that there will never come any other Messsenger from God for humanity and anywhere in the Quran wherein God said to take it literally. In fact the Good Book just says the exact opposite, that Divine Revelation is limitless, that if men were as good as angels, God still would send them a Messenger from amingst the angels, etc., etc. What about the other ahadith that contradict the ahadith that you quoted? I mean, come on, give me a break. Clear and compelling evidence! My foot. Iskandar On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 12/16/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv And from a Muslim perspective, the textual support for the finality of Muhammad's messengership and prophethood is in an analagous way clear, strong, varied, persuasive and compelling Half a phrase from a text which repeatedly condemn those who say God will not send any more prophets is compelling? Not just based on the Quran but from the hadith and the writings of the imams... for example, Khazeh's paper refers to a quote from Ali: God sent Muhammad at a time when for a long time no prophet had appeared, and people were suffering from religious differences and squabbles; God terminated [khatama bihi al-wahy] the institution of Prophethood with Prophet Muhammad. (Imam `Alí, Nahj al-Balághah qtd. in Noori, Finality 5) And then there are the prophetic hadith. Some Bahais may not accept them but that doesn't really matter. Many religions (including the Bahai Faith) have their own rules about which texts are authoritative can certainly be different from the texts which non-members find valid or effective. If the doctrine of finality just depended on the meaning of the word khatam or seal you could certainly argue that perhaps the text is metaphorical, but if you look at all the texts collectively, there are too many different wordings for one to make that argument. * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me. (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib). * The Prophet of God (PBUH) affirmed: My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marvelled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets. (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib). (In other words, with the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the edifice of Prophethood has been completed and there is no empty niche in this edifice to provide room for another prophet.) Four traditions relating to this subject are recorded, in Muslim, Kitab-ul-Fada'il, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin. The latter tradition contains the following additional sentence. So I came and in me the line of Prophets has ended. The very same tradition in similar words has been reported in Tirmidhi, Kitab-ul-Manaqib, Bab-Fadlin Nabi and Kitab-Adab, Bab-ul-Amthal. In Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi this tradition has been incorporated among other traditions reported by Jabir bin Abdullah; and its last sentence reads, It is in me that line of Prophets came to its final end. Musnad Ahmad contains traditions reported by Hadrat Ubayyi bin Ka'b, Hadrat Abu Sa'id Khudri and Hadrat Abu Huraira(may Allah be pleased with them) on the same subject with a slight variation of words here and there. * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of war were made lawful unto me. The whole earth has been made the place of worship for me and it has become the means of purification for me also. In other words in my religion, offering of prayers is not confined to certain specified places of worship. Prayers can be offered at any place over the earth. And in case water is not available it is lawful for my
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Give me a break, Gilberto. Just give me a break. You were quotiing hadith in which Muhammad said that God gave gave him things such as a pithy speech, etc. that He did not give other Prophets. You belive that nonsense? Yes, 17:95 does prove my point. What about the hadith from Ayesha that says: say Muhmmad was the Seal of Prophets but don't say that no Prophet will follow him.? On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv None of the ahadith that you quote are categorical. If you read them carefully, most (or all) of them are dubious at best. Perhaps according to you, but not necessarily according to Muslims. Do you really and sincerely believe that the Prophet Muhammad ever implied that He was somehow better than other Prophets, No, but nothing I wrote said anything like that. that His speech was more pithy than the speech of other Prophets? I think that different prophets had different attributes from one another. There must have been a tallest prophet, a shortest prophet, a youngest prophet, a most long-lived prophet/ why not a pithiest prophet? And how do you think the Shi`ah is going to read the hadith that you quote from the Prophet that after Him there will be only Caliphs? Well, since the word caliph actually means successor and since that is the term we use to describe the people who actually DID follow after the prophet, I guess if they are fair, they would have to agree that it is accurate, if not authentic. In any case, I think your objection is really besides the point. I actually started off with a quote from Nahj al-Balagha ( a Shia text) where Ali clearly says that the institution of prophethood was terminated with Muhammad (saaws). Furthermore, regardless of the specific evidences for each side, Sunnis and Shias actually AGREE on the finality of prophethood. At any rate, show me just one clear Text from the Good Book in which God says that there will never come any other Messsenger from God for humanity and anywhere in the Quran wherein God said to take it literally. If you don't want to believe in the doctrine, then I literally have no desire to convince you otherwise. I do however, think you should understand that Bahais and Muslims are different communities with different rules for which texts they will accept. For example, I might find some interesting statements about Bahai beliefs and teachings in a book, but it may happen to be a Pilgrim's note. A modern journalist or historian might give the statement a certain amount of weight, but from a Bahai perspective you would ignore it in the sense that pilgrim's notes are not binding at all. In a similar kind of way (but in a different direction) Muslims texts aren't limited to the Quran but also includes the hadith collections. You may want to discount them because you don't like them or you disagree with the conclusions which they support but Muslims are following a different set of rules. And on this particular issue I might even agree with you that one possibly metaphorical verse in the Quran is not decisive evidence for the doctrine of finality of prophethood, but I do think that when you include the hadith the issue is decisively clear. In fact the Good Book just says the exact opposite, that Divine Revelation is limitless, that if men were as good as angels, God still would send them a Messenger from amingst the angels, etc., etc. Is this what you mean? [17.94] And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be an apostle? [17.95] Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle. I don't think that means what you seem to be suggesting. What about the other ahadith that contradict the ahadith that you quoted? If you believe that there are any then its on you to produce them. I mean, come on, give me a break. Clear and compelling evidence! My foot. Peace __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-547609-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the hadith that you quoted: * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of war were made lawful unto me. --- Do you really and sincerely believe that kind of rubbish about your Prophet? You are a sick man if you do. Plain and simple. As I said, go back and re-read the other ahadith that you quoted and read them carefully. Most of them are just garbage. They were simply made up and fabricated decades later for various other purposes. About 17:95, what it says and you fail to see, is that even if humans become so spiritually advanced as angels, they will still need a Messenger (an angel Messenger). So, even if your so wonderful religion succeeds in transforming human beings to angel equals, they will still need new Divine Revelation but you choose to be blind to all of that and go back to some story that someone narrated about that 17:95 verse, etc., etc. And read 18:109 wherein God says that His Words are limitless. The hadith from Ayasha is in Khazeh's papers and it is as good as any other hadith that you quoted. Read the Good Book itself, read the Surah of AAl-ImrAAn. Forget about hadith. Enough said. On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Give me a break, Gilberto. Just give me a break. You were quotiing hadith in which Muhammad said that God gave gave him things such as a pithy speech, etc. that He did not give other Prophets. You belive that nonsense? Instead of just exclaiming give me a break and getting emotional, can you give a clear and cogent specific reason for why you don't believe it? Yes, 17:95 does prove my point. How? Allahu alim, but the basic point seems to be that the unbelievers were challenging Muhammad (saaws) with all sorts of miracles and Muhammad answers back that he is only a human. If there were angels living on the earth in settled communities then God would send them an angel as a prophet, but humans live on the earth and so God sent a human prophet. It doesn't say anything about how prophets would keep coming. What about the hadith from Ayesha that says: say Muhmmad was the Seal of Prophets but don't say that no Prophet will follow him.? I tried to do a search for the phrse don't say that no prophet will follow him and what came up was an exchange from over 4 years ago including the two of us on a related subjectlol But the simple answer to your question is that most Muslim scholars would probably sat that particular hadith was not authentic. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-547649-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547678-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And Baha'u'llah Himself further clarified what He had meant to say. Later `Abdu'l-Baha further re-inforced the clarification. I have a recollection of a passage somewhere in Baha'u'llah's Writings in which He is implying that Divine Revelation is not a child's play that every so many years someone would want to claim it. On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Adib Masumian adibmasum...@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older religions have done That might be a more viable argument if Baha'u'llah hadn't unequivocally declared the following to this effect in verse 37 of the Aqdas: Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Adib On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What I find interesting about this movement is that it is like holding a mirror to some Baha'is in regards to what they say about other religions. Some Baha'is tell followers of older religions that the scriptures are not meant to be taken literally, especially in regards to passages that seemingly claim a particular Prophet is the last Prophet. What I find interesting about Maitreya, is that he uses the same argument against Baha'is. Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older religions have done, whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a kind of exceptionalism; which is what we all do when confronted with this kind of issue. If anything, I think new religious movements in general act as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day. On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://www.maitreya.org/ Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament, Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern scriptures.[18]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Prophecies_of_Maitreya-17Perhaps the most prominent example of Emmanuel's claims to being the Maitreya is the fact that his main teaching seeks to unify the world's religions by means of showing how each religion corresponds to one of seven seals.[19]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Seven_Seals-18His use of the term seal is a reference to a central tenet of Christian eschatological belief described in the Bible, in which it is predicted that Christ would return and open a book sealed with seven seals (Rev 5:5http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205version=NIV). The Mission of Maitreya also makes claims that link Emmanuel's teaching of seven seals to Buddhist tradition. According to Buddhist Scriptures, the Maitreya Buddha will take seven steps forward, and where he puts down his feet a jewel or lotus will spring up.[20]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Prophecies_Website-19 [21]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Scriptures-20Emmanuel was originally a student of the yoga teacher P.R. Sarkar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prabhat_Ranjan_Sarkar in India, who founded Ananda Marga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda_Marga, and while in this organization, Emmanuel was given the spiritual name Maitreya. This has been cited as further evidence by the Mission of Maitreya that Joseph Emmanuel is the true Maitreya. I was surfing through Wikipedia and found this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547391-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Show me a Text in the Good Book wherein it says that you have to take the Seal of the Prophets verse as meaning *literally* the very last Person sent by God. On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv And from a Muslim perspective, the textual support for the finality of Muhammad's messengership and prophethood is in an analagous way clear, strong, varied, persuasive and compelling. At times, when Bahais talk about it, it is framed as a character defect. Everybody claims to just be following what their texts say and somehow there must be something wrong with those who have a different interpretation. In EVERY religion there are SOME people who do this. On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older religions have done, whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a kind of exceptionalism; Dear Matt, It is not an issue of exceptionalism We take the passage literally because Baha'u'llah explicitly told us to do so in this case. Everything else we have regarding the next Manifestation might well be symbolic. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-547394-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-547399-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547401-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Question About Muhammad's Wives
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Reference, please. On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: Maimonides held that 3 was the permissible marriage age. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-542703-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Are you on facebook, dear Shahram? On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:18 PM, shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Matt, The meaning of Radical or Extremist is clear.such a person or view can be in both wings. Tks/Rohani __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-541262-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Pahlavi Gov't In Exile
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I thought he lived in Maryland all along. I've heard him say a couple of times, in interviews and in answer to the question about his political aspirations, etc., that he does not neccessarly feels he is entitled to the throne (even though he is a prince) automatically. He always says he will let the will of the people prevail. I'm most impressed by his excellent command of the Persian language, even though he left Iran as a child. On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Reza Pahlavi was about 19 when his father died in exile. I'm sure he would like to be king, but he has lived most of his adult life in Southern California. It is not exactly as though he has the skills or background to rule Iran. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-540361-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Eid Al-Adha
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Happy Eid Al-Adha (commonly known as Eid ghorbAAn in Persian) to all my Muslim friends; may all receive Divine blessings. Best regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-540197-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: request
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Suratu'l-Haykal. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Dean Betts fdbe...@mindspring.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Isn't there a description somewhere of the Maid of Heaven appearing during the time when He was reveiving the Revelation? - Original Message - From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Re: request The Baha'i Studies Listserv Please, where can I find Baha'u'llah's own description of his Revelation in the Siya-Chal? As to the dungeon in which this Wronged One and others similarly wronged were confined, a dark and narrow pit were preferable. Upon Our arrival We were first conducted along a pitch-black corridor, from whence We descended 21 three steep flights of stairs to the place of confinement assigned to Us. The dungeon was wrapped in thick darkness, and Our fellow prisoners numbered nearly a hundred and fifty souls: thieves, assassins and highwaymen. Though crowded, it had no other outlet than the passage by which We entered. No pen can depict that place, nor any tongue describe its loathsome smell. Most of these men had neither clothes nor bedding to lie on. God alone knoweth what befell Us in that most foul-smelling and gloomy place! Day and night, while confined in that dungeon, We meditated upon the deeds, the condition, and the conduct of the Bábís, wondering what could have led a people so high-minded, so noble, and of such intelligence, to perpetrate such an audacious and outrageous act against the person of His Majesty. This Wronged One, thereupon, decided to arise, after His release from prison, and undertake, with the utmost vigor, the task of regenerating this people. (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 20) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:fdbe...@mindspring.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-538081-18515.b4c148b36ad0c21e46d1fc1f51d51...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-538174-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-538178-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Law in Religion
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I might say: as much emphasis as deemed necessary by the Head of the Faith. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv how much emphasis on laws do Baha'is have? From the beginning of the Kitab-i-Aqdas: The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537376-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537390-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Religion and Women
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The point, dear Matt, is that at the end of the day and in the final analysis you choose one religion (or no religion for that matter) over others. And this should not irk you. If it does, so be it. You chose Islam and I chose the Baha'i Faith. If this irks an atheist or a Christian, so be it. And Baha'is do not consider Buddhists wayward people who will go to hell or anything like that. No. I'd believe in the acadaemic study and textual criticism of the Qura'n, for instance. This doesn't mean that I consider Qur'an to be a fake or forged text or devoid of spiritual value. No. It still has spiritual value even if you can find a pre-Islamic text that is in it word for word. salAAm, peace, shalom Iskandar On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, Of course we all have reasons why we choose a particular path over others, and that they speak to us more fully than the others - hence why we identify ourselves as such. I think it is possible for one to do that without being supremacist. For example, I don't believe the Baha'i Faith is an evil religion or that its adherents are apostates from Islam. My reasons for identifying with Islam are complex and many, I couldn't possibly explain them adequately in an email forum message. But an important reason is Islam's diversity, that there are many strands of thought, theology, and philosophy in Islam - sometimes to the point that it appears that they are different religions altogether. I also have felt that I had a personal calling to Islam that I did not have with the Baha'i Faith. But none of that proves Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith, or vice versa. *If it irks you, so be it; you irk atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc. And please don't tell me that those other religions don't have the true or authentic scripture nonsense. That's just bull. * ** I want you to remember that comment the next time someone uses the Baha'is as a bad example, or insults your beloved Faith in anyway, and tell yourself so be it. I irk them. I never said anything about other religions not having authentic scriptures. I would be careful saying it is bull, considering Shoghi Effendi said this about Buddhist scriptures; *Regarding Hinduism and Buddhism, Shoghi Effendi says that we cannot be sure of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna (*Lights of Guidance,* 2d ed., 503), and that no one possesses the Buddha's authentic writings (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects, 21). Shoghi Effendi often advised Baha'is to turn to historians and religious scholars in order to learn about Hinduism and Buddhism (Ibid., 19, 20, 21; *Lights of Guidance,* 1st ed., 382).* ** http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/scripture.html I did not present that to start a fight with you, it's just that it seems like any time myself or Gilberto express any concern over how Islam is being insulted in some manner, you basically tell us that we have no right to express concern - and that it's those bad Muslims in the East that are persecuting Baha'is - therefore we have no reason to complain. Truth be told, I let most things slide, and when I do finally express a concern, I never want it to turn into a debate that eats up the main topic at hand. Allahu Abha On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto and Matt: On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I think we understand one another. On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be compassionate and just to women. As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith (in my understanding) is a Dispensationalist religion - whereby it is believed that God sort of took His/Her Spirit away from the most previous revelation (Islam), and placed it in the hands of the Baha'i Faith. Therefore, all spiritual progress that has since been made by other religions is to really be credited to the Baha'i Faith for being the kind of command center of the religious universe, that is sending out inspiration to the rest of the religious world. Hence, progress made in other religions is not to be credited to those religions themselves, but to the Baha'i Faith
Re: Religion and Women
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: Of course Rodwell was non-Muslim and has translation hasn't held up well. Yusuf Ali renders the passage: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. And I've also seen the explanation that devoutly obedient is NOT to the husband but obedient to God. How convenient. Thank God, I know Arabic and I can read the Good Book in its original language. And again, this is really not radically different. In the Bahai faith men are treated differently interms of economics (they have to pay dowry to the wife, they get more money in the default inheritence) and any soldiers in a Bahai society would have to be male (a kind of protection). I'm not saying the rules are the same. Islam and the Bahai faith are obviously different religions. But it is not the case that one is egalitarian and the other is not. I'm glad you are implying that you read egalitarianism in Islam. That's good. But you cannot tell me that the Baha'i Faith is not egalitarian. The whole thrust of the teachings and laws of the Baha'i Faith is to promote and establish gender equality. Something that Islam has not done in its first 1000 years or so. Best regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537392-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Matt's comments are important. I'd agree with Matt. I think we can all agree that having a sin-covering eye is a virtue; but, so is speaking truth to power, so is standing up for justice and fairness, so is protecting the rights of the down trodden, the minorities, so is standing up against injustice, cruelty, oppression, and tyranny. And, sometimes, these virtues might seem to be in conflict. My feeling is that if someone does me wrong, it would be admirable and virtuous of me to have a sin-covering eye, to forgive, to pardon, not to seek revenge, etc. But, if someone does you wrong, it's a different story then. You can't have compassion or a sin-covering eye for a devouring wolf because it is injustice to the lamb and to the shepherd (I'm just using an analogy, and an exaggerated example to make my point). Anyway, thanks Matt. Best regards, Iskandar On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I am making a distinction between the Shi'a and Baha'i view, because they are slightly different. The Baha'i perspective has its roots in the Shi'a view, but it departs in some important ways from it. For example, when Quratulayn-Tahirih refused to mourn the martyrdom of Hussein, she did so under the pretense that the 12th Imam/Qa'im/Mahdi was here and alive. Thus, it was a time for celebration rather than mourning what is past. I do realize that most Sunnis agree with 'Ali and the Family of the Prophet over Mu'awiyya and Yazid. There are a few exceptions, such as Bilal Phillips who depicts Mu'awiyya as a pious man who sincerely followed his conscience. I personally have a hard time believing that. I don't understand how a person could be so far removed from the clear utterances and actions of the Prophet toward his family, and do so many things to harm them, and still have good intentions while doing so. Having a difficult time understanding why the Prophet would choose a successor among his own family instead of the usual egalitarian method of resorting to a council of elders, is one thing. But it's something else entirely to actively engage in acts of rebellion against the Prophet's family, and furthermore justify it in the name of Monotheism. As if Monotheism requires that you treat the family of one's own Prophet with contempt. I don't understand why I should have a sin-covering eye of Mu'awiyya when he made it mandatory to curse 'Ali in all Mosques of his domain, for all five prayers. He didn't seem to have a sin-covering eye of 'Ali, and 'Ali didn't do anything wrong. On the other hand, 'Ali showed infinite patience and reserve toward his foe who proved to view Islam in political rather than religious terms. It might sound great for unity's sake to let bygones be bygones, but I think it is dangerous to assume that anyone who did anything bad still had good intentions in their heart. This notion that simply being a companion of the Prophet absolves you of all wrong doing, seems rather convenient to me, for its very construct seems to imply that there is a lot of wrong doing that one could talk about. As Susan already mentioned, Mu'awiyya literally converted to Islam at the last second. It is possible that he had some quick epiphany, but from a historical perspective it certainly looks like a pragmatic move on his part to escape execution, for Islam was tolerant in terms of the times by allowing enemies to escape death through conversion, something not done by other tribes with war captives. I would never think that Sunnis are pro-killing Hussein. I agree that is crazy. I am just uncomfortable with this notion that I have to assume everyone who did something bad, had good intentions in their heart. How can a person righteously hate 'Ali, Hasan, and Hussein? My mind just can not grasp the concept. Perhaps that is the Shi'a in me. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in totality. Are you making some distinction between the Shia view and the Bahai view? For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective, the world just doesn't work in good guys/bad guys with clearly defined lines of good and evil. The world is more complicated than that. I side with 'Ali, Hasan and Husayn over Mu'awiyya and Yazid any day. I hope you realize that for Sunnis, Muawiyya and Yazid were wrong?! My criticism of the Sunni narrative is that does seem to whitewash the evil that men did, and to simply ask those who were brutally damaged to just forgive and forget. It's easy to say that when one is on top, which Sunnis have historically
Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I might want to clarify that, even though the Babi and Baha'i Faiths were born in a Shi`ah culture, yet Babi-Baha'i theology in some important areas rejects and condemns certain Shi`ah positions. For instance, Baha'u'llah rejects the Shi`ah notion of considering the Imams as co-equals with the Prophet Muhammad. Also, many abrogations in the Aqdas refer to abrogations of Shi`ah fiqh/law/shari`ah. In the case of the Promised Mahdi, Baha'u'llah clearly endorses the Sunni expectation that the Promised Mahdi would be born and Baha'u'llah rejects the Shi`ah notion that the Promised Mahdi was born in the year 255A.H. and is still physically alive and well. Best regards, Iskandar On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: Um.. because in spite of the direction the discussion has taken I actually didn't want to rehash the entire history of Sunni-Shia polemics on a Bahai list. I suppose it is arguably relevant since the Bahais come out of the Shia side and obviously adopt many of their positions. My main goal was to just point out that your initial description of the Umayyads followed the Shia perspective, and I wanted to give a contrasting view. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-534890-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Unauthorized Institutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is Ruth White and Ahmad Sohrab stuff. I'd suggest that you read the Kitab-i Aqdas, the Ishraqat, Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, messages from Shoghi Efendin in Baha'i Administration and in World Order of Baha'u'llah, and reda them carefully, please. Best regards, Iskandar On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Important Quotes: The Baha'i Movement is not an organization. You can never organize the Baha'i Cause. The Baha'i movement is the spirit of the age. It is the essence of all the highest ideals of this century. The Baha'i Cause is an INCLUSIVE MOVEMENT: The teachings of all the religions and societies are found here; the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mohammedans, Zoroastrians, Theosophists, Freemasons, Spiritualists, et. al. find their highest aims in this Cause. Even the Socialists and philosophers find their theories fully developed in this Movement. (Abdu'l-Baha, quoted in The Baha'i Temple at Wilmette To Be Built with Money from Every Race, Clime and Religion under the Sun, By Isabel Fraser, The North Shore Review, May 16, 1914, in Star of the West, Vol. 25, p. 67) *There are no officers in this Cause. I do not and have not 'Appointed' anyone to perform any special service, but I encourage everyone to engage in the service of the Kingdom. The foundation of this Cause is pure spiritual democracy and not a theocracy. - Abdu'l-Bahá* *To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood. - Abdu'l-Baha* -- *From:* Shamim Bina shamimb...@gmail.com *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:54:55 AM *Subject:* Re: Unauthorized Institutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv If the institution of the Guardianship were still around today, the Guardian would be an Aghsan and would be a member of the House of Justice. He would be one of its members and the head member. That is what I have read and heard over and over from the Writings and very knowledgeable Bahai's. Also if you have further questions, look up video talks on youtube of Ali Nakhjavani talking about all this at the New Zealand conference 2006. it is all on youtube. if you need a link please let me know. Sincerely, Shamim On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's not one of their outlined duties. In the abscence of a Guardian, The UHJ has usurped powers that belong to the Guardian. Just ask if there were a Guardian, would the UHJ have this much power? -- *From:* Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:33:23 AM *Subject:* Re: Unauthorized Institutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv After the death of Shoghi Effendi, theree was a proliferation of Baha'i Institutions. But, only the following are authoried: Dear Stephen, And what is your scriptural basis for arguing that the Universal House of Justice itself is not authorized to establish institutions? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-523809-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shamimb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523818-1944226.933e0c66580330b274b15976195b9...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Dedicate the precious days of your lives to the betterment of the world. ~ Bahá’u’lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
Re: Bahaullah's descendants was Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm having some difficulty understanding this. Who might this grandson have been? My understanding is that before Shoghi Effendi passed away, all the aghsan had, unfortunately, broken the Covenant. No? Who is this Baha'i scholar? And can you please ask him/her to give you the specific name of this grandson and the names of his parents? Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Minhaj Khan mak8...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I know a Baha'i scholar here who says he met a grandson of Abdul Baha. I'm not sure which grandson, but the man made it clear his father broke the covenant. He broke all ties with his father and stood steadfast in the cause. Not once did he claim the role of guardianship or any such leadership role based on his lineage. Abdul Baha never claimed that the guardianship was meant to be a permanent institution. The Kitab-i-Aqdas makes it clear that leadership will pass from the Aghsan to the people of Baha. The topic is clear and I see no reason why there should be any further discussion on it. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 27 Aug 2010 at 12:03, Gilberto Simpson wrote: If any of Bahaullah's descendants joined the mainstream Bahais would they be eligible for being Guardian or any other special role? They could not be the Guardian, since the prospective Guardian had to be nominated by his predecessor, and the choice approved by majority vote of a body of nine Hands of the Cause. The Guardianship is therefore definitively terminated (pending another Manifestation who will do as She pleases). See on my blog: http://tinyurl.com/NocounterfeitGuardians However the descendants of Baha'u'llah might have a position of honour. In the Kitab-e `ahd Baha'u'llah writes: It is incumbent upon everyone to show courtesy to, and have regard for the Aghsan, that thereby the Cause of God may be glorified and His Word exalted. This injunction hath time and again been mentioned and recorded in the Holy Writ. Well is it with him who is enabled to achieve that which the Ordainer, the Ancient of Days hath prescribed for him. Ye are bidden moreover to respect the members of the Holy Household, the Afnan and the kindred. ... (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 221) Sen -- -- Sen McGlinnhttp://senmcglinn.wordpress.com *** In reality, the radiant, pure hearts are the Mashrak-el-Azcar and from them the voice of supplication and invocation continually reacheth the Supreme Concourse. Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas, p. 678 -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:mak8...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-523097-22521...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-523366-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Sacred cows make the best hamburgers __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523456-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public -
Re: Bahaullah's descendants was Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, a Guardian would have to be designated as such by his predecesor. This, obviously, can't happen any longer. Best regards, Iskandar On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv If any of Bahaullah's descendants joined the mainstream Bahais would they be eligible for being Guardian or any other special role? __ -- Sacred cows make the best hamburgers __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523036-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How far do you live from Wilmette, Illinois, dear Stephen? There is a magnificent Baha'i house of worship there, on Sheridan Road in Wilmette. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-522831-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:47:48 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies Listserv There are no Baha'i places of worship in my area. Yellow Pages list all houses of worship as churches, even mosques (Churches-Islamic), synagouges (Churches-Jewish sometimes as Synogouges), gurdwaras (Churches-Sikh or Churches-Hindu or Churches-Islamic), etc. Is there any area in the country where you would open up a Yellow Pages and find a Churches-Baha'i section? I always thought of the Baha'i Faith as a religion where one's one home took the place of a mosque. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 3:38:26 PM Subject: Re: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, Mr. Stephen Grey, why are you posting links to covenant breaker websites? What game are you playing? Easy, Tim. Keep in mind that Stephen is a new believer and an isolated one. Virtually everything he knows about the Faith he has gotten off the internet. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522828-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522831-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Bayan (Where To Find?)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Browne has done an abbreviated translation of the whole contents of the Persian Bayan. You can find it in Moojan Momen's book. Dennis MacEoin has done some. I think Steve Lambden has done some too; I'm not sure. And then you have Selections from the Writings of the Bab. Recently, the book Gate of the Heart has some new translations, some retranslations, and some critique of previous translations. I cannot give you a percentage, though. Sorry. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-521805-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:26:04 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: The Bayan (Where To Find?) The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well then, what percent has been translated? From: Minhaj Khan mak8...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, August 23, 2010 11:20:52 AM Subject: Re: The Bayan (Where To Find?) The Baha'i Studies Listserv As far as I know, there's only been a full French translation by ALM Nicolas. On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone know where any can find a full English translation? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:mak8...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-521796-22521...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-521804-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-521805-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Halo effect
The Baha'i Studies Listserv They had flash back then, in 1912? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-520102-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:55 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Halo effect The Baha'i Studies Listserv It could be a by product of the flash of the camera. From: Adib Masumian adibmasum...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 9:49:43 AM Subject: Re: Halo effect The Baha'i Studies Listserv I've never noticed any such thing. I'll call that wishful thinking among Baha'is of Judeo-Christian background. ;) Best wishes, Adib On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:36 AM, David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I've heard Baha'is talk about the halo seen in various pictures of 'Abdu'l-Baha. I'm just wondering, is there a skeptical Baha'i view of this, or do all agree this is amazing? Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:adibmasum...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-519630-15803...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-519638-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-520102-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Halo effect
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Me neither. I haven't heard anyone say they saw a halo in a picture of `Abdu'l-Baha. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Adib Masumian adibmasum...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-519638-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:49:43 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Halo effect The Baha'i Studies Listserv I've never noticed any such thing. I'll call that wishful thinking among Baha'is of Judeo-Christian background. ;) Best wishes, Adib On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:36 AM, David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I've heard Baha'is talk about the halo seen in various pictures of 'Abdu'l-Baha. I'm just wondering, is there a skeptical Baha'i view of this, or do all agree this is amazing? Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:adibmasum...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-519630-15803...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-519638-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: I'jaz al-Quran (Ininmitability of the Quran)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Mirza Abu'l-Fadl discusses this issue in depth in his magnum opus, the al-farAA'id and I wish Khazeh would share with us his translation of that book. I agree with Susan. And the inimitability of the Quran or of the Writings of Baha'u'llah is not in their literary or stylistic or rhythmicity or rhyme or poetry or anything like that. The miracle is what the Word of God does to the human heart and soul, the transformative potency of the Word of God, its creative power, the ability of the Word of God to act like unto an elixir and change human beings for the better and start off civilizations, etc. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Religion and Exclusivism
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Religion and Exclusivism: A Baha'i Perspective by Julio Savi Published in Lights of Irfan Volume 7 pages 221-238 Wilmette, IL: Irfan Colloquia, 2006 The PDF of the full paper is here: http://irfancolloquia.org/pdf/lights7_savi_exclusivism.pdf Abstract: The author presents a survey of the Baha'i teachings on exclusivism on the ground of his understanding of the open letter addressed by the Universal House of Justice to the world's religious leaders in 2002 and the recent commentary prepared under its supervision. After a brief survey of the concept of exlusivism and its dangers, a possible definition of religion in the light of the Baha'i teachings is suggested. Nine essential features of the Baha'i concept of the oneness of religion expounded by Shoghi Effendi are then analyzed: 1. Religious truth is not absolute but relative; 2. Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process; 3. All the great religions of the world are divine in origin; 4. Their basic principles are in complete harmony; 5. Their aims and purposes are one and the same; 6. Their teachings are but facets of one truth; 7. Their functions are complementary; 8. They differ only in the non-essential aspects of their doctrines; 9. Their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society. Two corollaries of these concepts are also examined: 1. The God-given authority and correlative character of Scriptures; 2. All the great religions are continuous in their purpose and indispensable in their value to mankind. Despite the fundamental oneness of the messages of all religions, misinterpretations of the complex language of Scriptures, in particular of the implicit concept of progressive revelation, and an undue importance given by organized religion to tradition have contributed to distract the attention of religionists from the essential teachings of religion and to focus it towards its formal and secondary aspects. Dangerous claims to exclusivity or finality have been thus developed. The present conditions of the world are such as to encourage and assist all religions to correct these dangerous attitudes in the name of a peaceful coexistence of all the peoples of the world. http://bahai-library.com/savi_religion_exclusivism __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-518850-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, you are mistaken about The Bab's views on the so called 12th Imam. Read His Seven Proofs, for example. Samarra or Jamkaran, Jabolqa or Jaborsa, etc., is irrelevant. Hasan al- askari was not survived by any living son. Best regards, Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 29, 2010, at 4:26 AM, shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv All dear friends, Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la [Bab] in his words has acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in front of Jenab Mulla Hussein. Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well. Thanks, Rohani --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Then, there are no definitive interpretations? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/ Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of najas as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of the Seal of the Prophets is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about a lying impostor, etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and manifestation almost interchangeably.
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Continuing... On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. You are welcome. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. Yes, I agree. That is also highly emphasized in Islam. There is even a hadith which says that cleanliness is half of faith. Yes, I was aware of that hadith. Cleanliness is definitely taught in Islam. najas concept is not part of Baha'i teachings and laws. What is absent is the concept of najas as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. I understand what you are refering to. The verse which says idolaters are unclean. I understand that some scholars (especially) Shia may have a different view but do you believe me when I tell you that the Hanafi school (which is what I'm most familiar with, and which is the largest of the four Sunni schools) reads that particular verse spiritually? It does not say that the living body of a polytheist is najis? It says that polythesist can even enter the Kaaba? Oh, I certainly do believe you and understand what you say from a Hanafi point of view. I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca. It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then. Also, I found something interesting. Further down in this same surah, there is a verse which talks about how unbelievers responded to the revelation of the Quran. [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are unbelievers. I understand that the Kitab-I-Aqdas says: God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of uncleanness, whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. and I admit there are differences between the Muslim laws regarding what is clean and not clean for the purposes of prayer and the Bahai concept. So even though according to one quote people are no longer impure or unclean isn't there a concept of spiritual diseases in the Bahai faith where certain people are construed to have a contagious spiritual disease and should be shunned? I understand how a different word is used but don't you also see a little bit of similarity there as well? for the next point, let me just put the context back in: For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal interpretations and clouds in the writings would treat such a person like a lying impostor. I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. It just seems to me like you are talking about two separate things, and at one point the bar is one place and now you moved it elsewhere. First you started talking about God going into retirement and withholding His grace and bounty on humanity. And I hope it is clear that is nowhere near the Islamic position. There are many different ways which according to Islam, God continues to cause special individuals to appear to provide guidance, to revive religious truth, and to manifest his mercy on the world. And actually if you look up kashf (unveiling) and ilham (inspiration) you would see that even some form
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If I remember correctly, and Khazeh should correct me if I'm wrong, during the battle of Siffin, the Umayyads resorted to a ruse (when they realized that they would lose the war) by upholding Quran books on their spears at which time `Ali's followers disobeyed Him and did not bring the battle to a victory, even after He had reminded them that *He*, and not a piece of paper, was the Kitab nAAteq (versus Kitab sAAmet), that *He* was the Word of God. Or some similar story. Khazeh should know the details. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad, nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word. Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words. John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God. The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God brings all else into existence. I'm sure Khazeh can share with us more on this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-511592-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511649-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Hidden Words Persian 77
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Firouz: This has been explained by Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi.there is a file in one of the issues of the Baha'i Studies Review a few years ago that has compiled the interpretations. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear All, I have a question about the Hidden Words Persian 77. O SON OF JUSTICE! In the night-season the beauty of the immortal Being hath repaired from the emerald height of fidelity unto the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, and wept with such a weeping that the concourse on high and the dwellers of the realms above wailed at His lamenting . Whereupon there was asked, Why the wailing and weeping? He made re ply: As bidden I waited expectant upon the hill of faithfulness, yet inhaled not from them that dwell on earth the fragrance of fidelity . Then summoned to return I beheld, and lo! certain doves of holines s were sore tried within the claws of the dogs of earth. Thereupon t he Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent from Her m ystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told but one. And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered, whereupon the dwellers of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of their habitat ion of glory. And whilst the second letter was pronounced they fell down, one and all, upon the dust. At that moment a voice was heard f rom the inmost shrine: “Thus far and no farther.” Verily We bear witness to that which they have done and now are doing. I appreciate if someone could explain more about this Hidden Word. Also my specific question is to what their refers to. Thanks so much in advance. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510689-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510699-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510702-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers. Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now, according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish. So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying.. In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries, the Jewish family and
Re: Hidden Words Persian 77
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://bahai-library.com/bsr/bsr09/9H2_comp_hiddenwords.htm and scroll down to the Persian Hidden Words number 77. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Dr. Hai, Do you know how I can access this file? Is there a link to a site? Thanks for additional information. Warm regards, Firouz On 23/6/2010 6:31 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Firouz: This has been explained by Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi.there is a file in one of the issues of the Baha'i Studies Review a few years ago that has compiled the interpretations. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear All, I have a question about the Hidden Words Persian 77. O SON OF JUSTICE! In the night-season the beauty of the immortal Being hath repaired from the emerald height of fidelity unto the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, and wept with such a weeping that the concourse on high and the dwellers of the realms above wailed at His lamenting. Whereupon there was asked, Why the wailing and weeping? He made reply: As bidden I waited expectant upon the hill of faithfulness, yet inhaled not from them that dwell on earth the fragrance of fidelity. Then summoned to return I beheld, and lo! certain doves of holiness were sore tried within the claws of the dogs of earth. Thereupon the Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent from Her mystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told but one. And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered, whereupon the dwellers of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of their habitation of glory. And whilst the second letter was pronounced they fell down, one and all, upon the dust. At that moment a voice was heard from the inmost shrine: “Thus far and no farther.” Verily We bear witness to that which they have done and now are doing. I appreciate if someone could explain more about this Hidden Word. Also my specific question is to what their refers to. Thanks so much in advance. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510689-20805...@list.jccc.edu leave-510689-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org fir...@thai-bahais.org Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510699-511...@list.jccc.edu leave-510699-511...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510705-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510758-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
etc., etc.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
*[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*
The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
be used unless properly purified.
When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
will not suffer. This actually happened.
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat
*people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
several relevant texts on this point...
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto:
The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or
semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is
non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
English.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What is the difference between being in a state where one is legally
required to perform ablutions and being ritually impure?
Dear Gilberto,
Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even
if they have just had a bath,
Right and in Islam there are also ways of being clean in a
conventional way while still having to perform wudu/ghusl in order to
pray.
but the more thorough going ghusl in
Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This
is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure.
In Islam there are at least two levels of impurity. At one level, wudu
(ablutions) is sufficient. For other things ghusl (a more extensive
degree of ablutions) is necessary.
I was just looking at different citations on True Seeker and I guess I
understand that there are Bahai writings which say that purity laws
have been abolished. And I suppose it is pretty explicit that semen is
considered ritually clean in the Bahai laws. But there are also
required ablutions for prayer, and rules about menstruating women
praying in a different way and instructions to pray on a clean
surface.
In the Aqdas provision 75 (I'm not sure how to refer to the
subdivisions) says the concept of uncleanliness has been abolished.
But the very next provision says:
God hath enjoined upon you
Re: Baha'i Dating / Baha'i Marriage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Twodoves.net and bahaigroups.org and facebook Happy dating and happy Ridvan Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:11:04 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Baha'i Dating / Baha'i Marriage The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was wondering if anyone knew of any Baha'i dating website? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-501694-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Polishing the Mirror (the Soul)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think he did. I can't recall whether it was posted here in its entirety or not. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:49:14 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Polishing the Mirror (the Soul) The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think Sen's letter was posted here. On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:18 PM, David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Are you responding to a private message, David? Oh, I see it could have been misleading. I was responding to Sen's post including his letter to the House, though I didn't quote from it. Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-499875-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-499876-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Political views
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Your vote is secret. You do not have to divulge your vote to any person or agency, etc. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Shamim Bina shamimb...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:05:43 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv Very good question. I think you should not get into an argument while having the conversation. You can tell them that as Bahais we don't participate in partisan politics. Also, that Bahais are all about unity. In my opinion you should not defend the person that you voted for. Rather you should say that as Bahais we vote for who we think will do the best job in office to serve the country then decide without prejudice, racism, or any other interference like that. Sincerely, Shamim On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 6:28 AM, David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Baha'is may find themselves in the situation where a non-Baha'i tries to find out their political views. Let's say you are an American and the 2008 Presidential election has just taken place. How should you respond to a non-Baha'i asking Who did you vote for? If you do reveal who you voted for, and it's not who they voted for, they may ask you why you voted for that person. Does a Baha'i really want to be defending their choice to a non-Baha'i? Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shamimb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496196-19442...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Dedicate the precious days of your lives to the betterment of the world. ~ Bahá’u’lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496237-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Political views
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You have no obligation to divulge your vote. It's your choice. Nobody will prosecute you if you do voluntarily reveal your own (secret) vote. But you cannot be coerced to divulge your vote. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:40:23 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv Your vote is secret. You do not have to divulge your vote to any person or agency, etc. I don't know that we are obliged to keep it a secret, however. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496260-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Political views
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm talking about civil law, here in the U.S. of America. If you want to keep your vote a secret, the American civil law allows you to keep it a secret and protects you. If you want to reveal your vote, you can do so and you have not violated any American civil law. The choice is yours, and yours only. No one and no government agency or court can force you to divulge your vote, here in these United States of America. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Jeanine H. jeanin...@earthlink.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:06:31 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv I agree that we are probably not obliged to keep it a secret, because I've not yet seen in the Writings that there is such a specified obligation. Exercising wisdom by choosing not to reveal it is a different matter. I have seen people typecast because they revealed their vote, and I usually don't find that helpful in teaching the Faith (particularly in the current, highly-partisan atmosphere in the U.S.). IMO only. Jeanine On 3/31/2010 9:45 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You have no obligation to divulge your vote. It's your choice. Nobody will prosecute you if you do voluntarily reveal your own (secret) vote. But you cannot be coerced to divulge your vote. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Manecksman...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:40:23 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv Your vote is secret. You do not have to divulge your vote to any person or agency, etc. I don't know that we are obliged to keep it a secret, however. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496281-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Political views
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And keeping your vote a secret helps you not getting drawn into a partisan political debate. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Jeanine H. jeanin...@earthlink.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:30:32 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv Thanks, Iskandar. Altho' I could be wrong about the original questioner's intent, there is absolutely no question of the *legality* of choosing to keep your vote a secret i(n the U.S.). Additionally, you could perfectly well lie and no one would know the difference. I interpreted the question to be one about whether *Baha'is* should not reveal their vote; whether doing so would be a tacit participation in the partisan politics forbidden by the Faith. Other countries, no doubt, have other issues involved. Jeanine On 3/31/2010 10:20 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm talking about civil law, here in the U.S. of America. If you want to keep your vote a secret, the American civil law allows you to keep it a secret and protects you. If you want to reveal your vote, you can do so and you have not violated any American civil law. The choice is yours, and yours only. No one and no government agency or court can force you to divulge your vote, here in these United States of America. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Jeanine H.jeanin...@earthlink.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:06:31 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv I agree that we are probably not obliged to keep it a secret, because I've not yet seen in the Writings that there is such a specified obligation. Exercising wisdom by choosing not to reveal it is a different matter. I have seen people typecast because they revealed their vote, and I usually don't find that helpful in teaching the Faith (particularly in the current, highly-partisan atmosphere in the U.S.). IMO only. Jeanine On 3/31/2010 9:45 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You have no obligation to divulge your vote. It's your choice. Nobody will prosecute you if you do voluntarily reveal your own (secret) vote. But you cannot be coerced to divulge your vote. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Manecksman...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:40:23 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Political views The Baha'i Studies Listserv Your vote is secret. You do not have to divulge your vote to any person or agency, etc. I don't know that we are obliged to keep it a secret, however. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496281-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496315-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed
Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan: You are correct. This is the same Shahram Rohani. On another list, he is spreading other false rumors about Mr. Paul Lample. And Shahram made an erroneous statement about the 24 Elders, to which Sen replied. Apparently Shahram is quite misinformed and tries to disseminate dysinformation and misinformation. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:03:15 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Cc: shahramroh...@yahoo.com.didtheyreadit.com Subject: Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith The Baha'i Studies Listserv please note that Bahaullah has taught us that the size and number,or duration can not be a logical reason for correctness of a faith. Taught us? Are you a Baha'i? Why don't you spell His name right and quote Him directly? We should observe that the other groups,like Azalis,have existed the same time. I presume you mean the Bayanis? Technically that is a separate religion. Or if we consider the size n volume of followers of a religion,as a proof,then the total number of members of Bahai groups,or the population of Bahai Intl Community,in comparison with the followers of other faiths, will show an opposite result. Not the issue. The issue is that we were promised that no attempt to divide the Faith would have any long term success. The fact that these movements cannot persist over time is evidence of the truth of that promise. I think every message or claim ,in its essence and contents should be justifying and logical. Again, not the issue. I recall you posted here once before trying to justify the Iranian government persecuting Baha'is. Just what exactly are you up to? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486325-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Some Answerd Questions, in its original language, was published in Leiden Holland around 1908 or 1909 by the prestigious Brill. Also, the Secret of Divine Civilization, in its original language, was published during the life time of the Author. Browne published A Traveller's Narrative around 1891 in its original langauge and in its English translation. Many of the Letters that He wrote were also published and disseminated in His lifetime in a variety of ways and they were later republished in various collections or compilations after His passing. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:36:03 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv He was born in 1909 and the Bab died in 1850, so other than the reincarnation claim he should not be even remotely considered to a successor candidate. He also based that claim on the Ruthite claim that all of the works of 'Abdu'l-Baha that were published posthumously (ie after 1921) are inauthentic. This would include (I relied on wiki for the dates): Foundations of World Unity (1972) Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha (1978) 'Abdu'l-Baha in London (1982) The Promulgation of Universal Peace (1982) Some Answered Questions (1990) The Secret of Divine Civilization (1990) Tablets of the Divine Plan (1991) The Will Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha (1992) The Question of Universal Peace - The Tablet to the Hague by 'Abdu'l-Baha (1999) Paris Talks (1995) Memorial of the Faithful (1997) A Traveler's Narrative: Written to illustrate the episode of the Bab (2002) This list is way too long, but that is what they have condemned to being fake in their minds. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 7:10:34 PM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv They did so on the grounds that they think the Bab taught reincarnation, So because Dahesh thinks he is the reincarnation of the Bab that qualifies him to say that Some Answered Questions is a forgery? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483303-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483386-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Book of Covenant (kitab-i-ahd) is included in Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas. It is on http://reference.bahai.org Regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, she did not have materialistic leanings at all. She just loved and adored him. She too lived quite modestly after she got married. The beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi has described her as my shield and shelter. Best wishes, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:06:38 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, but that is not the problem in and of itself, it just proves she had motive and opportunity. From: Don Calkins montana...@great-falls.net To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 6:59:52 PM Subject: Re: Sects Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv I once read an article in American Baha'i on an unrelated, coincidental episode in the Gaurdian's life. He was very frugal. He wore the same coat all the time and it got old word out. 'Amatu'l-Baha bought him an exspensive coat. He had her sell it for a dozen cheapest coats, one for him and the rest for charity. I oversimplified the episode, but the point is her materialistic leanings. LOL How about her upper middle class upbringing? BTW, Remey was upper class and moving towards old money. He always traveled first class and dressed the part. Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482419-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482421-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Loic, There are quite a number of references in the Writings regarding your question. I'd recommend that U carefully study Abdu'l-Baha's last Tablet to America, even though the translation is a bit choppy. In it He cites passages from Baha'u'llah. Best, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:44:02 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Loic, It is precisely because of the need to preserve our unity that we are urged to stay away from Covenant breakers. Their intent is to destroy that unity and if given the opportunity they woulld do so. As you probably know association with Covenant breakers is prohibited. We are *discouraged* but not forbidden to read their writings. There are some of us (myself included) who for various reasons find it necessary to acquaint ourselves with their writings but I don't try and broadcast their arguments to other believers when it is in the context of refuting their arguments. Yes, we are encouraged to search for the truth but we don't do that by associating with those deliberately trying to distort the truth. For instance, when I see someone with no real evidence or proof trying to accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of murdering the Guardian and I myself have seen the Guardian's death certificate and *know* what the autopsy findings were, I know that the person making such accusations has no regard for truthfulness. The only thing that can result from being exposed to such distortions is confusion and suspicion. Now if a believer does come across this stuff and has questions about it, I have no problem at all with addressing those questions, but I want to do so in such a way that we are not sowing the seeds of doubt. warmest, Susan 2010/1/21 Loïc ROYER l...@free.fr: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, I'm more a reader than a writer in this, as my english is more commercial than spiritual. But these last exchanges remind me a question I put myself since I am bahai : How baha'is can say they are in friendship with all believers of all one-only-God believers, but not with the nearest, called covenant-breakers? I clearly understand that the UHJ tell us not to exchange with those people, as they pretend to be the bahais, with a different organization and authority than the UHJ. Reading what they publish (despite the UHJ recommandation!), I've just been chocked by the aggressivity against bahai faith, and I never thought a second to take care about what they pretend to know better. Anyway, the modernity of our faith is based on the personal research and way. How can we make any personal way, how can we believe in the power of humanity mind and soul, if we block a part of the way? I believe we all bahais have to accept that, like all other religions, we have had a big trouble between the believers, and are now divided in 2 churches, despite we invite all believers to Unity! We all just humans, bahais make their best to try to be best humans, but the way is still very long... Let's all work for it but World is not yet a paradise! Loďc Susan Maneck a écrit : The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Stephen, I would request once again that you do not post their material here. If you have questions about their arguments you can certainly ask about it, but most Baha'is try and avoid exposure to this kind of thing as the Guardian and the House have strongly recommended. I think we should respect their choice in this regard. As far as the BUPC allowing women on their so-called House of Justice, if you read their document carefully you fill find that nearly all of their arguments were plagiarized from papers written by Tony Lee and Juan Cole. warnest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:l...@free.fr Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482341-5368...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482362-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
Re: Name of Thy Lord
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Larry, The term majmu`ih means a collection or compilation. This collection of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah that was first printed in Egypt contains the Lawh-i Tibb. This collection is online. If I'm not mistaken, it was published around 1920 or thereabouts in Egypt. Best wishes, Iskandar On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Larry Marquardt wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Sen(or anyone), Please be patient with me as I am not a scholar and am not familiar with so many wonderful Arabic texts. Regarding the Majmu`ih-yi Alvah-i Mubarakih reference on page 223 line 9, what is the connection between the Majmu`ih-yi Alvah-i Mubarakih and the Lawh-i-Tibb? Is the Majmu`ih-yi Alvah-i Mubarakih a complilation of Baha'u'llah's Writings and the Lawh-i-Tibb part of that compilation? Just trying to understand how the reference from the one is being linked to the other. Is the Majmu`ih-yi Alvah-i Mubarakih online anywhere(Arabic or English)? I found some references to it but cannot find the text itself. Please know that the four readings referenced from the Majmu`ih-yi Alvah-i Mubarakih in your previous response were immensely helpful in trying to grasp a better understanding of Baha'u'llah's instruction in the Lawh-i-Tibb. Thank you so much for your detailed response and for the prayers from so many sources. I wish Mahmud's Diary was online. What a wonderful book. Warm regards, Larry __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-454591-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Protocol?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear David: Have you asked the Universal House of Justice? Have you received any private/personal information about Sen (or about anyone else) that was not readily available publicly? You might want to consider asking the House about privacy issues before speculating. Best regards, Iskandar On Sun, 14 Jun 2009, David Friedman wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm interested in what exactly the House of Justice considers private information. Recently the subject of Sen being disenrolled came up, and Susan suggested someone to write to the House if they wanted clarification about the reasons. This must mean that the House would be willing to share the information. This surprises me, as I would have thought the House would regard that as private. Does being disenrolled take away the right to privacy? Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-440905-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Iranian Authorities Destroy Sufi Holy Site In Isfahan
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Let me add that while Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians have expressly and specifically been protected minorities in the Constitution of Iran, the Baha'is, unfortunately, have absolutely no such protection under the law (whatever it means in Iran) in that land. I'd say that's a significant distinction. Good wishes, Iskandar On Sun, 8 Mar 2009, Ahang Rabbani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Feb 19, Iran Press Watch reprinted the same story you cite: http://www.iranpresswatch.org/2009/02/destroy-sufi-site-isfahan/ In fact, the Baha'is are deeply concerned about the plight of all minorities in Iran. On Iran Press Watch, we have published stories about the abuse of women, Christians, Sufis, Sunnis, Kurds, etc, at the hand of brutal, vicious and deeply ignorant ruling clerics. So the issue is most decidedly not Muslim vs. Baha'is, but rather repressive mullahs vs everybody else. On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv A friend of mine sent me this link a few weeks ago and it is arguably off-topic. But I think it definitely does add something to some of the recent discussions. http://www.rferl.org/content/Iranian_Authorities_Destroy_Holy_Sufi_Site_In_Isfahan/1495342.html So yes, you should defnitely look at and discuss what the Iranian government has been doing to Bahais, but even Muslims aren't necessarily safe from the abuses of the Iranian regime. And while you could try to frame the issue as a Muslim vs. Bahai thing, perhaps there is some wisdom in thinking about the issue in a different sort of way? -Gilbertol -- Ahang Rabbani, PhD http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/ http://iranpresswatch.org/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-421581-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, the articles are dispassionate and analytical with facts and data, etc. They are not meant to just arouse emotions. Not at all. And soon, the English translations will appear anyhow. You say that the trial of Baha'is in Iran has been more or less normal. There has not been any trial. There have been just baseless charges and unfounded, unsubstantiated accusations and allegations. No Baha'i has ever been given any opportunity to defend themselves in public in Iran in any shape, manner, or form. Never. What on earth are you talking about? We are not talking about a person (Baha'i or not) who gets taken to court for writing bad checks, etc. The seven Baha'is have been detained since May 2008 (one of them since March 2008) and publicly accused of espionage and treason, etc., but no formal legal proceedings has occurred yet. And we are not talking about the miscarriage of justice at GTMO and Abu-Ghraib, etc. Regards, Iskandar On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear dr.s.maneck dear mr.iskandar Hai, I saw the article in goftman blog.I usually follow the texts of ipw of dr.ahang rabbani too.fyi, the article are more than 70% journalistic.they just arouse the emotions n feelings of the youth.but at the same time it shows the complexities of legal issues that requires wisdom n reasoning, referring to the articles of code,etc.I hope you cud realize what I mean. here I add just fr yr info tt in Iran,according to legal procedure, during the time of investigations,the accused persons are not allowed to contact their solicitors.theymay also be kept detained if the judge n questioner prefer it.I know ,fm our NDFs,that YARAN hv hd regular meetings with their families.they hv good spirits. what do you think about the behavior of the U.S. STAFF toward the accused people in prisons Abu Ghorayb[baghdad],Guantanamo,etc? what about the Iranian diplomats arrested in Arbil of Iraq? they are just examples to remind you of realities out of the books and declarations. Apart from the above points,as I told in the previous posts the trial procedure for the Bahai friends has been more or less normal in the past, and we pray fr the future trial. I hope you could realize my point of view that according to the teaching of our faith we should not make ,even the slightest,opposition toward our government,especially here in Iran.I am sure that 100s of blog/sites who are attacking the Iranian government,are making bad mistakes in this regard .I wish that they are not Troy Horses for the enemies n opponents of our country. furthermore,I had requested you to quote or refer to BAHAULLAL's word-as you claimed- abt the limitation of teaching in israel.other discussed points are clear. warmest regards/Rohani --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 3:05 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a fairly longish article about the arrests and detentions without a charge, without any arraignment or trial of any sort. It also examines the current atomsphere of paranoia about espionage in Iran and the government's exploitation of that fear to suppress any and all dissents. The article explores some articles of the Iranian consitution, etc., etc., and it documents the anti-Baha'i campaign that has been going on for quite some time and gaining more momentum and crescendo. Perhaps Shahram himself should like to translate it. Regards, Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, For the benefit of list members who don't read Persian, would you summarize this website? warmest, Susan On 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv For Shahram Rouhani http://www.goftman-iran.info/content/view/1192/10/ in Persian. Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418967-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, please note that the author of this article is not a Baha'i and was never a Baha'i. He is an intellectual writer and historian http://www.negah32.info/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=996Itemid=21 Warmest regards, Iskandar On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear dr.s.maneck dear mr.iskandar Hai, I saw the article in goftman blog.I usually follow the texts of ipw of dr.ahang rabbani too.fyi, the article are more than 70% journalistic.they just arouse the emotions n feelings of the youth.but at the same time it shows the complexities of legal issues that requires wisdom n reasoning, referring to the articles of code,etc.I hope you cud realize what I mean. here I add just fr yr info tt in Iran,according to legal procedure, during the time of investigations,the accused persons are not allowed to contact their solicitors.theymay also be kept detained if the judge n questioner prefer it.I know ,fm our NDFs,that YARAN hv hd regular meetings with their families.they hv good spirits. what do you think about the behavior of the U.S. STAFF toward the accused people in prisons Abu Ghorayb[baghdad],Guantanamo,etc? what about the Iranian diplomats arrested in Arbil of Iraq? they are just examples to remind you of realities out of the books and declarations. Apart from the above points,as I told in the previous posts the trial procedure for the Bahai friends has been more or less normal in the past, and we pray fr the future trial. I hope you could realize my point of view that according to the teaching of our faith we should not make ,even the slightest,opposition toward our government,especially here in Iran.I am sure that 100s of blog/sites who are attacking the Iranian government,are making bad mistakes in this regard .I wish that they are not Troy Horses for the enemies n opponents of our country. furthermore,I had requested you to quote or refer to BAHAULLAL's word-as you claimed- abt the limitation of teaching in israel.other discussed points are clear. warmest regards/Rohani --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 3:05 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a fairly longish article about the arrests and detentions without a charge, without any arraignment or trial of any sort. It also examines the current atomsphere of paranoia about espionage in Iran and the government's exploitation of that fear to suppress any and all dissents. The article explores some articles of the Iranian consitution, etc., etc., and it documents the anti-Baha'i campaign that has been going on for quite some time and gaining more momentum and crescendo. Perhaps Shahram himself should like to translate it. Regards, Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, For the benefit of list members who don't read Persian, would you summarize this website? warmest, Susan On 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv For Shahram Rouhani http://www.goftman-iran.info/content/view/1192/10/ in Persian. Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-419024-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv First of all, this list is not moderated at all. So, whatever you post, it goes through. Nobody censors anything. Second, please stop shouting. Writing in all capital letters is yelling and shouting. But, perhaps, the Ministry of Intelligence (vezAArat-e ettelAA`AAt) didn't train you in these fine points of netiquette. This list is open to all, including non-Baha'is like yourself. Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv DEAR DR.S.MANECK, TKS YR REPLY.I WISH U HD LET MY POST APPEARED IN THE SITE,SO THAT I CUD FEEL FREE ATMOSPHERE HERE.NOW THE READER THINKS THAT U R SELECTING OR CENSURING THE TEXTS,N IT IS NOT INTERESTING FR AN ACADEMIC SITE. I PERSONALLY RESPECT YOU,N TRY TO READ YR LITERATURE AND COMMENTS.BUT DO U MEAN THAT YOU CAN DECIDE OR LET WHO IS A BAHAI OR NOT? I DO NOT NEED TO TELL YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TT I AM A BAHAI BY MY PARENTS.THE FLOWER HS ITS SMELL,AND FREE SEARCH IS OUR TEACHING.WE R NOT TEACHERS FR OTHERS.DO U SEE WHAT I MEAN? IF WE CUD NOT TOLERATE THE LEAST CRITICISM,THEN HOW CAN WE EXPECT OTHERS,WHO CONSIDER US AS THEIR ENEMIES,TO LET US TO DENY THEIR BASIC THOUGHTS? FYI,I HV STUDIED LAW,AND INT'L LAW.IF U HD THE SAME BACKGROUND,IT WUD HV BEEN EASY FR U TO UNDERSTAND TT THE RULE MADE BY GENERAL ATTORNEY IN IRAN IS SENSE AND COMPETENT.IT IS NONSENSE TO NEGLECT IT BY APPLICATION THE WORDS OF BANI SADR.EVEN IN THIS VERY CLEAR CASE I IGNORE THE RULE OF A COMPETENT AUTHORITY OF IRAN BY APPLICATION TO A COMMENT OF AN OPPONENT OF THE IRAN GOVERNMENT. IN MY LAST POST I SAID TT THE BAHAI AUTHORITIES TRY TO WALK ON THE WAYS OF THE OPPONENTS OF IRAN GOVERNMENT,NOT THOSE IN WAR WITH IRAN. DEAR DR,MANECK, YOU HV SAID TT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT,BUT U ARE AGAINST THE GENOCIDE.BUT I HV NOT SEEN EVEN A WORD,A PRAY,... FM YOU ABT THE GAZA PEOPLE,OR THE GENOCIDE IN ROWANDA,SOMALI,ETC. IF WE ACCEPT TT 200 BAHAIS HV BEEN KILLED IN IRAN[AND IT IS TOO MUCH,AND A PITY].WITH REGARDS TO THE 300-350 000 POPULATION OF THE IRAN BAHAI COMMUNITY IT IS HALF A PERCENT.THOSE PEOPLE HV BEEN TRIALED,THEY HV GIVEN THEIR DEFENDS...DURING 30 YEARS.THEY HV HD OPPORTUNITY TO ASK FORGIVENESS FM COURTS,...BUT IN GAZA,IN LEBANON,IN ROWANDA,THOUSANDS,AND THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE KILLED OUT OF THEIR DECISION TO INTERFERE THE WAR.I BELIEVE THAT HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY OF THE IRANIAN BAHAI MARTYRS HV BEEN TEENAGE GIRLS? THEN YOU WL SEE THAT IT IS A BITTER JOKE TO CALL IT A GENOCIDE. RE PROHIBITION OF TEACHING IN THE SACRED LAND CAN YOU QUOTE THE TEXT AND/OR REFERENCE OF BAHAULLAH ?BECAUSE AT THE TIME OF BAHAULLAH THERE WAS NOT THE COUNTRY OF ISRAEL.BUT IN THE LETTER OF UHJ IT IS REFERRED TO THE RESIDENTS, AND NATIONALS OF ISRAEL AND ITS AIR BORDER... WARMEST GREETINGS/ROHANI --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: shahramroh...@yahoo.com Cc: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 5:52 PM IT SEEMS THAT YR WORDS ARE FULL OF ANGER TOWARD THE IRAN STATE AND THE BAHAIS LIKE ME WHO TRY TO FIND A MIDDLE WAY TO GET OUT OF THE CURRENT CRISIS,ACCORDING TO THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF FAITH. Dear Shahram, Are you trying to tell us you are a Baha'i? Do you believe that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this Age? My anger is not towards the Iranian State it is towards anyone who tries to justify genocide. -I KNOW THAT THE LIMITATION OF TEACHING BAHAI TO THE ISRAEALITES AND IN ISRAEL WAS HELD AFTER THE MEETING BETWEEN THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GUARDIAN AND THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL.DO U WANT TO IGNORE IT? I've not seen any evidence of this. If you have some, please feel free to post it here. As I indicated the decision not to teach the Faith in Palestine was made by Baha'u'llah, not Shoghi Effendi and proceeds the establishment of the State of Israel. ACCORDING TO IRAN CONSTITUTION PEOPLE ARE FREE TO HAVE ANY RELIGION. BUT THEY ARE NOT FREE TO DISCUSS ABOUT THEIR RELIGIONS Then how about telling us which Baha'i community you belong to since if what you say is true, you needn't worry that this will put you in any danger. But I would like to see specifically where Iranian law prohibits people from discussing their religion. I know this is what Hojjatol-Islam Dur-Najafabadi is saying but I would like to see the actual law which says people are not free to discuss their religion. As Abolhassan Banisadr, Iran's first president, says, When having any belief is free, how can expressing it be prohibited by law? SPECIALLY IN UNIVERSITIES,SCHOOLS,GOVERNMENTAL/PUBLIC PLACES,AS IT WILL CAUSE DISORDER IN THE DAILY AFFAIRS First off, Baha'is are not even allowed to *attend* universities in Iran, whether they discuss their religion there or not. Not only that, but they are prohibited from holding government jobs, so how does
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv For Shahram Rouhani http://www.goftman-iran.info/content/view/1192/10/ in Persian. Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418803-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a fairly longish article about the arrests and detentions without a charge, without any arraignment or trial of any sort. It also examines the current atomsphere of paranoia about espionage in Iran and the government's exploitation of that fear to suppress any and all dissents. The article explores some articles of the Iranian consitution, etc., etc., and it documents the anti-Baha'i campaign that has been going on for quite some time and gaining more momentum and crescendo. Perhaps Shahram himself should like to translate it. Regards, Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, For the benefit of list members who don't read Persian, would you summarize this website? warmest, Susan On 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv For Shahram Rouhani http://www.goftman-iran.info/content/view/1192/10/ in Persian. Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418823-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, that's very true. http://www.iranpresswatch.org/?s=we+are+ashamedsearchsubmit=Search http://www.iranpresswatch.org/page/2/?s=we+are+ashamedsearchsubmit=Search Much love, Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Ahang Rabbani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I prefer to give references to Iran Press Watch, since IPW was so central to this story. Just do s search on we are ashamed on our site and you'll find a bunch of relevant stories. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.eduwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://www.we-are-ashamed.com/ was first started by 42 non-Baha'i Iranians on February 3rd 2009. Since then, almost 300 people have signed it. It's now available in eleven other languages. The signatories are writers, journalists, political activists, human rights activists, intellectuals, university professors, etc. The original Persian language open letter is here: http://www.we-are-ashamed.com/pages/languages/fars6cc.php Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418885-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Unity of nations
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And for decade it's daheh and for millennium it's hezAAreh. On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, HI the other Persian word for century is sadeh. Yours/Rohani --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Re: Unity of nations To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:52 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 8 Feb 2009 at 8:54, Benjamin La Framboise wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sorry...I had question I forgot to ask: What is the term/phrase/etc. in Arabic or Persian that means 100-year span of time? Does one exist? Did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha use this term/phrase, ever? Sure: they can just say 100 years (Will and Testament p 20) or 700 years (Iqan page 9). The Persian is sad (100) saal (year). (Persian doesn't use a plural noun in this situation). Using another word for 'year', in the Iqan page 9, for over a hundred years is sad sanah. Similarly, there is no specific term for millenium; but 'one thousand years (hezaar saal) is used often. I agree that it is much clearer when we look at the persian terms translated as 'century' (qarn and `asr) and see how Shoghi Effendi translates them in other places. But not everyone can read the script and work out the sentences, to really follow that argument Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn *** Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-415700-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-415748-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-416022-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: OJBS - get em quick before they're gone
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Permanent place is here: http://bahaistudies.net/onlinejournal/OJBS_Volume_1.pdf almost 5.3 MegaBytes. On Mon, 19 Jan 2009, Sen Sonja wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 18 Jan 2009 at 14:52, Ursus Maximus wrote: Why? I'm not up on the details, but the temporary URL I gave has now been replaced with something more permanent: google on online journal bahai pdf archive or go to http://oj.bahaistudies.net/ and there's the whole content of the first edition, in a reasonably permanent place. It was put up there in the course of today. It remains to be seen whether it will be possible to add more material, but at least the archive has found a new home. Check out the 4 tablets for Maryam: it includes poems by Maryam, translations of Baha'u'llah's tablets to her and his Tablet of Visitation for her, and commentaries and background information - really moving and motivating material Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-411177-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: PowerPoint warning
Well, I received it from a friend who doesn't live in the West; but I did not run any virus check on it. So far, it hasn't done any harm to my machines. Susan, I converted it to PDF and upoloaded it to esnips.com Good wishes, Iskandar On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Susan Maneck wrote: It might be Iskandar's presentation, in which case it is safe. But I didn't see any way of opening the file anyhow. On 1/24/08, Skygram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear friends, Several years ago I received a similar PowerPoint presentation on the Faith from a friend serving in the holy land. It held a very bad Trojan that totally destroyed my computer's motherboard. At that time it was discovered to originate in Serbia. The IT people in the holy land denied that it originated with them. However a Trojan of this kind are not easily discovered by any existing Anti-virus programs that I am aware of, even now at this late date. And this PPS file did in fact pass through their systems and it also passed through the Israeli government systems as well. This particular Trojan depends upon a program like PowerPoint to execute itself. So I would strongly warn my fellow listers about receiving and opening files of this type. I am not saying that this current PPS file from Lara is a bad one. But all of you using IBM-PC type computers should think twice before opening it. If you do open it and it is a dangerous file. It will probably open up looking very normal and give you a lovely presentation that would only encourage you to send it on to other friends on the Internet, all the while it will begin working in the background of your computer to inflict it's damage. And this damage will not make itself known to you until much later when you won't directly associate it with the PowerPoint presentation that you opened today. I am hoping that this list doesn't allow file attachments of this type. Good luck, Bill By the way, I have spent the better part of 15 years working in computer security in one form or another and even I have been nailed by these things. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: PowerPoint warning
Dear Bill: How do I check the size of the original file? The Power Point file that I have (that was sent to me) is about 5.89 MegaBytes. Can you check the file that I've uploaded to eSnips.com ? It's here: http://www.esnips.com/doc/a88dd8c8-2a6c-481a-ba3c-840621a94fad/Bahaullah My Adobe acrobat reader is version 8.1.1, updated today. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Skygram wrote: Dear Iskandar, One way to check is to determine the size of the original file to see if there has been any change. My understanding is that Trojan's can piggyback upon the original PPS file. In some instances the Trojans can already exist on the victim's computer and when a PPS file is activated, the worm or Trojan is then executed. That is the nature of the word Trojan. It means that the victim allowed the Trojan into his or her own computer. There is currently a security problem with Adobe Acrobat. There is a vulnerability that allows hackers to again mess with your computer. So I suggest updating your Acrobat Reader. Once upon a time a PDF file meant something secure. Unfortunately this is no longer accurate. Again I underline, find me any anti-virus program that can identify this type of Malware and I will be recommending it at every opportunity. A few programs advertise that they do. Usually they can only find and cure a handful and there are many hundreds of variants of this stuff out there. In other words, these software companies are essentially taking advantage of their client's ignorance of the real issues. Bill Well, I received it from a friend who doesn't live in the West; but I did not run any virus check on it. So far, it hasn't done any harm to my machines. Susan, I converted it to PDF and upoloaded it to esnips.com Good wishes, Iskandar On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Susan Maneck wrote: The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: PowerPoint warning
On this Windows Vista laptop, the file size is 6,179,840 bytes and it says that the file size on disk is 6,180,864 bytes but I have no way of knowing what the original file size was on my friend's computer and I don't know what machine and what OS he has. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Skygram wrote: Dear Iskandar, So far your file on my Mac is 5.89mb and 5.9mb and 6.0mb. This is normal. Methods vary as to how a file size is calculated. There are again a variety of technical reasons for this. However when you have access to the original file you have the best way of determining if there is any significant size change. That is the simplest method. There are other systems of doing this on Linux for example, only I cannot remember what it is called. I work in two languages, French and English and they have their own technical terms and I am often flummoxed when attempting to explain things. :-) Last week my home Mac was hacked. I am still unsure how it came about from a technical sense. However I am pretty sure that it was a PDF file that I downloaded from a peer-to-peer program. So I deserve what I get. I should have known better. Nevertheless my backup system is reliable and I have contained the problem. I am still trying to understand what it was intended to do. There are no guarantees with any operating system. However there are ways to limit your vulnerability. I recommend Mac's OS-X and Linux. They would cut your chances of getting malware by 90 to 95%. Anti-virus programs can help but only to a very limited degree. There are many ways to keep the predators from your door even with your existing computers. However in my experience most people don't take the time to bother to do anything about it even when they are offered good advice. :-) Bill The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Dear Ron: On Mon, 31 Dec 2007, Ursus Maximus wrote: 3. Not only does the Aqdas not make the point about equality of the sexes, but also instead Women are specifically singled out as being treated inferior to men in more than one instance. Women are given less inheritance, (and if that's of no importance given our requirement to make a will, why does this sexually unequal inheritance subject get so much space in our Most Holy Book?), women are exempt from the pilgrimage, and from the requirement to do the obligatory prayers when they are enfeebled due to their courses (no wonder we can't trust them to be on the UHOJ, since they are so enfeebled when menstruating). - Where is enfeebled mentioned as a reason? I remind myself that Divine Revelation is not supposed to read like a Ph.D dissertation, or a college textbook or a scientficic mnograph, etc. with chapters and index, and footnotes and bibliography, and foreword and preface and epilogue and prologue, and acknowledgements, etc., etc. It's a unique and spontaneous outpouring of Divine Will, ineffebale, incontaibale in human words, etc., etc. Just my thoughts. Good wishes on the eve of January 1st 2008 for a happy and healthy 2008 for you and and for all, Iskandar The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: You never really know: transsexual or gay?
If one party to a marriage has gender assignment surgery some time later, after the marriage, I'd think that the other party might in all likelihood want to get a divorce. I don't think that the other party will want to stay in that marriage. Unless there was sort of secret collusion or agreement before the marraige. In which case it was a faked marriage, a sham marriage. Good wishes, Iskandar The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
