Re: Rev. 11:3
Dear Ahang, You commented: Again, this was in fulfilment of Qur'anic prophecy about the two liars (the Bab and Quddus) and the third one (Baha'u'llah). Could you please provide chapter and verse in the Quran ? Gratefully, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
The reference is to the Sura 36= Heart of the Qur'an 36:13 am sending this from my work during a break hope you can read it khazeh.fananapazir Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold!, there came apostles to it. And set out to them an example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it. Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent came unto them; Waidrib lahum mathalan as-haba alqaryati ith jaaha almursaloona 36:14 When We (first) sent to them two apostles, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you. When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened (them) with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you. When We sent unto them twain, and they denied them both, so We reinforced them with a third, and they said: Lo! we have been sent unto you. Ith arsalna ilayhimu ithnayni fakaththaboohuma faAAazzazna bithalithin faqaloo inna ilaykum mursaloona 36:15 The (people) said: Ye are only men like ourselves; and (God) Most Gracious sends no sort of revelation: ye do nothing but lie. They said: You are naught but mortals like ourselves, nor has the Beneficent God revealed anything; you only lie. They said: Ye are but mortals like unto us. The Beneficent hath naught revealed. Ye do but lie! Qaloo ma antum illa basharun mithluna wama anzala alrrahmanu min shay-in in antum illa takthiboona Quoting Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Ahang, You commented: Again, this was in fulfilment of Qur'anic prophecy about the two liars (the Bab and Quddus) and the third one (Baha'u'llah). Could you please provide chapter and verse in the Quran ? Gratefully, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. Can you please give examples of this? Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, "not even Christ". Can you please give examples of this, too? I am not catching how saying that he suffered more than Christ is equivalent to Baha'u'llah having "linked Quddus with Christ". Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. Can you state wherethe Writings denote Quddus as a Manifestation? I am not doubting youI just must have read through such quotes without catching that point. And do the Writings state such "Manifestationhood" as being comparable to that of the Bab, Christ, Baha'u'llah, etc? James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Folks, I'm not about to start a discussion on the station of Quddus and the concept of Manifestionhood in the Babi Faith (which is drastically different than the same notion in the Baha'i Faith). These things have been discussed previously on internet, where I've contributed extensively. I suggest interested folks doing some digging of their own and find the relevant archives to read through. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as E-Contract Intended, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Quddus as Mihdi and Christ
Dear Ahang, I agree with this, but would state it slightly differently. Nabil was echoing and in fact down-playing Babi sentiments. Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. For the Babis that was a critical point since in Shi'a eschatology, the Mihdi had to appear with the Christ. Therefore the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it, which Quddus fulfilled. I really know nothing about this matter apart from a vague idea of how Nabil represents things--something I'm long overdue to revisit. But I'm wondering if how you've presented this is how it is represented in Baha'i scripture or if this is just suggested in sources about Quddus? Is this scriptural: the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it? That is, 1) Did the Bab ever directly claim to be the Mihdi? 2) Was that claim, if made, represented by the Bab or Baha'u'llah as incomplete by itself? 3) Did the Bab assert that the return of Christ had to accompany Him or is this just assumed from traditions and verses such as and the Prophets were brought up (Qur'an 39:68/DB 41)? Also, how does Nabil differ from Quddus' own self-representation? Does Quddus represent himself as the Mihdi? Sorry if you've answered all these questions before. My memory isn't too good. It seems from Nabil that Quddus fulfills both positions, Mihdi and Christ's return. That is, the tradition recorded by Bukhari regarding the Mihdi is associated with Quddus: 'Should your eyes behold the Black Standards proceeding from Khurasan, hasten ye towards them, even though ye should have to crawl over the snow, inasmuch as they proclaim the advent of the promised Mihdi, the Vicegerent of God.' That standard was unfurled at the command of the Bab, *in the name of Quddus*, and by the hands of Mulla Husayn. (DB 351) This point is further asserted in this text: In this manner they reached the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsi. The first words that fell from the lips of Quddus after he had dismounted and leaned against the shrine were the following: 'The Baqiyyatullah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.' By this utterance was fulfilled the prophecy of Muhammad as recorded in the following tradition: 'And when the Mihdi is made manifest, He shall lean His back against the Ka'bih and shall address to the three hundred and thirteen followers who will have grouped around Him, these words: The Baqiyyatu'llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.' (DB 352-3) As Nabil presents it, the Bab never directly claims to be the Mihdi, only Quddus, who is likewise represented as Christ, though not as a direct echatological claim, as is the references to the Mihdi. It seems that the Bab is represented as the Mihdi only insofar as when Quddus is represented as the Mihdi, and we are led to understand that Quddus is in fact the light of the Bab after the Bab was in captivity. Nabil seems to use Qur'an 39:68, fashioned in a sermon by Siyyid Kazim, as a thesis for much in the following narrative. The christ-like representation of Quddus conforms to this early expectation. In the NT there is a progression on some eschatological matters, such as the Harrowing of Hell as eschatological fulfillment, with early texts silent or even suggesting it hadn't occurred and latter texts attributed to Paul and Peter affirming it. So perhaps something similar is occuring here. The Bab is silent, while Quddus is addressing particular expectations and only a limited picture of this is coming through in Nabil's narrative. Towards this, for instance, Quddus named his sister Maryam (Mary) to evoke that Christian connection and he modeled his life after the Christ (wearing the same type of clothing, etc). Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, not even Christ. Nabil mentions Quddus' unconventional dress (DB 145), but how do we know how Jesus dressed and if Quddus intended his clothes to represent those of Jesus? In saying that Quddus suffered more than Christ, Baha'u'llah would be representing him as someone unlike Christ. But perhaps that's a peculiarly Eastern way of representing likeness. But given Nabil's narrative methodology, I would not be surprised by some linkage with Baha'u'llah's writings. The station of Quddus is really somewhat different from Ali's. Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. That is, while he did not bring about a new Shari'a, and reflected the light of the Bab, he ranked as a Manifestation. A new Shari'a is not really a requirement of a Manifestation, but rather a type of Manifestation. But the connection with the Book of Revelation isn't really based on either being Manifestations, apart from
Re: Rev. 11:3
I'm not about to start a discussion on the station of Quddus and the concept of Manifestionhood in the Babi Faith (which is drastically different than the same notion in the Baha'i Faith).These things have been discussed previously on internet, where I've contributed extensively. I suggest interested folks doing some digging of their own and find the relevant archives to read through. Does this mean that anyone who comes on the list in the future will have no access to the information? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Dear James maybe if you look at this site you will find some information it is in the Most Great website of Jonah Winters http://bahai-library.com/uhj/letters.quddus.dawnbreakers.html Many thanks! I appreciate your spirit of helpfulness. James You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
