Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)

[Barmak Kusha]

But Gilberto, 

As Baha'is, we recognize the Firm Handle ("urvat'ul vuthgha") of the Word of God, "the unerring balance." This is not something that can be "solved" outside of that, is it? If that were the case, then why would Baha'u'llah establish unerring proofs? Or am I looking at this from a position of "faith and not reason," again?

BarmakGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 5/6/05, Sandra Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto:  Just in general, it seems very hard to get around the issue. Anytime you take a religious group and you want to define it, by definition that means setting limits as to who is in, and who is out. And unless you simply accept everyone who self-identifies, it seems like you would invariably (even if only implicitly) set up some criteria and draw the line in a way which excludes at least somebody from the group.  Dear Gilberto, I would agree with you, that there are limitations placed on "membership" - similar restrictions apply if you are buying a condo or joining a golf club. Membership implies a willingness to work within a prescribed framework. Agree also, that there are individu!
 als who
 self-identify with a particular belief or group. I was a self-identified Baha'i for a period of several months before I was willing/confident enough to make a committment to the organizational framework. It's the choice of the individual to be included or not.In the case of a club, there are often very specific and concreteindicators which clearly identify you as a member (e.g. they don'tcall security when you are on the premises for instance).But in the case of belief systems things are less clear. For example,Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons say they are Christian but they haveSEVERAL beliefs which go against at least some people's definitions ofChristianity. So if you are part of a group with millions of membersbut your claim to a particular identity might not be recognized, whatdoes that mean? Whose definition do you follow?So for example, I realize and appreciate (really I do) that from
 yourperspective the issue of who is or isn't Bahai is rather clear. Butthere are also other people claiming to be Bahai who don't necessarilymeet your criteria. So implicitly or explicitly, you are choosing forthem (over their objections) that they are not Bahai.PeaceGIlberto__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew
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Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)

[Sandra Chamberlain]

Gilberto,  you wrote:
 So for example, I realize and appreciate (really I do) that 
from your perspective the issue of who is or isn't Bahai is 
rather clear. But there are also other people claiming to be 
Bahai who don't necessarily
meet your criteria. So implicitly or explicitly, you are 
choosing for them (over their objections) that they are not 
Bahai. 

Well, not exactly...
Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a 
Bahá'í!' He will be known by his deeds. There are no secrets 
among Bahá'ís; a Bahá'í does not hide anything. 
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 98)

This is the botom line.
lovingly,  Sandra 

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RE: The Hands withholding

[Vaughn Sheline]

-Original Message-
From: Brent Poirier
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:35 AM

I am interested, not in how God withholds gifts, but in how you friends see
that the Hands of the Cause have withheld.


Hi Brent,

I think the implications of withheld is similar to the passages below.

Best wishes,
--- Vaughn


Afterward it is said: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in
the days of their prophecy,[1] meaning that in that cycle they would be
like kings. The law and teachings of Muhammad, and the explanations and
commentaries of Ali, are a heavenly bounty; if they wish to give this
bounty, they have power to do so. If they do not wish it, the rain will not
fall: in this connection rain stands for bounty.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 50)

THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like
unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the
people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they
heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

Thus hath Sadiq, son of Muhammad, spoken: God verily will test them and
sift them.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255)





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RE: The Hands withholding

[Sandra Chamberlain]

Dear Brent,
H, you mentioned looking at a particular section in 
context.  My current reference is the document on Ocean - I've 
misplaced the book.  Is there something I've missed that 
delineates sections of the Surih of the Temple?

Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the *Temple of God* amongst 
men. He, in truth, hath offered up His life as a ransom for 
the redemption of the world. He, verily, is the All-Bountiful, 
the Gracious, the Most High. If any differences arise amongst 
you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the 
faults of one another for My name's sake and as a token of 
your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah pg. 315)

Baha'u'llah is the Temple; The Living Temple, the Eyes, the 
Ears, the Tongue.

I might well be mistaken in my understanding of this Tablet 
... Having conceded that, to my mind, the entire Tablet seems 
to be the Summons of God addressing The Temple, Baha'u'llah 
and [then, through Him] those who will become His followers. 
It flows like dialogue between The Two through the 
intercession of the Maiden [Holy Spirit].

While I would agree that the term hands as defined in this 
Tablet, as well as other passages of the Sacred Writings, 
correllates with the duties of those honored men and women of 
the Institution, I would disagree that it was, in fact, a 
direct reference to the future Institution.  I hear the Surih 
of the Temple as broader and more encompassing -an assurance 
of the charaterics and testament to the strengths of those who 
will respond to Baha'u'llah's Divine Message -an 
encouragement if you will.

The day is approaching when God will have, by an act of His 
Will, raised up *a race of men* the nature of which is 
inscrutable to all save God, the All-Powerful, the 
Self-Subsisting. He shall purify them from the defilement of 
idle fancies and corrupt desires, shall lift them up to the 
heights of holiness, and shall cause them to manifest the 
signs of His sovereignty and might upon earth. Thus hath it 
been ordained by God, the All-Glorious, the All-Loving. 
(Summons to the Lord of Hosts pg.5)

The Pen of the Most High hath decreed and imposed upon every 
one the obligation to teach this Cause God will, no doubt, 
inspire whosoever detacheth himself from all else but Him, and 
will cause the pure waters of wisdom and utterance to gush out 
and flow copiously from his heart. Verily, thy Lord, the 
All-Merciful, is powerful to do as He willeth, and ordaineth 
whatsoever He pleaseth. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the 
Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 3)

Baha'u'llah, it seems, confirms the correlation by bestowing 
the distinction of Hand on worthy individuals -following 
this example, Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, did as well.

With regard to the capitalization of Hand, in Shoghi Effendi's 
translation, I'm more inclined to think he chose to do so 
because the reference was to the hands of the 
Divine -figuratively speaking...

Erelong shall God draw forth, out of the bosom of power, the 
hands of ascendancy and might,
and shall raise up a people who will arise to win victory for 
this Youth and who will purge
mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. 
(Summons to the Lord of Hosts p.19)

CXXXI. The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to 
remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy 
have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, 
God's perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to 
Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never 
rival. *He it is Who from everlasting hath been established 
upon the seat of ascendancy and might*, He from Whose lips 
have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole 
of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them. 
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 
286)

No sooner had that eternal Beauty revealed Himself in Shiraz, 
in the year sixty, and rent asunder the veil of concealment, 
than *the signs of the ascendancy, the might*, the 
sovereignty, and power, emanating from that Essence of 
Essences and Sea of Seas, were manifest in every land. 
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 234)

Send down upon them, therefore, O my Lord, that which will 
unmistakably reveal unto them the fury of Thy wrath and *the 
ascendancy of Thy power*, and will enable them to recognize 
*the weight of Thy might* and the greatness of Thy strength. 
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 141)

Help them through Thy strengthening grace, I beseech Thee, O 
my God, to suffer patiently in their love for Thee, and unveil 
to their eyes what Thou hast decreed for them behind the 
Tabernacle of Thine unfailing protection, so that they may 
rush forward to meet what is preordained for them in Thy path, 
and may vie in hasting after tribulation in their love towards 
Thee. And if not, do Thou, then, *reveal the standards of 
Thine ascendancy*, and make them to be 

RE: The Hands withholding

[Brent Poirier]

Vaughn, super job of locating other references to withholding.  Thank you, 
that's right on target and what I was looking for.

Sandra, I quite agree that in this Tablet the Manifestation is addressing His 
own eyes, heart, ears and hands.  But then, I believe He transitions into both 
viewing the Hands of the Cause as His own hands; or alternatively says that He 
will raise up the Hands of the Cause from His own Hands.

In this passage He says just that, and that these Hands -- and from the term 
these souls He may well mean people -- will demonstrate the divine attributes 
of strength, might and ascendancy:

Gather then Thy servants beneath Thy shade that shadoweth all mankind. Stretch 
forth the hand of bounty over all creation, and the fingers of bestowal over 
all existence. This, verily, is that which beseemeth Thee, though the people 
understand it not. Whosoever turneth his face towards Thee doeth so by Thy 
grace, and as to him who turneth away, Thy Lord, in truth, is independent of 
all created things. Unto this bear witness His true and devoted servants.

Erelong shall God raise up, through Thee, those with hands of indomitable 
strength and arms of invincible might, who will come forth from behind the 
veils, will render the All-Merciful victorious amongst the peoples of the 
world, and will raise so mighty a cry as to cause all hearts to tremble with 
fear. Thus hath it been decreed in a Written Tablet. Such shall be the 
ascendancy which these souls will evince that consternation and dismay will 
seize all the dwellers of the earth.
(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 22, sections 1.40-1.41))

I note that in the article about the Hands of the Faith written by Paul Haney 
for Baha'i World Vol. XIII, (p. 333) he begins by quoting this same passage 
with his own view that it is a significant reference to the Institution of the 
Hands.

I may well be wrong in my views.  But it seems to me that the loftiness of the 
Institution of the Hands is not well grasped, and I'm trying to understand it 
better.

With thanks and best wishes
Brent
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The spiritual process of drawing proofs from the objections

[Brent Poirier]

Should you acquaint yourself with the indignities heaped upon the Prophets of 
God, and apprehend the true causes of the objections voiced by their 
oppressors, you will surely appreciate the significance of their position. 
Moreover, the more closely you observe the denials of those who have opposed 
the Manifestations of the divine attributes, the firmer will be your faith in 
the Cause of God. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 6)

Those whom the Lord hath endued with knowledge shall find, in the very 
objections raised by the unbelievers, conclusive proofs to invalidate their 
claims and vindicate the truth of this manifest Light. (Baha'u'llah, The 
Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 29)

Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and 
denials uttered by the children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may 
cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of 
heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty (Baha'u'llah, The 
Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 5)


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Re: One Common Faith

[JS]

Dear Khazeh and friends, 

I am interested in studying this text. I just skimmed through it and loved it. This is finals weeks so I cannot participate.

Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The One Common Faith has been placed on the web by Dr Fosterhttp://bahaistudies.net/bwc/onecommonfaith.htmlOne Common FaithCommissioned by the Universal House of JusticeOne Common FaithBahá'í World CentreBahá'í World Centre, HaifaCopyright © 2005 by the Universal House of JusticeCopyright under the Berne ConventionAll Rights ReservedAvailability of this etext in no way modifies the copyright status of theabove publication.This etext is freely available through anonymous internet file-sharing.If the friends are agreeable we could study it together but I think weshould be aware of contrary winds and dispositionsFirstly from a Catholic perspectivehttp://www.cin.org/docs/dominus-iesus.htmlhttp://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTMand
 from a Protestant perspective1. Pluralism -- "All major world religions lead to God and salvation."Various forms of Pluralism exist. For our purposes, though, the Pluralism weare concerned with is “Religious” or “Philosophical” Pluralism. ReligiousPluralism is the view that all major religions are equally valid and lead toGod and salvation. Thus, no one religion is inherently better or superior toany other major world religion. With Religious Pluralism, all the majorreligions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam areequal. For pluralists, there may be differences in rituals and beliefs amongthese groups, but on the most important issues, there is great similarity.Most religions, they claim, stress love for God and love for fellow humanbeings. They also point out that most religions have a form of the GoldenRule. Religious pluralists also point out that there are pious people in allthe major r!
 eligions.
 Religious Pluralism became increasingly popular in thethe latter half of the twentieth century. The leading proponent of ReligiousPluralism in the last few decades has been John Hick.2. Inclusivism -- "One religion is best but salvation is possible in otherreligions.""Inclusivism" is the position that one religion is uniquely true butsalvation is accessible to those outside of that faith. For example, aChristian inclusivist might say, "I am a Christian and I think Christianityis the most correct religion, but I also think there is saving truth inother religions like Islam and Hinduism. People of other faiths can be savedby Jesus even if they do not explicitly believe in Him." Inclusivists do notgo as far as pluralists in that inclusivists do not claim that all religionsare equal. They do believe, though, that truth and salvation can be found inother religions. Some Christian inclusivists claim that the salvation of!
 Jesus
 is unknowingly applied to adherents of other religions who live good,moral lives. Catholic and Inclusvist theologian, Karl Rahner, referred tosuch people as “anonymous Christians.” The sixteenth century reformer Ulrich Zwingli held to a form of Inclusivism.In more recent years, Karl Rahner helped popularize this perspective. TheRoman Catholic Church and several mainline Protestant denominations havealso shifted toward Inclusivism in recent decades. The Roman Catholic“Vatican II Council” of the 1960s explicitly declared that people of otherreligions could be saved. Evangelical theologian, Clark Pinnock, too, hasespoused Inclusivism. Traditionally, religions such as Hinduism and Buddhismhave been proponents of Inclusivism as well.3. Exclusivism -- "Salvation is found in only one religion.""Exclusivism" (or “Particularism”) is the view that there is only one way toGod and salvation. Thus one religion is uniquely a!
 nd
 supremely true and allother religions are false. Christianity is often viewed as an exclusivereligion because of Jesus’ statement in John 14:6: “I am the way, the truthand the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” In addition toChristianity, the religions of Islam and Judaism have traditionally beenconsidered to be exclusive religions. Those who hold to Exclusivism usuallyaffirm that other religions possess elements of truth, but these religionsdo not teach ‘the truth’ that is able to save its followers. In fact, muchof what is taught in other religions is viewed by exclusivists as false. Itshould be noted that some groups within Judaism and Christianity havedrifted away from Exclusivism in recent decades. __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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Re: One Common Faith

[JS]

When was this document written, and what does it mean that it was 'comissioned' by the House?Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The One Common Faith has been placed on the web by Dr Fosterhttp://bahaistudies.net/bwc/onecommonfaith.htmlOne Common FaithCommissioned by the Universal House of JusticeOne Common FaithBahá'í World CentreBahá'í World Centre, HaifaCopyright © 2005 by the Universal House of JusticeCopyright under the Berne ConventionAll Rights ReservedAvailability of this etext in no way modifies the copyright status of theabove publication.This etext is freely available through anonymous internet file-sharing.If the friends are agreeable we could study it together but I think weshould be aware of contrary winds and dispositionsFirstly from a Catholic perspectivehttp://www.cin.org/docs/dominus-iesus.htmlhttp://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTMand
 from a Protestant perspective1. Pluralism -- "All major world religions lead to God and salvation."Various forms of Pluralism exist. For our purposes, though, the Pluralism weare concerned with is “Religious” or “Philosophical” Pluralism. ReligiousPluralism is the view that all major religions are equally valid and lead toGod and salvation. Thus, no one religion is inherently better or superior toany other major world religion. With Religious Pluralism, all the majorreligions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam areequal. For pluralists, there may be differences in rituals and beliefs amongthese groups, but on the most important issues, there is great similarity.Most religions, they claim, stress love for God and love for fellow humanbeings. They also point out that most religions have a form of the GoldenRule. Religious pluralists also point out that there are pious people in allthe major r!
 eligions.
 Religious Pluralism became increasingly popular in thethe latter half of the twentieth century. The leading proponent of ReligiousPluralism in the last few decades has been John Hick.2. Inclusivism -- "One religion is best but salvation is possible in otherreligions.""Inclusivism" is the position that one religion is uniquely true butsalvation is accessible to those outside of that faith. For example, aChristian inclusivist might say, "I am a Christian and I think Christianityis the most correct religion, but I also think there is saving truth inother religions like Islam and Hinduism. People of other faiths can be savedby Jesus even if they do not explicitly believe in Him." Inclusivists do notgo as far as pluralists in that inclusivists do not claim that all religionsare equal. They do believe, though, that truth and salvation can be found inother religions. Some Christian inclusivists claim that the salvation of!
 Jesus
 is unknowingly applied to adherents of other religions who live good,moral lives. Catholic and Inclusvist theologian, Karl Rahner, referred tosuch people as “anonymous Christians.” The sixteenth century reformer Ulrich Zwingli held to a form of Inclusivism.In more recent years, Karl Rahner helped popularize this perspective. TheRoman Catholic Church and several mainline Protestant denominations havealso shifted toward Inclusivism in recent decades. The Roman Catholic“Vatican II Council” of the 1960s explicitly declared that people of otherreligions could be saved. Evangelical theologian, Clark Pinnock, too, hasespoused Inclusivism. Traditionally, religions such as Hinduism and Buddhismhave been proponents of Inclusivism as well.3. Exclusivism -- "Salvation is found in only one religion.""Exclusivism" (or “Particularism”) is the view that there is only one way toGod and salvation. Thus one religion is uniquely a!
 nd
 supremely true and allother religions are false. Christianity is often viewed as an exclusivereligion because of Jesus’ statement in John 14:6: “I am the way, the truthand the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” In addition toChristianity, the religions of Islam and Judaism have traditionally beenconsidered to be exclusive religions. Those who hold to Exclusivism usuallyaffirm that other religions possess elements of truth, but these religionsdo not teach ‘the truth’ that is able to save its followers. In fact, muchof what is taught in other religions is viewed by exclusivists as false. Itshould be noted that some groups within Judaism and Christianity havedrifted away from Exclusivism in recent decades. __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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RE: The Hands withholding

[Don Calkins]

At 13:35 + 5/7/05, Brent Poirier wrote:
Sandra, I quite agree that in this Tablet the Manifestation is 
addressing His own eyes, heart, ears and hands.  But then, I believe 
He transitions into both viewing the Hands of the Cause as His own 
hands; or alternatively says that He will raise up the Hands of the 
Cause from His own Hands.

In this passage He says just that, and that these Hands -- and from 
the term these souls He may well mean people -- will demonstrate 
the divine attributes of strength, might and ascendancy:

It has been my understanding that while only specific individuals are 
part of the Institution of the Hands of the Cause, that being a Hand 
of the Cause is a station that can potentially be attained by any 
individual.

Don C
--
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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the Mu'tazili school

[Mark A. Foster]

Here is an interesting site which attempts to revive the nominalist Mu'tazili 
school, which may have served as part of the historical context for 
Baha'u'llah's views:

http://www.moatazilla.org/ 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster • Portal: http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a 
universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I 


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Wilmette Institute Course

[Susan Maneck]

The Wilmette Institute will be offering a three-month e-learning course
titled The Baha'i Administrative Institutions: This Unique and Wondrous
Systemstarting May 15. The National Spiritual Assembly has asked the
friends in the United States to study the two arms of the administrative
order-the institutions of the Houses of Justice and the Counselors-in the
last year of the Five Year Plan. The Wilmette Institute course will examine
the unique nature of the Baha'i administrative order, its two arms, their
complementary and collaborative nature, and their relationship to the
individual believers. Background information about the Will and Testament of
`Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardianship will also be provided to trace the
administrative order's roots. The course is a perfect opportunity to acquire
basic knowledge about the Baha'i system of organization, information
relevant to its functioning in your local community. It will also provide
the necessary background for offering classes on the annual educational
theme in your local community; and since the theme often involves input from
the Universal House of Justice, it is clear that the institute process is
not meant to be the only educational efforts going on locally.

To read more or register, go to

http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/development

Click on courses to get a list of the 2005 e-learning courses and click on
the course title for information.

Click on sign up for class to register.

The cost is $150 for individuals and $300 for local study groups. The course
consists of seven study units, each of which involves reading and discussion
of the subject over the internet. At the end, each student completes a
project of his or her own choosing in consultatin with a mentor assigned by
the Institute.

Come join this course and develop your knowledge of the unique and wondrous
system that will be the pattern of future society.



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Re: the Mu'tazili school

[Gilberto Simpson]

Thanks. That was interesting. And at the same time really weird.

A couple of things though:

1. It was my impression (at least this is what I've read, and I've
never read anything different) that the historical Mutazilite school
basically survived within 12-er Shiism. So I'm not sure what it would
mean to revive it.

2. The Mutazites weren't necessarily more liberal or open-minded in
the ways which come to mind when we think of the term rationalism.
For example, the most frequently mentioned Inquisition-like period in
Islam is when the Mutazilites were in charge and tortured people like
Ahmad ibn Hanbal (the founder of the Hanbali school) in order to get
him to confess that the Quran wasn't the eternal word of God but
instead was created.

3. Even for Muslim I think that what I would call the intellectual
geography of Islam (if the phrase makes sense) is sometimes difficult
to scope out at first. Words like orthodox secular traditional
reformer rationalist fundamentalist etc. have certain
conotations in Western/American experience but they don't necessarily
have the same significance in Islamic history. And it would be
inappropriate to just assume that they do.


For example, the reformers are often the ones who becoming
repressive and oppose the more tolerant principles of the
traditionalists.

Peace

Gilberto
-- 
pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush

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Re: One Common Faith

[JS]

Hi,

I don't think my messages are getting through, so let me try again.

This is a very interesting document, and I am interest in reading through this.This was written for Naw-Ruz 2005, right?
Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The One Common Faith has been placed on the web by Dr Fosterhttp://bahaistudies.net/bwc/onecommonfaith.htmlOne Common FaithCommissioned by the Universal House of Justice
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

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