re: puzzled by Jim,
Dear Jim, Being a bit confused about your own position with regard to this statement: What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. [While I appreciate the clarification offered in response to Khazeh. I'm still not certain if you are advocating the promotion of personal desires or admonishing those who do... in the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth] ... and your following up question re: Seven Valleys and Four Valley with further quotes from the Hidden Words - suggest to me that perhaps you feel you have reached some degree of spiritual insight that perhaps others are unaware. Each of us have capacity for spiritual insight to lesser and greater degrees. To be truly informed of the innermost mysteries hidden in the Sacred Writings carries certain conditions and prerequisites as Baha'u'llah describes: Shouldst thou desire to apprehend these celestial allusions, to witness the mysteries of divine knowledge, and to become acquainted with His all-encompassing Word, then it behoveth thine eminence to inquire into these and other questions pertaining to thine origin and ultimate goal from those whom God hath made to be the Wellspring of His knowledge, the Heaven of His wisdom, and the Ark of His mysteries. For were it not for those effulgent Lights that shine above the horizon of His Essence, the people would know not their left hand from their right, how much less could they scale the heights of the inner realities or probe the depths of their subtleties! Whosoever entereth this city will comprehend every science before probing into its mysteries and will acquire from the leaves of its trees a knowledge and wisdom encompassing such mysteries of divine lordship as are enshrined within the treasuries of creation. (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 14) Abdu'l-Baha further warns us: When man is not endowed with inner perception he is not informed of these important mysteries. *The retina of outer vision though sensitive and delicate may nevertheless be a hindrance to the inner eye which alone can perceive. The bestowals of God which are manifest in all phenomenal life are sometimes hidden by intervening veils of mental and mortal vision which render man spiritually blind and incapable* but when those scales are removed and the veils rent asunder, then the great signs of God will become visible and he will witness the eternal light filling the world. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 266) And to sum up my personal view... I think it IS possible to have TOO MUCH of a GOOD thing and offer this quote from Baha'u'llah: It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favourably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavours exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. (Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 112-114) Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Good and bad imitation
In His Words of Wisdom Baha'u'llah admonishes us not to imitate others: The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice, is for man to free himself from idle fancy and imitation... (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 156) Yet in another place, He urges us to follow the learned who possess certain virtues: O people of God! Righteous men of learning who dedicate themselves to the guidance of others and are freed and well guarded from the promptings of a base and covetous nature are, in the sight of Him Who is the Desire of the world, stars of the heaven of true knowledge. It is essential to treat them with deference. They are indeed fountains of soft-flowing water, stars that shine resplendent, fruits of the blessed Tree, exponents of celestial power, and oceans of heavenly wisdom. Happy is he that followeth them. (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 96) Likewise, the 11th Imam urged people to pattern themselves after the learned who possessed these virtues: Concerning the prerequisites of the learned, He saith: 'Whoso among the learned guardeth his self, defendeth his faith, opposeth his desires, and obeyeth his Lord's command, it is incumbent upon the generality of the people to pattern themselves after him' (Quoted in The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 26) I am wondering if in the original, the same word is translated as follow, as pattern after and as imitate; and if the significance of criticizing imitation is that Baha'u'llah is urging patterning after the virtuous, and not after the base. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Good and bad imitation
O people of God! Righteous men of learning who dedicate themselves to the guidance of others and are freed and well guarded from the promptings of a base and covetous nature are, in the sight of Him Who is the Desire of the world, stars of the heaven of true knowledge. It is essential to treat them with deference. They are indeed fountains of soft-flowing water, stars that shine resplendent, fruits of the blessed Tree, exponents of celestial power, and oceans of heavenly wisdom. Happy is he that followeth them. (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 96) Dear Brent, Showing deference to the learned is not the same thing as 'imitating' them. Likewise, the 11th Imam urged people to pattern themselves after the learned who possessed these virtues: Imitation or taqlid was an essential part of Shi'ite Islam. The doctrine was that the mujtahids alone had the right to interpret Islamic law and everyone else was obliged to follow (imitate) their rulings. The fact that there are hadiths from the Imams endorsing this practice is no sign that this principle still operates in the Baha'i Faith. It seems to me that Baha'u'llah is quoting the hadith in question in order to outline the prerequisites of the learned, not to endorse the practice of taqlid. I am wondering if in the original, the same word is translated as follow, as pattern after and as imitate; and if the significance of criticizing imitation is that Baha'u'llah is urging patterning after the virtuous, and not after the base. I'm pretty sure it is the same word but I think you are misinterpreting what Baha'u'llah is trying to say here. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Good and bad imitation
Brent, I know that you are familiar with the quote in which the Guardian likens the Word to a sphere, which has points that are poles apart, but which are connected by the thoughts and doctrines that are between them. In the Gems of Divine Mystery, He alludes to the contingent world of material existence as one of the realms of contradiction (page 3). People, IMHO, are all on one infinite spiritual continuum leading from the abode of dust to the heavenly homeland. And every one is at a unique point on that continuum. That is perhaps why there are innumerable meanings in the Writings ..theres something for everyone. Bahaullah states that how we view things depends upon our perspective (e.g. where we are on the continuum): As to thy question whether the physical world is subject to any limitations, know thou that the comprehension of this matter dependeth upon the observer himself. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 162) So, there is a reason why the Writings you quote about following leaders can appear contradictory. New thought: It can be suggested that most things in the Writings have a condition placed upon them .for example, in the Kitab-i-Ahd, He says: In earthly riches fear is hidden and peril is concealed (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 219) Yet, we are also told that means are important and necessary. The condition that has been placed on wealth, IMHO, is that we are to expend it in His path, and be like, as the Guardian states, the fountain or spring that is continually emptying itself, being refilled from an invisible source. Now, directly to your point. I think Bahaullah places conditions on what is a good leader to follow. And that follow is, indeed, the key word .by follow, He may intend that we follow their example. I would agree with your assessment that Baha'u'llah is urging patterning after the virtuous, and not after the base. New thought: It is fascinating to view some of the innumerable meanings of the Word that are expressed on this list. James _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Help with Arabic term
Dear Susan The Vanguard conference is a conference for the upliftment and advancement of people of colour; and for those who wish to support that effort. Richard. - Original Message - From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Help with Arabic term He was the main speaker at a conference in Ft. Lauderdale; the Vanguard conference. Dear Richard, What is the Vanguard Conference? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
