Re: Terms vs. Concepts
A literal reading of _Some Answered Questions_ has led many Baha'is to assume that `Abdu'l-Baha was promoting what some have called parallel evolution, which is nearly identical to Christian old-earth creationism. Hi Mark, So... in contrast what do you assume / conclude about evolution as described by Abdu'l-Baha using alternative hermeneutic strategies? Certainly, my own views have been strongly influenced through participation on this list over the years; because I felt compelled to reassess my understanding using those issues of literary, historical, social, and cultural context you mentioned, and so graciously shared by more knowledgeable members who routinely engage in research based on methodological principles. The result has been a sense of expanded awareness, but not necessarily a reversal of my initial interpretation or again understanding of a particular concept. As Richard mentioned: [ I ] ...do not think in terms of strategies.. while at the same time conceding that I do, indeed, employ personal strategies to analyze the rationale/motivation of certain Sacred Scriptures. My feeling is that most people do. Their approach may not be recognizable as scientific methodology and, they would most likely reject any suggestion that it IS. I think of it as using our inherent rational faculty so that we can articulate and describe an otherwise elusive spiritually based conviction. Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Terms vs. Concepts
However, one must begin with a literal understanding of a word (one may even find it necessary to repair to a dictionary). One must also begin with fundamental principles. It is, I think, better to adhere to plain meanings, dictionary definitions and fundamental principles rather than step into the unknown world of the concepts of another human being who will be judged by the same God. I agree that one needs to start with the plain, literal meanings; however, I think that these are simply the first steps for greater understanding, within the framework given by the Manifestations. One of Paul's statements that I can actually cite by chapter and verse (like many Christians know John 3:16) is II Corinthians 3:6 where God . . . hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. I think that the ability to minister and understand the spirit comes with believers who live the principles of the spirit--love, joy, humility, justice, obedience to God's laws, etcetera. It is way too easy to get caught up in the letter, whether in a literal meaning or esoteric interpretation. In whatever measure, the opposite characteristics--ego, vanity, selfishness, fear, greed and hatred--can lead to misinterpretations of scripture whenever they are included (knowingly or unknowingly) in the evaluation. Baha'u'llah also wrote that Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book. (ESW, p. 129) In other words, we can't ignore obvious meanings. One literal statement in Baha'u'llah's writings comes to mind. I have seen it used on a non-Baha'i web site to say that Baha'u'llah is scientifically wrong and therefore can't be a Manifestation. The statement is: For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. (Iqan, p. 157) One could argue for a long time about whether or not this might be literally possible, but there is already a spiritual solution to this in the Holy Writings that requires little interpretation and (at least in my opinion) has much greater import and significance. Baha'u'llah compared a man to a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 161) So clearly, it could be a logical step to take this concept to a 70 year life span of a man, and the transformative power that can be found in the protection of God's teachings during this life span. In context, in the previous paragraph He is talking about the Divine Elixir. This can also be reinforced by the historic and theological context in which He made the statement. Rumi, who Baha'u'llah validated through references in works such as the Seven Valleys, wrote of men that : Inside they are precious pearls, big and little. These men also resemble the musk deer's bag; Outside it is blood, but inside pure musk; Yet, say not that outside 'twas mere blood, Which on entering the bag becomes musk. Nor say that outside the alembic 'twas mere copper, And becomes gold inside, when mixed with elixir. (The Mathnavi, Vol. 1) This is completely consistent with (and provides precedent for) Baha'u'llah's teaching about copper to gold in the Iqan. This can be taken even further in that the Choice sealed wine shall be given them to quaff, The seal of musk of the Qur'an in Sura 83 (the Deceivers in Measure) becomes in the Aqdas the unsealed, transformative choice wine that is no mere code of laws. In my opinion, in the divine alchemy of the soul, the spirit and its interpretations, as provided by the Manifestations, are of primary importance, while literal interpretations, or interpretations for which there is no basis in the Holy Writings (and ones that can lead to contention and discord) are a distant second. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Terms vs. Concepts
Richard, At 12:11 PM 3/10/2004, you wrote: The proof of the correctness of those assertions would require some considerable evidence. Evidence that words and concepts are not the same? Isn't that statement based on simple face validity? Two people can both use the word freedom. For one person, the term might represent the concept of freedom from corporate oppression (the elimination of capitalism). For another, it could reflect a belief in economic liberalism (laissez-faire capitalism). In order to appreciate these differences, one needs to understand what was in the mind of the speaker or writer. We can approach that level of knowledge through contextualization and epoche (phenomenological reduction). However, merely basing one's understanding on the spoken or written word, without deep reflection and a consideration of context, will likely lead to literalism and confusion. Somehow I feel a certain fondness for fundamentalists. They are looking for the irreducible, the solid rock upon which to build their house of faith. I daresay such an effort is commendable. Intriguing. I would say petrified rock, not solid rock. I find little to commend in most of the fundamentalisms I have studied. Do you feel the same way about the Baha'i fundamentalisms? Yes indeed that is true for many of them. However, the ministers, pastors, etc. of many of them deplore the lack of understanding of their people regarding the development of their own Faith and its meaning. Some ministers and priests with whom I have had the privilege of speaking, seem to find themselves in a web of contradictions from which they cannot extricate themselves. The situation is distressing for all. I would say that it depends on whether the minister is a fundamentalist, a conservative neo-evangelical Christian, a moderate (or liberal) neo-evangelical Christian, a liberal Christian, or something else. The closer people come to fundamentalism, the less likely they are to recognize these contradictions. Can one bear to recognize that the foundation of one's belief is error? It can certainly be a test. Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
RE: Terms vs. Concepts
Hi Mark, Very interesting post on literalism... Being something of a literalist myself, could you give some concrete examples of term vs. concept from the Baha'i Writings ? This is NOT meant as a challenge, but rather because an example would better enable me to see what you are suggesting. Thanks! Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
