Re: Letters of the Living
In my opinion the Dawnbreakers falls into the category of "matters strictly related to the Cause". Here is something from the Universal House of Justice 1977-08-22 "He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to "matters which are related strictly to the Cause." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Bud Dean, here he is not interpreting the word of God, but the word of Nabil. Not that he doesn't have additional insight, mind you, but I think the thrust of it is the fact that Nabil isn't scripture, so his translation/interpretation/interpolation may not partake in his infallibility. warmest regards, Christian. Dean Betts wrote: Dear Ahang, ...He is the Interpreter of the Word of God ... -- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
David wrote: It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by name! However, David, in -God Passes By-, Shoghi Effendi indicates that the Bab DID address each of them *by name - the names bestowed on them by Baha'u'llah in Badasht. This is not to say all 18 were present; as the Guardian doesn't state that specifically.'' ... By these names they were all subsequently addressed by the Báb in the Tablets He revealed for each one of them. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 32) Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
However, David, in -God Passes By-, Shoghi Effendi indicates that the Bab DID address each of them *by name - the names bestowed on them by Baha'u'llah in Badasht. This is not to say all 18 were present; as the Guardian doesn't state that specifically.'' ... By these names they were all subsequently addressed by the Báb in the Tablets He revealed for each one of them. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 32) So shouldn't it be easy to find out who the Letters of the Living are? I think it would help greatly if someone would translate the Tablets to the Letters. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Dean, I think it would help greatly if someone would translate the Tablets to the Letters. If by help you mean help to identify the identity of the Letters, no they won't. Both Moojan and myself commented on this a while back on this list. None of the Tablets contain anything that you can identify them as belonging to this or that person. They are simply addressed to the first Letter, etc. Further, these Tablets are incredibly hard to read. A special project was commissioned by the World Centre to have someone (A learned Baha'i who was later assassinated by the Islamic regime in Iran) transcribe these Tablets. I know several other efforts to read them, but they were only partially successful. At any rate, these Tablets don't seem to contain any info of historical interest. Regards, ahang. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Didn't our beloved Guardian approve the publication of the Dawn Breakers? I thought I read a long time ago somewhere that the Dawnbeakers was more or less a work of Shoghi Effendi using Nabil's notes. True, not true? Strictly speaking, this is not true. Shoghi Effendi edited Nabil's narrative, but all evidence so far suggests by editing he simply left out parts and moved some things around, but did not alter the content. (As a translator/editor, he was ethically bound to leave the content alone, even if he wanted to change things. But he did augment some incorrect/incomplete info by Nabil with lots of footnotes that he thought would help the readers.) I emphasize again that the virtue that the Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by Shoghi Effendi does not by itself confer upon it any special significance. It's simply a Baha'i myth to think otherwise. Nabil's narrative, either in original or in Shoghi Effendi's translation, with stand or fall on its own merits. And we already have proven many things in it to be simply incorrect (e.g. various dates, references, etc) or suspect very strongly to be a product of Nabil's imaginative mind (eg. prayer of the Bab for His son Ahmad, or His farewell address to the Letters, etc) Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, David Friedman wrote: about their tablets? It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by name! David Security reasons, dear David, security reasons. Babis could very easily be killed when/if identified by name. Also, perhaps the Bab addressed more than one Tablet to each letter of the Living; perhaps some of those Tablets addressed to them after Badasht did not survive. We also don't know exactly who got what name in Badasht anyhow (except for Baha'u'llah, Quddus, and Tahirih). Warmest regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
I emphasize again that the virtue that the Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by Shoghi Effendi does not by itself confer upon it any special significance. I have to disagree with this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Ahang, In addition to the following, your opinion that Shoghi Effendi's edition of the Dawnbreakers "does not confer upon it any special significance" indeed does not set well with me. "O my loving friends! After the passing away of this wronged one, it is incumbent upon the Aghsán (Branches), the Afnán (Twigs) of the Sacred Lote-Tree, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God and the loved ones of the Abhá Beauty to turn unto Shoghi Effendi--the youthful branch branched from the two hallowed and sacred Lote-Trees and the fruit grown from the union of the two offshoots of the Tree of Holiness,-- as he is the sign of God, the chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, he unto whom all the Aghsán, the Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God and His loved ones must turn. He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11 Thank you, Dean - Original Message - From: Ahang Rabbani To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Letters of the Living Dear Dean, I wrote: I emphasize again that the virtue that the Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by Shoghi Effendi does not by itself confer upon it any special significance.To which you responded: I have to disagree with this.And you based your disagreement on what?! Because it doesn't sit well with you, or you actually have a logical argument? Thanks, ahang. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents." Dear Dean and Ahang, The Dawnbreakers is *not* the Word of God however. And you have to balance this statement with Guardian's own assertion that he is not infallible in matters of history, etc. Dean, was your question recarding 'sacred mythology' aimed at me? If so I think 'sacred narrative' was the phrase I used. I deliberately avoided the term mythology, exactly for the reason you state, that in popular usage it is thought to mean something that didn't really happen. I prefer the term sacred narrative both because it avoids the confusion and misunderstandings that the word 'mythology' creates *and* because I think it avoids the opposite extreme which is the way I see Ahang's position that Dawnbreakers has no 'special significance.' There is a reason that the Guardian chose to translate this particular work. However, I think those reasons were more theological than because it was more historically accurate.Hence I would be inclined to privilegeNabil's Narrative in terms of its protrayal of the theological meaning of these events, but not necessarily the accuracy of the events themselves. We can argue how much he edited it but unless someone has a copy of the original, I'm not sure we can really say. Dr. Banani thought the changes were extensive enough to make it an entirely different work. I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt 'ethically bound' by those standards of scholarship which binds us academics. Academic scholars are usually bound to cite their sources as well, something Shoghi Effendi completely ignores in God Passes By. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Susan, You've caught me on a slow day, so let me respond to your posting. There is a reason that the Guardian chose to translate this particular work. However, I think those reasons were more theological than because it was more historically accurate. If there were some theological reasons, then that needs to be demonstrated. So far, I don't know of any such reason. What aspect of the Dawn-breakers is theological to you? It simply portrays the Babi Faith as a precursor to Baha'u'llah's appearance, but that line of argument was available in lots of other places, such as A Traveler's Narrative. I think the main reason that Shoghi Effendi translated an edited version of Nabil's Narrative was to remove the effect of E.G. Browne as the main Babi/Baha'i storyteller. That is, if anyone wanted to know the history of the Babis, they had to read something by Browne, who had an agenda of his own and didn't believe in the Babis being the proto-Baha'is, and worried about Azal's role, etc. So the easiest thing to do was to provide the Baha'i community with an elegantly translated narrative of the Babis (which effectively countered everything that Browne had published), which continued the line of thinking in A Traveler's Narrative, and declare that the unchallengeable history. After that, no Baha'i would bother with things like Tarikh-i Jadid or Materials, etc, because they had the unchallengeable document. That worked like a charm. In fact, we saw it very nicely demonstrated during the past couple of days when someone ask for the list of Letters and someone opened the DB and said, Here you go. This is THE list. The unchallengeable list. Well, folks, things aren't that simple. We can argue how much he edited it but unless someone has a copy of the original, I'm not sure we can really say. I have provided extensive discussion of this very issue in my Nayriz article which I posted on Tarikh a few months ago. I would refer you to that. Dr. Banani thought the changes were extensive enough to make it an entirely different work. To my knowledge, Prof Banani has not had the opportunity to examine the original of Nabil's, or engage in critical text analysis that Kavian Milani or I are doing. I suspect what Prof Banani offered was an educated guess, but since the time you heard him speak those words, which must have been some years ago, we've done lot more analysis through Nabil's own text and through proxies, such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my Nayriz article. You should really read it some time ;-} I thoroughly enjoyed reading it myself ;-} I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt 'ethically bound' by those standards of scholarship which binds us academics. Academics has nothing to do with it. Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Ahang wrote: I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt 'ethically bound' by those standards of scholarship which binds us academics. Susan Maneck wrote: Academics has nothing to do with it. Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth. Would Ahang and Susan please elaborate on their remarks? I'm a little confused. Was someone trying to put words in someone else's mouth? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Susan, And you have to balance this statement with Guardian's own assertion that he is not infallible in matters of history, etc. What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility? I thought heclaimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith. To me, this would include the Faith's history. Best, Dean __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 8:03:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If there were some theological reasons, then that needs to be demonstrated. So far, I don't know of any such reason. What aspect of the Dawn-breakers is theological to you? It simply portrays the Babi Faith as a precursor to Baha'u'llah's appearance, but that line of argument was available in lots of other places, such as A Traveler's Narrative. Dear Ahang, If that was all there was to it, then Traveler's Narrative should have been enough. But besides length I think there is a different agenda involved. Abdu'l-Baha seems mostly concerned to vindicate the Babi-Bahai Faiths in relationship to the government. But Nabil goes out of his way to make the Bab appear as Christlike as possible. The Farewell Sermon to the Letters of the Living is virtually identical to the one Jesus gave when He sent out the seventy. Likewise, the sky darkens at the Bab's martyrdom just as it is said to have done during the crucifixtion (and as you know there is no other account which substantiates this.) This made Dawnbreakers an ideal book to present the Bab to Western believers. I think the main reason that Shoghi Effendi translated an edited version of Nabil's Narrative was to remove the effect of E.G. Browne as the main Babi/Baha'i storyteller. That is, if anyone wanted to know the history of the Babis, they had to read something by Browne, who had an agenda of his own and didn't believe in the Babis being the proto-Baha'is, and worried about Azal's role, etc. He could have solved that problem merely by retranslating Traveler's Narrative. That's what he did when Ahmad Sohrab translated Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. So the easiest thing to do was to provide the Baha'i community with an elegantly translated narrative of the Babis (which effectively countered everything that Browne had published), which continued the line of thinking in A Traveler's Narrative, and declare that "the unchallengeable" history. And you don't think that Shoghi Effendi referring to Nabil's Narrative that way gives it any "special significance"? You might argue the Guardian had reasons for doing this but you can hardly say he didn't do it! To my knowledge, Prof Banani has not had the opportunity to examine the original of Nabil's, or engage in critical text analysis that Kavian Milani or I are doing. You have access to the original Nabil's narrative? I suspect what Prof Banani offered was an educated guess, but since the time you heard him speak those words, which must have been some years ago, Not many. Three or four. we've done lot more analysis through Nabil's own text And where are these copies of Nabil's text you are working with? and through proxies, such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my Nayriz article. You should really read it some time ;-} Did you add more material to it? I haven't gone through a lot of the postings on Tarikh because that looked to be repeats of what you had posted earlier on Bridges. Academics has nothing to do with it. Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth. My understanding is he slashed rather than added. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 9:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility? I thought he claimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith. To me, this would include the Faith's history. He claimed to be infallible in matters related to the *protection* of the Faith. Are these really protection issues? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
-Original Message-From: Dean Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 06 April 2004 02:15Subject: Re: Letters of the LivingWhat were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility?I thought heclaimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith.To me, this would include the Faith's history. Dear Dean Here is something from the Universal House of Justice 1977-08-22 "Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to "matters which are related strictly to the Cause." He further points out that "he is not, like the Prophet, omnicient at will," that his "infallibility covers interpretation of the revealed word and its application," and that he is also "infallible in the protection of the Faith." Cheers, Jay __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Susan,
You have access to the original Nabil's
narrative?
You really have not been following Tarikh,
have you?
And where are these copies of Nabil's
text you are working with?
In a safe place ;-}
and through proxies,
such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my
Nayriz article.
You should really read it some time ;-}
Did you add more material to it? I
haven't gone through a lot of the postings
on Tarikh because that looked to be repeats of what you had posted
earlier on
Bridges.
Clearly you didn't follow the paper nor
the discussions ;-{
My understanding is he slashed rather
than added.
He did both. See the Nayriz paper
;-}
Regards,
ahang.
__
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Re: Letters of the Living
Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause. He further points out that he is not, like the Prophet, omnicient at will, that his infallibility covers interpretation of the revealed word and its application, and that he is also infallible in the protection of the Faith. From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the revealed word. He would be able to tell us that the Writings were telling us that something happened historically. David _ Listen to music online with the Xtra Broadband Channel http://xtra.co.nz/broadband __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 11:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the revealed word. Dear Dean, Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that would apply to a book like the Dawnbreakers. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 10:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the revealed word. He would be able to tell us that the Writings were telling us that something happened historically. I would think also he is infallible when he discusses a part of the Writings that allude to a scientific process: i.e. his explanation of the "copper to gold" transmutation NOT just being a spiritual metaphor but a description of a scientifically describably process that was not yet understood in his time. )f course, we understand it now - in a theoretical sense - but he confidently asserted it before science could have upheld it. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Scott, At 11:40 PM 4/5/2004, you wrote: I would think also he is infallible when he discusses a part of the Writings that allude to a scientific process: i.e. his explanation of the copper to gold transmutation NOT just being a spiritual metaphor but a description of a scientifically describably process that was not yet understood in his time. )f course, we understand it now - in a theoretical sense - but he confidently asserted it before science could have upheld it. You are probably referring to this statement: Considering that a century ago, nobody knew the nature of matter, and couldn't split any kind of an atom, it should not surprise the scientist that Abdu'l-Baha states that copper can be transmuted into gold. There may come a time, for all we know, when the mass of many atoms can be changed by scientists. We have no way of proving or disproving at present the statement of Abdu'l-Baha. Just because we cannot demonstrate a contention in the Baha'i Teachings does not mean the contention is not true. The same holds true of the statement of Baha'u'llah in the Iqan, regarding transmutation of copper into gold after seventy years, under certain conditions. We as Baha'is must assume that, as He had access to all knowledge, He was referring to a definite physical condition which theoretically might exist. Because we don't know what this condition is in scientific terms does not refute Baha'u'llah's statement at all. -- From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955, and cited: Lights of Guidance, p.479 I think it is important to focus on what he did *not* say. He did not suggest that scientists assume, in the context of their work, the validity of a lower (natural) alchemy. He interpreted these texts as indicating certain possibilities in nature. Talking about nature and its qualities (elemental transmutation) is different from providing hypotheses for testing. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Ahang, I am under the impression that Nabil is to be given special consideration as a source. All the best, Dean. - Original Message - From: Ahang Rabbani To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 3:29 AM Subject: Re: Letters of the Living Dear Dean, You wrote: Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by Nabil? I think you were on Tarikh when we had a thorough discussion of this, and hopefully you kept up with the arguments and don't want me to reinvent the wheel now. Nabil was in no position to know *exactly* who the Letters were. There is nothing from the Bab that gives the names either. So, Nabil pulled his best info together (a little Text, a little hearsay, a little guess work, etc) and came up with a list that represents his best guesstimate. It is no more than that: A suggested list. Other folks, like Qabil Abadihiy, have made other suggestions. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKoreanwww.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/4/2004 2:43:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am under the impression that Nabil is to be given special consideration as a source Dear Dean, Not so much as a 'source' but as a sacred narrative. At least that is the way I look at it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of Siyyid Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of the Living penned by the Bab. Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of Siyyid Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of the Living penned by the Bab. Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are? There's eighteen, right? I have them reproduced at the beginning of my copy of The Dawn-Breakers. Wouldn't some of the descendants of people who received these tablets be able to fill us in, and didn't any Letters write about their tablets? It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by name! David _ Watch movie trailers online with the Xtra Broadband Channel http://xtra.co.nz/broadband __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Correction, God Passes By page 347 says that there exists original tablets penned by the Bab to the Letters of the Living. They were NOT penned in the handwriting of the Bab's amanuensis as I incorrectly transcribed. Still, does anyone know how many of these tablets there are? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of Siyyid Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of the Living penned by the Bab. Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are? There are twenty (20). They are reproduced in color in the front of the American Edition of The Dawnbreakers. The first 18 are to the 18 Letters of the Living. The 19th is to the Bab Himself from Himself. The 20th is to the Him Who will be made manifest (Baha'u'llah). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Sandra, David was asking for references by Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha. What you've posted is by Nabil (translated by Shoghi Effendi). This listing is merely a suggestion by Nabil and no more. Others have suggested other individuals as Letters. Regards, ahang. Please respond to Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Letters of the Living David writes: Just wondering if we have any references from people like 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi referring to specific people as Letters of the Living. Happy to be of assistance... Lovingly, Sandra As to those whose supreme privilege it was to be enrolled by the Báb in the Book of His Revelation as His chosen Letters of the Living, their names are as follows: Mulla Husayn-i-Bushru'i, Muhammad-Hasan, his brother, Muhammad-Baqir, his nephew, Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami, Mulla Khuda-Bakhsh-i-Quchani, later named Mulla Ali Mulla Hasan-i-Bajistani, Siyyid Husayn-i-Yazdi, Mirza Muhammad Rawdih-Khan-i-Yazdi, Sa'id-i-Hindi, Mulla Mahmud-i-Khu'i, Mulla Jalil-i-Urumi, Mulla Ahmad-i-Ibdal-i-Maraghi'i, Mulla Baqir-i-Tabrizi, Mulla Yusif-i-Ardibili, Mirza Hadi, son of Mulla Abdu'l-Vahhab-i-Qazvini, 81 Mirza Muhammad-'Aliy-i-Qazvini.[1] Tahirih,[2] Quddus. These all, with the single exception of Tahirih, attained the presence of the Báb, and were personally invested by Him with the distinction of this rank. (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 80-81) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Ahang (and David)...
Thank you for the clarification Ahang! Particularly, because
in God Passes By - not a translation... ;- ) - the Guardian
mentions several individuals who, in context, could to be
understood as among the Letters of the Living - on pages
10-24.
I can't help wondering; being generally confused by
Persian/Arabic names and titles, if some of these individuals
are in fact one person with different names.
On each of the twenty-two days of His sojourn in that hamlet
He revealed a Tablet, which was chanted in the presence of the
assembled believers. On every believer He conferred a new
name, without, however, disclosing the identity of the one who
had bestowed it. He Himself was henceforth designated by the
name Baha. Upon the Last Letter of the Living was conferred
the appellation of Quddus, while Qurratu'l-'Ayn was given the
title of Tahirih. By these names they were all subsequently
addressed by the Báb in the Tablets He revealed for each one
of them. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 32)
Ahang, can you offer an opinion on how identification of the
Eighteen might be resolved eventually? {...thinking of the
Twenty-four Elders)
Lovingly, Sandra
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Re: Letters of the Living
Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by Nabil? - Original Message - From: Ahang Rabbani To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Letters of the Living Dear Sandra, David was asking for references by Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha. What you've posted is by Nabil (translated by Shoghi Effendi). This listing is merely a suggestion by Nabil and no more. Others have suggested other individuals as Letters. Regards, ahang. Please respond to "Baha'i Studies" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Baha'i Studies" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Letters of the Living David writes: Just wondering if we have any referencesfrom people like 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi referring tospecific people as Letters of the Living. Happy to be of assistance...Lovingly, Sandra"As to those whose supreme privilege it was to be enrolled bythe Báb in the Book of His Revelation as His chosen Letters ofthe Living, their names are as follows:Mulla Husayn-i-Bushru'i,Muhammad-Hasan, his brother,Muhammad-Baqir, his nephew,Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami,Mulla Khuda-Bakhsh-i-Quchani, later named Mulla AliMulla Hasan-i-Bajistani,Siyyid Husayn-i-Yazdi,Mirza Muhammad Rawdih-Khan-i-Yazdi,Sa'id-i-Hindi,Mulla Mahmud-i-Khu'i,Mulla Jalil-i-Urumi,Mulla Ahmad-i-Ibdal-i-Maraghi'i,Mulla Baqir-i-Tabrizi,Mulla Yusif-i-Ardibili,Mirza Hadi, son of Mulla Abdu'l-Vahhab-i-Qazvini, 81Mirza Muhammad-'Aliy-i-Qazvini.[1]Tahirih,[2]Quddus.These all, with the single exception of Tahirih, attained thepresence of the Báb, and were personally invested by Him withthe distinction of this rank."(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 80-81)__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKoreanwww.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
This whole issue reminds me of the twelve apostles of Jesus. Lists vary. _ Need more speed? Get Xtra JetStream @ http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Dean, You wrote: Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by Nabil? I think you were on Tarikh when we had a thorough discussion of this, and hopefully you kept up with the arguments and don't want me to reinvent the wheel now. Nabil was in no position to know *exactly* who the Letters were. There is nothing from the Bab that gives the names either. So, Nabil pulled his best info together (a little Text, a little hearsay, a little guess work, etc) and came up with a list that represents his best guesstimate. It is no more than that: A suggested list. Other folks, like Qabil Abadihiy, have made other suggestions. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Sandra, Ahang, can you offer an opinion on how identification of the Eighteen might be resolved eventually? In my view, I don't think it can be solved. I think we can be certain of some and will never know for sure about others. For instance, any list of Letters of the Living will have Quddus, Tahirih, Mulla Husayn, Mulla Baqir, etc, on it. But there will always be a debate about the identity of some others. That is, there are differences among early lists and I don't think we are in a position to resolve these differences one way or other. Shoghi Effendi wanted to name each of the terraces below and above the Shrine of the Bab after one of the Letters. I think he eventually gave up on the idea recognizing that whatever list he proposed, it would not end the debate and someone would point to some early list and would say, But what about this other fellow? Why is he not a Letter? So the safest course for Shoghi Effendi was to do nothing, namely, not to propose a list. And even if Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha had offered a list, I'm not sure if we could ascribed any final authority to it. That is, that would open up the question: Were Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi authorized to make pronouncements about the Babi Dispensation? That's a pretty difficult question and I rather not get into it. I simply raised it to illustrate the complexity of the terrain. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
