Re: root almighty
I've run as a regular user on Debian, but updates would break most of it. huh? what are you doing to make that happen? breakages happend at most twice: - when dbus was upgraded -- and that was remedied by putting the fso related changes in an additional file - when nodm changed its configuration -- instead of managing these data in /etc/init.d/nodm it went to /etc/default/nodm both changes happend a long time ago. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: in fact there is a lot of closed linux devices out there , for example routers,motorola phones, ebook reader... and those doesn't mean Linux is closed, It only means that if they don't publish the code, and that's usual, they are violating the GPL. http://gpl-violations.org/ Not necessarily. They don't have to provide any mechanism to re-flash the device, then the linux based device is just as closed, even when they publish the source. GPL does not protect against this (v3 might, not sure). Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: The problem with Android is not the license of the OS, but the ecosystem around it. Closed hardware, DRMd content (applications, music), the restrictions imposed on the OS by cell companies... it's a nightmare, and the freedom of the user doesn't even appear in the horizon. It's BSD style FOSS. Anyone can do what they like with it. The fact that others can close their versions doesn't detract from that. If you want to argue that it loses flexibility as a platfor, when you're using a self- or community-compiled version, then sure. Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: I have strong feelings against Android, for the restrictions around it are very similar to those of the iPhone, though Apple doesn't try to disguise themselves as open source paladins. No, they really aren't. You can download and install stuff from outside the approved store on commercial android handsets and on free/open ones ones (Android on FR) you have full control, including the full source under APL2. You just try getting the source from Apple and running it somewhere else. Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: Android, as a platform (not an OS, not a device) is worst than closed, for it lures developers with the false concept of an open environment. Yes, just like the entire BSD operating system! It's a trap! *facepalm* Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: Yes, people could fork and create gAndroid but where would they run it? It's a wolf with a lamb skin, Why fork when you can port? There are several places doing just that and re-submitting upstream when they have good results. It's being ported to some nokia devices, netbooks, FR etc. And why is it a wolf in lambs skin? I mean, what the hell are you talking about at this point? Where would they run what? Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: And my last rant. Why did they create yet another isolated platform? For f*cks sake! It's not even standard java! At least Objective-C builds on top of C! Couldn't they create a set of libraries? Or use if they wanted portability use Python? Argh! My 2 cents Java is the most popular language on the planet right now, more people know it than know pretty much anything else going. Attracting developers is essential to the success of the platform. Why *not* use java? I use python myself, and I like it, but I don't see why choosing java was wrong. Frankly, I think you're nuts. A big corp puts a lot of work in and releases a whole new userspace environment targeted at MIDs, phones etc, under one of the least restrictive licenses out there, and you're calling it worse than closed source! You're weird! You instinctively decide to hate it due to some features you don't like (which are aimed at supporting proprietary apps, and you're free to disable in your version, or just not use those apps). There's nothing stopping people from releasing android apps as FOSS. personally I really like the idea of paying for apps from an app store if I choose to, or using/writing free ones if I don't. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Is-Android-really-free--%28was-Re%3A-root-almighty%29-tp2943035p2952092.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
I should also add that at least in the short term I would expect that being able to run android applications on FR is going to give me a far wider choice of mobile-friendly software than any of the true linux distros available for FR. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Is-Android-really-free--%28was-Re%3A-root-almighty%29-tp2943035p2952101.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
No, they really aren't. You can download and install stuff from outside the approved store on commercial android handsets Hello, is it true that Google can uninstall an app not approved by themselves (that is, an app not included in the 'Android Market')? I understand the app would be uninstalled when the user visits a Google shop or accesses a Google service? Regards, Juan Lucas De: community-boun...@lists.openmoko.org en nombre de Gothnet Enviado el: jue 21/05/2009 15:53 Para: community@lists.openmoko.org Asunto: Re: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty) Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: in fact there is a lot of closed linux devices out there , for example routers,motorola phones, ebook reader... and those doesn't mean Linux is closed, It only means that if they don't publish the code, and that's usual, they are violating the GPL. http://gpl-violations.org/ Not necessarily. They don't have to provide any mechanism to re-flash the device, then the linux based device is just as closed, even when they publish the source. GPL does not protect against this (v3 might, not sure). Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: The problem with Android is not the license of the OS, but the ecosystem around it. Closed hardware, DRMd content (applications, music), the restrictions imposed on the OS by cell companies... it's a nightmare, and the freedom of the user doesn't even appear in the horizon. It's BSD style FOSS. Anyone can do what they like with it. The fact that others can close their versions doesn't detract from that. If you want to argue that it loses flexibility as a platfor, when you're using a self- or community-compiled version, then sure. Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: I have strong feelings against Android, for the restrictions around it are very similar to those of the iPhone, though Apple doesn't try to disguise themselves as open source paladins. No, they really aren't. You can download and install stuff from outside the approved store on commercial android handsets and on free/open ones ones (Android on FR) you have full control, including the full source under APL2. You just try getting the source from Apple and running it somewhere else. Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: Android, as a platform (not an OS, not a device) is worst than closed, for it lures developers with the false concept of an open environment. Yes, just like the entire BSD operating system! It's a trap! *facepalm* Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: Yes, people could fork and create gAndroid but where would they run it? It's a wolf with a lamb skin, Why fork when you can port? There are several places doing just that and re-submitting upstream when they have good results. It's being ported to some nokia devices, netbooks, FR etc. And why is it a wolf in lambs skin? I mean, what the hell are you talking about at this point? Where would they run what? Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: And my last rant. Why did they create yet another isolated platform? For f*cks sake! It's not even standard java! At least Objective-C builds on top of C! Couldn't they create a set of libraries? Or use if they wanted portability use Python? Argh! My 2 cents Java is the most popular language on the planet right now, more people know it than know pretty much anything else going. Attracting developers is essential to the success of the platform. Why *not* use java
RE: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
jldominguez wrote: Hello, is it true that Google can uninstall an app not approved by themselves (that is, an app not included in the 'Android Market')? I understand the app would be uninstalled when the user visits a Google shop or accesses a Google service? It's not true that any non-approved app would be uninstalled as soon as the user visits the market, that's a little bit too Apple-ish. The App store is not the only place that you can get software. However there does seem to be a kill switch that would enable google to disable specific applications. IMHO this is another good reason to run it on FR instead of G1 or other closed handset though, as this capability can be discovered and disabled in the source tree. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Is-Android-really-free--%28was-Re%3A-root-almighty%29-tp2943035p295.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
You instinctively decide to hate it due to some features you don't like (which are aimed at supporting proprietary apps, and you're free to disable in your version, or just not use those apps). There's nothing stopping people from releasing android apps as FOSS. personally I really like the idea of paying for apps from an app store if I choose to, or using/writing free ones if I don't. There is something stopping people from contributing: make: *** No rule to make target `run-java-tool', needed by `out/host/common/obj/JAVA_LIBRARIES/droiddoc_intermediates/javalib.jar'. Stop. what should I do? PS: I've some java warnings etc...I hope it's not the fault of icedtea/openjdk Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
GNUtoo wrote: There is something stopping people from contributing: make: *** No rule to make target `run-java-tool', needed by `out/host/common/obj/JAVA_LIBRARIES/droiddoc_intermediates/javalib.jar'. Stop. what should I do? PS: I've some java warnings etc...I hope it's not the fault of icedtea/openjdk I'm not familiar with that particular situation, though someone on the just posted some generic build instructions, which might be useful so I'll repost it - Marcelo wrote: Go to: http://git.koolu.org/ Follow the instructions there to checkout the code. Go to http://trac.koolu.org/ and follow the rest of the instructions. Basically: $ mkdir -p ~/bin $ curl http://android.git.kernel.org/repo ~/bin/repo $ chmod a+x ~/bin/repo $ mkdir ~/mydroid $ cd ~/mydroid $ repo init -u git://git.koolu.org/freerunner/platform/manifest.git -b koolu-1.0 $ repo sync $ make TARGET_PRODUCT=freerunner replace koolu-1.0 by whatever branch you wish to work on (look at the git repo to find out which ones are available) Since you need that TARGET_PRODUCT variable always, I find it better to do this: $ cat buildspec.mk TARGET_PRODUCT := freerunner ^D $ make If you wish to switch a branch, do $ repo init -b new_branch $ repo sync (and likely rm -rf out) Marcelo -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Is-Android-really-free--%28was-Re%3A-root-almighty%29-tp2943035p2953292.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
-[ Tue, May 19, 2009 at 04:59:35PM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra ] What's proprietary about android? The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. Like you I don't feel confortable with Android, yet I don't think one could say Android on the FR is less free than any other free software. The problem is not that it's not free but rather that its copyright owner is willing to produce non-free phones with it. To be able to do that they had to refuse to use the community software and create/buy their own. Then, as a community, why should we support a software intentionaly designed to create closed phones ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
*Can the HTC Dream (T-Mobile G1) developer version be fully modified in order to run an OS like the openmoko one? the labeled devices (ie those providers give away) have a bootloader that checks for signed code -- the signature is proprietary to the provider and not available. thus, these devices are not to be modified. since android does not include hardware drivers, even with a more open bootloader you might be stuck with a device not usable with other software since the drivers won't run and the source is not available. for the g1 there used to be a developer edition be available which allowed to modify everything, which imo sold out rather fast and is not available anymore (except ebay or other second hand channels). there's probably work going on (or finished already) to break the bootloader's check, but where does that leave you once the provider updates the software? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
I am a bit aghast at the weirdness shown here: Going by the criteria most of you use, you must immediately delete all versions of Linux and destroy your OM phones and any other harware you own, as it almost certainly has used proproety software/hardware somewhere in its manufacturing chain: Linux has been used on a number of propriety devices, including very tightly locked down versions (Nokia and other phones). OM hardware has the closed firmware GPS and GSM chipsets Many of your favourite utilities are present on Apple machines, so you cant ever use ls, rm etc. ever again ... Wake up! BillK The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. Like you I don't feel confortable with Android, yet I don't think one could say Android on the FR is less free than any other free software. The problem is not that it's not free but rather that its copyright owner is willing to produce non-free phones with it. To be able to do that they had to refuse to use the community software and create/buy their own. Then, as a community, why should we support a software intentionaly designed to create closed phones ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au Home in Perth! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
GNUtoo wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 21:56 +0100, Juergen Schinker wrote: About the android port of the openmoko: I heard There were several limitations such as: *all hardware not fully functional yet (wifi,calls,suspend etc...): Suspend is fine. Wifi is fantastic, so much better than any of the other distros have been. Calls work just fine. GPS and GPRS have worked brilliantly on some images. This all may have taken a few steps back lately with the concentration on moving to cupcake. I'm not sure how great the koolu beta 6 is, though progress is still being made. Michael Trimarchi at panicking.kicks-ass.org has made some great images (14.6 in particular worked very well and I was able to use the phone as a full GPS with AndNav for the first time). GNUtoo wrote: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Android_usage *has problem with booting: you need SD+flash in order to run android maybe using a distro on sd and android on flash+another SD could do the trick? There is an sd-only setup method, koolu.com forums have more details. But yes, the usual setup is to have the OS flashed to NAND and then two partitions on the SD card. GNUtoo wrote: About the android OS: *Is the SDK free(as in freedom) software...I bet it isn't but I could be wrong...this could stop me from trying the android OS The entire OS is free. The kernel is linux and everything else is under the APL2, an FSF approved license. http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#apache2 GNUtoo wrote: *it could be difficult to run applications depending on glibc...I didn't test bionic(android libc) compatibility...in openembedded we also have others libc...such as uclibc Yes, android is very, very non standard. Whilst it is a Linux due to the kernel, it's cetainly not GNU/Linux as we know it. The userspace is restricted and weird. It's pretty much designed just to support the UI and the other java code. You certainly wouldn't be able to use Qt or GTK with android. This may well rule it out for a lot of people. For me, it's more important to have the freerunner as a working device that I can try to hack at later than as a full UNIX platform. The app store is also appealing, though I'm not sure it's available yet. GNUtoo wrote: *I don't know android build system...maybe porting the android OS to openembedded could be a good idea... Denis. That's not something I know a hell of a lot about. There is a build system (I think it just uses make) and a toolchain available. Again, check koolu if you're interested. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/root-almighty-tp2937829p2945347.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 05:37:50PM +0800, William Kenworthy wrote: Going by the criteria most of you use, you must immediately delete all versions of Linux and destroy your OM phones and any other harware you own, as it almost certainly has used proproety software/hardware somewhere in its manufacturing chain: You have a completely radical view of the subject which I don't subscribe. Linux has been used on a number of propriety devices, including very tightly locked down versions (Nokia and other phones). And I don't advocate them. OM hardware has the closed firmware GPS and GSM chipsets They run on independent processors and conversation is done through a serial device, modem-like. It's not perfect, but it's light years ahead in terms of freedom. I am a bit aghast at the weirdness shown here: Wake up! Please don't insult people. I resent the implications of those two statements. Thanks, Rui -- Grudnuk demand sustenance! Today is Setting Orange, the 67th day of Discord in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
В Срд, 20/05/2009 в 17:37 +0800, William Kenworthy пишет: Many of your favourite utilities are present on Apple machines, so you cant ever use ls, rm etc. ever again ... Nope, I can - watch me ;-) Sorry about provoking such a huge flame - I didn't expect that purely technical issue will bring it up. Personally I prefer to use things that are free (as in Freedom - English people should really invent separate words for freedom's and freebeer's free - wwe have it in Russian and it makes life a lot easier :) So if I have ability to choose - like with many FR distros than I'll use free software (debian, om, whatever) instead of closed or semi-free (android and alikes). In case with firmware - I have no such choice but I would switch to free version immediately if it'll come up. cheers, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Max wrote: Sorry about provoking such a huge flame - I didn't expect that purely technical issue will bring it up. In the beggining you had technical question. You recieved pure technical answer.. Then you started this flamewar with i dont want to use proprietary crap answer. It would be better to not provoke at all then feeling sorry later. So if I have ability to choose - like with many FR distros than I'll use free software (debian, om, whatever) instead of closed or semi-free (android and alikes). This is your personal view. Others might have different view and this is fine. But it would be better to write about facts. So for people that prefer facts to others conclusions take a look at http://git.koolu.org/ and make your conclusion for yourself if this Android is free or not. Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 17:26 +0700, Max wrote: ...Personally I prefer to use things that are free (as in Freedom - English people should really invent separate words for freedom's and freebeer's free - wwe have it in Russian and it makes life a lot easier :) It's in English. The word is liberty. As in, I have the liberty to drink in my home. My favourite term is FLOSS. Almighty Wikipedia has an article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_terms_for_free_software ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
GNUtoo wrote: About the android OS: *Is the SDK free(as in freedom) software...I bet it isn't but I could be wrong...this could stop me from trying the android OS The entire OS is free. The kernel is linux and everything else is under the APL2, an FSF approved license. http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#apache2 I've asked on IRC about android SDK and I was told that there were 2 versions: *a non-free version tight to that EULA: http://developer.android.com/sdk/terms.html *a free version compilable from source without google stuff(such as maps) I was told I had to gab source.android.com, type make and then make sdk so I think I'll try android...but I'll look first if it's tight to google services...(I'm already spied a lot using google search engine...I don't want to be spied more) Thanks a lot for all your responses. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
GNUtoo wrote: *a free version compilable from source without google stuff(such as maps) I was told I had to gab source.android.com, type make and then make sdk Yes, a hand full of Google apps are unfree. But what I find amazing is, that they cust comply to a known api as any other program could do. So you can in fact repace them without yinxing usability. Even on a 'official' android device. so I think I'll try android...but I'll look first if it's tight to google services...(I'm already spied a lot using google search engine...I don't want to be spied more) _that_ is a real issue for me too. I use a G1 for a while now, and I mostely like it. Though it has serious problems. But the fact that is not even intended not to have a google account and not having your contacts and calendars mirrored in the google cloud is really annoying. Not not annoying, it angers me greatly. And Bluetooth support is a mess. No OBEX, no FTP nothing useful. Imagine a smartphone where you can't send contacts via bluetooth! (ok, varous OM distros don't do it out of the box too...) -- MFG Tilman Baumann ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 16:52 +0200, GNUtoo wrote: GNUtoo wrote: About the android OS: *Is the SDK free(as in freedom) software...I bet it isn't but I could be wrong...this could stop me from trying the android OS The entire OS is free. The kernel is linux and everything else is under the APL2, an FSF approved license. http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#apache2 I've asked on IRC about android SDK and I was told that there were 2 versions: *a non-free version tight to that EULA: http://developer.android.com/sdk/terms.html *a free version compilable from source without google stuff(such as maps) I was told I had to gab source.android.com, type make and then make sdk so I think I'll try android...but I'll look first if it's tight to google services...(I'm already spied a lot using google search engine...I don't want to be spied more) I've tried android koolu beta 6: As I had QI i formated a 2GB sd-card in ext2 and uncompressed the tarball on it Then it booted and installed android... Then I had a splash screen...(so no kernel messages) Then the ugly part...there is skype(the Desktop version bypass firewalls,eat/steal your bandwith if you have a lot of it,is encryptd,offuscated,send encrypted stream to the network etc...)!!! Then I was on irc and I told that there was skype and they told me there were plain koolu images without skype at http://moko.serdar-dere.net/ then I put android on sd and it boots the old android you must reformat the sd card and re-extract the plain koolu android on the sd-card and then boot from NOR on the sd-card I hope I will still be able to boot SHR Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Hi Max, I've run as a regular user on Debian, but updates would break most of it. If you are going to try it on Debian, then don't forget the DBus and /dev rights to be set correctly. I have not seen any technical issues with using a normal user[1] and I'm all for it. As far as I know, nobody has enough leadership to get a distribution to actually do this. (If you ask me, this is the likely root of why the OpenMoko phone sucks). Greetings and happy hacking, Bram On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 13:53 +0700, Max wrote: Hello. As far as I know most (all?) distributions for FR use root account to run phone application and to access device via ssh. To my mind this introduce great security risk. At the same time on my Ubuntu by default root is unable to logon anyhow and everything is done via sudo. This lets me think that there is no need to use root account on FR - at least not for running phone application and for remote access. I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Are there any plans to use regular user instead of root in om2009? Maybe using package-kit (which works via dbus btw) and policy-kit might help? best regards, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
GNUtoo wrote: I've asked on IRC about android SDK and I was told that there were 2 versions: *a non-free version tight to that EULA: http://developer.android.com/sdk/terms.html *a free version compilable from source without google stuff(such as maps) I was told I had to gab source.android.com, type make and then make sdk so I think I'll try android...but I'll look first if it's tight to google services...(I'm already spied a lot using google search engine...I don't want to be spied more) Thanks a lot for all your responses. Denis. I didn't know there was still a proprietary version of the SDK, and that does suck a bit. The Android on Freerunner stuff builds the open bits. Google gears library is missing, I think only because nobody's ported it yet. That said, I had no problem hooking up the mail client to my SMTP server. No google account needed. On bluetooth - that's not perfect in android on FR by a long way. I could create a pairing with my BT headset, an the button on it worked for answering calls, but no audio was routed over it. To make a version for Neo Freerunner, you'll need to use the Koolu repository as well, to get the FR specific changes they're doing. I'm not saying it's going to be easy... -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/root-almighty-tp2937829p2946726.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
root almighty
Hello. As far as I know most (all?) distributions for FR use root account to run phone application and to access device via ssh. To my mind this introduce great security risk. At the same time on my Ubuntu by default root is unable to logon anyhow and everything is done via sudo. This lets me think that there is no need to use root account on FR - at least not for running phone application and for remote access. I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Are there any plans to use regular user instead of root in om2009? Maybe using package-kit (which works via dbus btw) and policy-kit might help? best regards, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Max wrote: At the same time on my Ubuntu by default root is unable to logon anyhow and everything is done via sudo. This lets me think that there is no need to use root account on FR - at least not for running phone application and for remote access. I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Maybe take a look at Android? Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, 19 May 2009 09:48:37 +0200 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz said: Max wrote: At the same time on my Ubuntu by default root is unable to logon anyhow and everything is done via sudo. This lets me think that there is no need to use root account on FR - at least not for running phone application and for remote access. I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Maybe take a look at Android? Radek andorid is totally out there with every process having a different user id... iho its just too much. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Are there any plans to use regular user instead of root in om2009? Maybe using package-kit (which works via dbus btw) and policy-kit might help? my debian works as non-root since i started using it -- in fact, it was one of the reasons to use debian, because i was really unhappy with that all things root. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:21 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez пишет: Max, search on the list, for example in nabble[1], and you will find a lot of pretty lng threads disscussing this issue [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html Tried to search it but found only small discussion on setting root password and using ssh key authorization for login instead of password. This definitely adds some security but to my mind running phone software which is actively communicating with outside world by definition under root account is still a huge problem. Would you point me to particular link to that discussion? Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:48 +0200, Radek Polak пишет: Maybe take a look at Android? That's not an option for me because I plan to limit myself to free (as in freedom) distributions only. If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone I would just buy some sort of chineese iphone :-) Thanks for suggestion anyway, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
2009/5/19 Max m...@darim.com: В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:21 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez пишет: Max, search on the list, for example in nabble[1], and you will find a lot of pretty lng threads disscussing this issue [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html Tried to search it but found only small discussion on setting root password and using ssh key authorization for login instead of password. This definitely adds some security but to my mind running phone software which is actively communicating with outside world by definition under root account is still a huge problem. Would you point me to particular link to that discussion? Hi Max, you are right it's no so evident to find that informantion, my fault I'm been quite long on the list and this topic has arised multiple times so I have the sensation this was a long topic but instead it was spread in multiple threads. here are some examples I have found, surely will be more http://n2.nabble.com/running-om2008-as-normal-user-tc1366763ef1958.html#a1366763 http://n2.nabble.com/Re%3A-moko-running-everything-as-root-tp7782p7782.html http://n2.nabble.com/MokSec---The-Security-Framework-tp518044p526912.html http://n2.nabble.com/FSO-Taipei-agenda-tp1115805p1115969.html Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Max m...@darim.com wrote: В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:48 +0200, Radek Polak пишет: Maybe take a look at Android? That's not an option for me because I plan to limit myself to free (as in freedom) distributions only. If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone I would just buy some sort of chineese iphone :-) Well, the Freerunner, is some sort of Taiwanese/Chinese phone :) And you can get some proprietary stuff from Finland or the US as well. I guess the country doesn't matter that much. Thanks for suggestion anyway, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -Jose ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Max m...@darim.com writes: I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? I have been using my debian installation as non-root since last summer. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 15:30 +0700, Max wrote: ... If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone ... Sorry, no gsm for you. The modem's firmware is proprietary. Anyone who hasn't read the leaked ti calypso documentation want to write a free firmware? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 06:42:20AM -0700, Ali wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 15:30 +0700, Max wrote: ... If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone ... Sorry, no gsm for you. The modem's firmware is proprietary. Anyone who hasn't read the leaked ti calypso documentation want to write a free firmware? alternatively, anywone wants to read the docs and write a doc of their own that someone can use ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 06:42:20AM -0700, Ali wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 15:30 +0700, Max wrote: ... If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone ... Sorry, no gsm for you. The modem's firmware is proprietary. Anyone who hasn't read the leaked ti calypso documentation want to write a free firmware? That problem is half-solved by having it's own processor, so it's a bit like acessing a proprietary web-site with your Free Software browser. I surely would love that those firmwares weren't proprietary, but it's still quite a long way in the good path to have a Free Software operating system and (though still sucky) telephony software that talks via modem to those other independent processors. Rui -- Hail Eris, Hack GNU/Linux! Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 66th day of Discord in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Max Suraev wrote: В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:48 +0200, Radek Polak пишет: Maybe take a look at Android? That's not an option for me because I plan to limit myself to free (as in freedom) distributions only. If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone I would just buy some sort of chineese iphone :-) Thanks for suggestion anyway, Max. What's proprietary about android? You think the android folks are throwing hacked binaries around the place? Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, The source is available to anyone. I don't really see what's proprietary about it. Check out koolu for their android source git, though the mainline source is available directly from google. Some of the android images have worked a hell of a lot more smoothly than anything that came out of OM, too. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/root-almighty-tp2937829p2939838.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
As far as I know most (all?) distributions for FR use root account to run phone application and to access device via ssh. To my mind this introduce great security risk. The Debian distribution works with a non-root user. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:23:38AM -0700, Gothnet wrote: Max Suraev wrote: В Втр, 19/05/2009 в 09:48 +0200, Radek Polak пишет: Maybe take a look at Android? That's not an option for me because I plan to limit myself to free (as in freedom) distributions only. If I wanted some proprietary staff on my phone I would just buy some sort of chineese iphone :-) Thanks for suggestion anyway, Max. What's proprietary about android? The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. And no, an unbricked android phone does not count as Free Software since you're possibly breaking the law (in the US thanks to the DMCA, and in EU thanks to the EUCD). You think the android folks are throwing hacked binaries around the place? No, just gladly providing the tools to remove our freedoms. Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. it. Check out koolu for their android source git, though the mainline source is available directly from google. Yes, the OpenMoko is the first Free Software example of Android (and it's the worst out there for making calls on the FreeRunner, according to the comments I've seen). Rui -- Hail Eris, Hack GNU/Linux! Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 66th day of Discord in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
rms wrote: The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. DRM? They're just locked, you don't get root if you buy a G1 or other similar phone. I also don't see what's a smokescreen about the fact that operators won't sell an unlocked phone? It's just a fact, and that's why it's locked. I don't like it which is why I'm not advocating buying one. rms wrote: And no, an unbricked android phone does not count as Free Software since you're possibly breaking the law (in the US thanks to the DMCA, and in EU thanks to the EUCD). Who's talking about an unbricked anything? I'm talking about android on OM. rms wrote: You think the android folks are throwing hacked binaries around the place? No, just gladly providing the tools to remove our freedoms. You're an idiot. rms wrote: Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. I'm sorry, I'm all for the GPL, but if I have the source (under APL2) for the OS I'm running on my openmoko, nobody can take that away and make it proprietary. You're just wrong. rms wrote: Yes, the OpenMoko is the first Free Software example of Android (and it's the worst out there for making calls on the FreeRunner, according to the comments I've seen). Rui Really? Best distro so far in my opinion. No need to drop to the command line for GPRS/WiFi. Stable, decent keyboard, smooth graphics, responsive. Compared to android most of the other stuff I've seen on the OM is crap. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/root-almighty-tp2937829p2940527.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:23:38AM -0700, Gothnet wrote: What's proprietary about android? The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. And no, an unbricked android phone does not count as Free Software since you're possibly breaking the law (in the US thanks to the DMCA, and in EU thanks to the EUCD). Are you talking about Android, or are you talking about phones that run it? Obviously, most phones that run Android are proprietary. The Freerunner is not. That's got nothing to do with whether the Android OS is free software. Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. According to the FSF, Apache 2 is a free software license: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#apache2. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. It's true that someone can make a proprietary fork of the Android code. The code that's installed on my phone will continue to be free. it. Check out koolu for their android source git, though the mainline source is available directly from google. Yes, the OpenMoko is the first Free Software example of Android (and it's the worst out there for making calls on the FreeRunner, according to the comments I've seen). To the extent that the Freerunner is a free phone (proprietary bits like the GSM modem and wifi notwithstanding), if you run Android on it you will be using a free phone with a free as in freedom operating system. Jim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but is that really so hard to fix? If one has time to play around, default login can be substituted with one of a restricted user. Check out what breaks, fix it, repeat. What must be absolutely run as root can be but I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to move most of the userspace to restricted user accounts. What's the hard part? Yogiz On Tue, 19 May 2009 13:53:15 +0700 Max m...@darim.com wrote: Hello. As far as I know most (all?) distributions for FR use root account to run phone application and to access device via ssh. To my mind this introduce great security risk. At the same time on my Ubuntu by default root is unable to logon anyhow and everything is done via sudo. This lets me think that there is no need to use root account on FR - at least not for running phone application and for remote access. I wonder - is there distribution which tried to address this issue? Are there any plans to use regular user instead of root in om2009? Maybe using package-kit (which works via dbus btw) and policy-kit might help? best regards, Max. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 01:44:49PM -0400, Jim Ancona wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:23:38AM -0700, Gothnet wrote: What's proprietary about android? The DRM locking you out of applying changes to phones. The excuse of oh, its the phone maker/operator that does it is a mere smoke screen. And no, an unbricked android phone does not count as Free Software since you're possibly breaking the law (in the US thanks to the DMCA, and in EU thanks to the EUCD). Are you talking about Android, or are you talking about phones that run it? Obviously, most phones that run Android are proprietary. The Freerunner is not. That's got nothing to do with whether the Android OS is free software. Well, since Freedom 0 is hampered in practice, as well as freedom 3, and without freedoms 0 and 3, 1 and 2 aren't of much use, I can't label software oriented towards being DRM friendly as Free Software, in practice. And software that is only Free Software in theory... well, that doesn't quite cut it, for me. Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. According to the FSF, Apache 2 is a free software license: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#apache2. We're miscommunicating. What I'm saying is that the end result is more restricted software rather than more Free Software, hence only from a superficial level can it be considered as less restricted. At an atomical level, yes, but life doesn't end there :( I can't properly configure IBM HTTPd Server because IBM (in Portugal) is claiming not to support our configuration (more PCI:DSS oriented), so bummer for APL :) To the extent that the Freerunner is a free phone (proprietary bits like the GSM modem and wifi notwithstanding), if you run Android on it you will be using a free phone with a free as in freedom operating system. Yes, but I am using my freedom of choice to choose not to support a model oriented towards reducing user freedom, and my freedom of speech to advocate against it. :) Crappy (but with strong and promising signs for the future) as the current telephony apps are, I'll take them any day first rather than Android. Best, Rui -- Umlaut Zebra �ber alles! Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 66th day of Discord in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
rms wrote: Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. Please read the Criticism on wikipedia about android and than this http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/02/an-introduction-to-google-android-for-developers.ars and look at android not just as an working distro look at the concept of android and from what google lives and than really make up your mind and you will admit that android is not an option. J ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Can you point out exactly which criticism of Android on the wikipedia page you think makes Android not a 'free' option on the OM, and what part of the ars technica article you are talking about? I've read through both and it isn't obvious to me. I certainly agree that Android running on a locked phone with all the restrictions associated with it is not 'free'. But I must say that I don't see why the Koolu implementation of Android running on the FR wouldn't qualify as free. You've got the source under an open source license, you can run what ever free software you like on it. That smells like 'free' to me. I don't see how the fact that people can create 'non-free' android distros on other phones impacts whether the verson on the FR is free... Warren On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Juergen Schinker ba1...@homie.homelinux.net wrote: rms wrote: Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. Please read the Criticism on wikipedia about android and than this http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/02/an-introduction-to-google-android-for-developers.ars and look at android not just as an working distro look at the concept of android and from what google lives and than really make up your mind and you will admit that android is not an option. J ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Warren Baird - Photographer and Digital Artist http://www.synergisticimages.ca ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 21:56 +0100, Juergen Schinker wrote: rms wrote: Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. Please read the Criticism on wikipedia about android and than this http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/02/an-introduction-to-google-android-for-developers.ars This article makes android looks fine but I have several briefs and questions against android: About android hardware: *Can the HTC Dream (T-Mobile G1) developer version run without its proprietary ATI 3d driver...I bet it can? *Can the HTC Dream (T-Mobile G1) developer version be fully modified in order to run an OS like the openmoko one? (maybe I could try if I buy an android...I know my way around openembedded(I've commit access) ) but I've already an openmoko and a bug device from buglabs. About the android port of the openmoko: I heard There were several limitations such as: *all hardware not fully functional yet (wifi,calls,suspend etc...): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Android_usage *has problem with booting: you need SD+flash in order to run android maybe using a distro on sd and android on flash+another SD could do the trick? About the android OS: *Is the SDK free(as in freedom) software...I bet it isn't but I could be wrong...this could stop me from trying the android OS *it could be difficult to run applications depending on glibc...I didn't test bionic(android libc) compatibility...in openembedded we also have others libc...such as uclibc *I don't know android build system...maybe porting the android OS to openembedded could be a good idea... Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
in fact there is a lot of closed linux devices out there , for example routers,motorola phones, ebook reader... and those doesn't mean Linux is closed, 2009/5/19 Warren Baird wjba...@alumni.uwaterloo.ca: Can you point out exactly which criticism of Android on the wikipedia page you think makes Android not a 'free' option on the OM, and what part of the ars technica article you are talking about? I've read through both and it isn't obvious to me. I certainly agree that Android running on a locked phone with all the restrictions associated with it is not 'free'. But I must say that I don't see why the Koolu implementation of Android running on the FR wouldn't qualify as free. You've got the source under an open source license, you can run what ever free software you like on it. That smells like 'free' to me. I don't see how the fact that people can create 'non-free' android distros on other phones impacts whether the verson on the FR is free... Warren On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Juergen Schinker ba1...@homie.homelinux.net wrote: rms wrote: Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. APL2 (and similar licenses) mean that somewhere along the line YOU may not have a Free Software phone on your hands, just another proprietary piece of crap. Please read the Criticism on wikipedia about android and than this http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/02/an-introduction-to-google-android-for-developers.ars and look at android not just as an working distro look at the concept of android and from what google lives and than really make up your mind and you will admit that android is not an option. J ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Warren Baird - Photographer and Digital Artist http://www.synergisticimages.ca ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tuesday 19 May 2009 20:04:51 Yogiz wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong but is that really so hard to fix? If one has time to play around, default login can be substituted with one of a restricted user. Check out what breaks, fix it, repeat. What must be absolutely run as root can be but I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to move most of the userspace to restricted user accounts. What's the hard part? The hard part is to do this in OpenEmbedded, in a way that allows to chose between all-root and all-non-root users without breaking stuff. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: Well, since Freedom 0 is hampered in practice, as well as freedom 3, and without freedoms 0 and 3, 1 and 2 aren't of much use, I can't label software oriented towards being DRM friendly as Free Software, in practice. How are Freedoms 0 and 3 hampered? (For those who don't know what we're talking about, see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) On my Freerunner, I can run Android for any purpose, I can make changes to the software and release those changes to the community. OTOH, it's possible that someone could port OM2009 to proprietary hardware. That wouldn't make the hardware free or OM2009 non-free. Arguably it would make the entire system (phone+software) more free than it was. How is Android DRM-friendly? And software that is only Free Software in theory... well, that doesn't quite cut it, for me. Again, the FSF, the same folks who define those four freedoms say that is free Android is under the APL2, which has even less restriction than the GPL, Only on a superficial level can that be true. It has less restrictions than the GPL because the later tries to make sure everyone has all the essencial freedoms. According to the FSF, Apache 2 is a free software license: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#apache2. We're miscommunicating. What I'm saying is that the end result is more restricted software rather than more Free Software, hence only from a superficial level can it be considered as less restricted. At an atomical level, yes, but life doesn't end there :( I see the end result as more free software and the possibility of more restricted software (since someone can always make a proprietary fork). I can't properly configure IBM HTTPd Server because IBM (in Portugal) is claiming not to support our configuration (more PCI:DSS oriented), so bummer for APL :) If you wanted free software you could have used Apache's HTTP Server, not IBM's. Note that Apache is still free software, even though IBM sells a fork of the Apache code. To the extent that the Freerunner is a free phone (proprietary bits like the GSM modem and wifi notwithstanding), if you run Android on it you will be using a free phone with a free as in freedom operating system. Yes, but I am using my freedom of choice to choose not to support a model oriented towards reducing user freedom, and my freedom of speech to advocate against it. :) Of course you can make that decision. I see Android increasing the total amount of user freedom, especially in the mobile world, which has been almost totally closed up until very recently. Imagine how many more people might be using Freerunners (and how much better shape Openmoko might be in) if Android had come out a year earlier than it did. I hope the availability of Android will eventually drive the release of more open hardware, opening up more choice for all of us, including those like you who don't want to use Android. Jim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[OT] Is Android really free? (was Re: root almighty)
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 00:43, David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com wrote: in fact there is a lot of closed linux devices out there , for example routers,motorola phones, ebook reader... and those doesn't mean Linux is closed, It only means that if they don't publish the code, and that's usual, they are violating the GPL. http://gpl-violations.org/ The problem with Android is not the license of the OS, but the ecosystem around it. Closed hardware, DRMd content (applications, music), the restrictions imposed on the OS by cell companies... it's a nightmare, and the freedom of the user doesn't even appear in the horizon. I have strong feelings against Android, for the restrictions around it are very similar to those of the iPhone, though Apple doesn't try to disguise themselves as open source paladins. Android, as a platform (not an OS, not a device) is worst than closed, for it lures developers with the false concept of an open environment. Yes, people could fork and create gAndroid but where would they run it? It's a wolf with a lamb skin, And my last rant. Why did they create yet another isolated platform? For f*cks sake! It's not even standard java! At least Objective-C builds on top of C! Couldn't they create a set of libraries? Or use if they wanted portability use Python? Argh! My 2 cents -- Ignacio Torres Masdeu http://ignacio.torresmasdeu.name/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: root almighty
Max m...@darim.com writes: As far as I know most (all?) distributions for FR use root account to run phone application Yeah, it sucks badly;). I sent a mail to the SHR list the other day. This issue will be resolved and future SHR distributions will not run as super user. -- Esben Stien is b...@e s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
