Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 12/02/14 14:16, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Hi! On 02/12/2014 01:04 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day? You cannot always win in life :). Short version: Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What is your problem with me working on it??? My problem is your attitude. I don't have any problems to let you work on what you want, as I said before, I appreciate your work. However, I have a problem with how you reacted when it was clear that your favored system would not be chosen as default. All kinds of accusations against members of the TC (OpenRC was not considered at all) and being huffy like a little child that didn't get what he wanted [1]. Please stop this. It is neither helpful nor relevant. Thomas can keep working on openrc, you have systemd by default I can depend on logind. Sounds like everyone's happy, so let's move on :-) Emilio -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fca3c2.3060...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, at 11:28, Oleg wrote: I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, etc). So what? Should we stand in awe that you are Debian user? I certainly care about (well most of) the users of my packages, but this attitude makes me really angry and frustrated. Debian is a community project and we all have invested enormous amounts of our free time, employer time, etc. If you _WANT_ something to happen, you _HAVE TO_ invest _YOUR TIME_ (or money, I am quite sure that you would be able to get several DD on your paycheck, etc.). If you don't want to use systemd, then it's YOUR burden to make it happen. Expecting things to happen your way by just bitching around^W^Wcomplaining on the mailing list is so selfish from you that you should be ashamed of yourself. Just to give you an example. Although I think that the systemd is the best choice for Debian, I really admire Thomas Goirand for putting his money where his mouth is. He believes in OpenRC and he invested his own time to make it work on Debian (and kFreeBSD and Hurd). And I quite happy to support his effort within my packages with init scripts to make my packages work with alternative init systems (just no more of sysv-rc please). So if you want to have Debian installation without systemd, then go help him with OpenRC, help writing new openrc init scripts to replace old rusty sysv-rc script, etc. That's the way to go forward. Just don't expect other people to do it for you. And if you don't want to invest energy in something you believe in and you want just to complain, then with all due respect just shut up, please. O. -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392293782.19499.82933453.0de66...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 01:16:22PM +0100, Ond??ej Sur?? wrote: So if you want to have Debian installation without systemd, then go help him with OpenRC, help writing new openrc init scripts to replace old rusty sysv-rc script, etc. That's the way to go forward. Just don't expect other people to do it for you. You are right. I already spent my free time in various projects, but i can't do everything. About OpenRC, it looks very good in contrast of systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140213123350.GA11303@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Stephan Seitz stse+deb...@fsing.rootsland.net writes: On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:39:06AM +, Darac Marjal wrote: But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you Alsa is using the DMIX plugin for years, and before that I always had soundcards with hardware mixing. Simply buy the proper tools. That is what I was thinking as well, but just recently I had to killall pulseaudio to be able to access my ALSA device again. For me, pulseaudio falls into the same category as network-manager. Whenever I had to deal with it, it didnt do what I expected. -- CYa, ⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87lhxfrvk8@fx.delysid.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
For software that is incompatible with pulseaudio, prefix the command with 'pasuspender': $ pasuspender oss-or-alsa-only-program args... Jeff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140213140127.gb85...@unpythonic.net
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 20:16 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 04:18:50PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad bug! As mentioned before: File a bug. There is no bug if its not installed. Same happened to me. Purging pulseaudio allowed the audio to work once again. I had to do that on one of my boxes too. I have two audio cards and pulseaudio/gnome-applets chose the wrong one (did not find the other). alsamixer works OK :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392191993.9850.19.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
❦ 12 février 2014 08:16 CET, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz : Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad bug! As mentioned before: File a bug. There is no bug if its not installed. Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs on this ground. -- die_if_kernel(Penguin instruction from Penguin mode??!?!, regs); 2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/arch/sparc/kernel/traps.c signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: systemd is used as the default init system in: - Fedora - Arch Linux - Mageia - openSUSE - SLES (upcoming) - RHEL7 - Frugalware - (see Wikipedia) And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users? Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms. Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms belong to desktops and servers? What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects. I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, etc). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212102855.GA7159@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies actively support Upstart and OpenRC. Is this important? Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it can be supported only by companies? If you want company support use RedHat. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212103354.GB7159@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:20:55PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: $ journalctl | grep $ journalctl | tail -n 500 grep /var/log/syslog tail -n 500 /var/log/syslog Hm... Is this really simplier? O, wait. I can easily copy my log to any other machine to analyze it there with: scp /var/log/syslog ... Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212105339.GC7159@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
There is no bug if its not installed. Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs on this ground. But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. -- Salvo Tomaselli Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno. -- Galileo Galilei http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/6419075.MX38SGhNyN@vulcano
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:28 AM, Oleg wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: systemd is used as the default init system in: - Fedora - Arch Linux - Mageia - openSUSE - SLES (upcoming) - RHEL7 - Frugalware - (see Wikipedia) And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users? Those are among the most important distributions which attract most users and developers. So, it does prove that systemd has already a large market share. Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms. Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms belong to desktops and servers? The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will mean everyone else who uses it profits from that. What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects. I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, etc). That's ok, you don't have to use it. Yet, we have chosen it to be the default and you should accept that. Thanks! Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb59d3.60...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies actively support Upstart and OpenRC. Is this important? Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers means steady and fast progress. Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it can be supported only by companies? No. You are turning my argument upside down. If you want company support use RedHat. If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb5a6f.60...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg wrote: Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl? We have discussed this over and over again and there is tons of documentation and discussions explaining the reasoning behind that. Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same questions over and over again. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb5af1.1010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 12:10 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit : But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection, bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix? -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392204956.18551.1485.camel@dsp0698014
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Le 12/02/2014 12:10, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit : There is no bug if its not installed. Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs on this ground. But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. No. You get a basic functionality, not all the features provided by pulseaudio. And I, for one, could never get out of the box mixing of audio streams when not using pulseaudio. I should have configured this manually with esoteric writings in a non-existent file (not remove a comment from a file). Go figure, listening to music and wanting a sound when I receive a message is not default? Could we move on from this subject? Unless you have a bug number to back your affirmations with technical informations (and a date), this is not useful. Sincerely, -- Jean-Christophe Dubacq signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:24:03PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users? Those are among the most important distributions which attract most users and developers. ok. How this is contradict to this: A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are simply forced to use it. So, it does prove that systemd has already a large market share. Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms belong to desktops and servers? The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will mean everyone else who uses it profits from that. Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212114254.GB16587@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:10:58PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: There is no bug if its not installed. Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs on this ground. But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you the ability to stream your audio across the network? Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies actively support Upstart and OpenRC. Is this important? Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers means steady and fast progress. No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical beauty. If you want company support use RedHat. If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should use an another system, that meet your wishes? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212115753.GD16587@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day? You cannot always win in life :). Short version: Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What is your problem with me working on it??? Longer version: Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how much), which is enough to motivate me. That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point, and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying the fun I have hacking OpenRC. This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for myself. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb6350.8080...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:42:54PM +0400, Oleg wrote: A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are simply forced to use it. Kind of empty speak. In any distribution you have a small amount of people who contribute loads of time. E.g. ctte people, etc. If they go into a certain direction you can change things by providing alternatives. You aren't forced in any way. It's a default and nobody is preventing alternatives. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212123655.gc11...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Oleg: If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should use an another system, that meet your wishes? Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you want, within Debian. So what's the problem? Somebody will be forced to manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM). Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the most-featureful init system be the default, because then those features actually get used and tested -- and thus the situation will be more reliable than if only those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who actually _are_ desperate for its features (as opposed to, say, those who are skeptics but find that they won't want to miss those selfsame features once they get used to them …). -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:57:53PM +0400, Oleg wrote: On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies actively support Upstart and OpenRC. Is this important? Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers means steady and fast progress. No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical beauty. Empty statement. He meant that market share means that loads of attention will be given to systemd as well. You'll notice this by the amount of contributors. It's quite clear you don't like systemd. But stability is vague, technical beauty: CTTE determined code quality of both Upstart as well as systemd is at the same level. If you want company support use RedHat. If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should use an another system, that meet your wishes? This request ignores that CTTE decided on systemd as default. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212124016.gd11...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Oleg: A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are simply forced to use it. (a) then you should have complained / started a GR *instead of* delegating the question to the TC. Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. Market share correlates with user and developer interest, which correlates with number of people who work on the program and find bugs and whatnot. We *do* want an init system which doesn't wither away because upstream loses interest or doesn't fix year-old fatal bugs, don't we? Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers. So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and leave the project? You can't really mean that … -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading anywhere. That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do not agree. The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you. This very sentence is the proof of that. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb6dcb.5020...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi! On 02/12/2014 01:04 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day? You cannot always win in life :). Short version: Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What is your problem with me working on it??? My problem is your attitude. I don't have any problems to let you work on what you want, as I said before, I appreciate your work. However, I have a problem with how you reacted when it was clear that your favored system would not be chosen as default. All kinds of accusations against members of the TC (OpenRC was not considered at all) and being huffy like a little child that didn't get what he wanted [1]. My statement about letting go was about you accepting that the TC has made up their minds, nothing else. Longer version: Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how much), which is enough to motivate me. Good. At least you're being honest now. It's your hobby. That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point, and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying the fun I have hacking OpenRC. Then why on earth are you reiterating your points over and over again and acted like that when you didn't get what you want? Just accept it and move on. No one keeps you from hacking on OpenRC and I *never* said you should stop doing that, as I said in a previous mail, I appreciate your work. This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for myself. I was *NOT* trying you to convince you to stop working on something, you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I said, you should stop trying to push your opinion about what should be the default init system when the committee has already made it's decision. And now, I'm out of this discussion, the decision has been made and I have been threatened with violence - twice. Happy OpenRC hacking (no, don't mean this sarcastically!) Adrian [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb741e.5030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading anywhere. That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do not agree. Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say WE as if you're talking for everyone else. If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite. The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you. This very sentence is the proof of that. Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC. And don't take this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop questioning it. We seriously need to move on! Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb77b4@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:28:49PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same questions over and over again. Agree, I explained various things already in the same thread. There are indications of people who indicate they don't like the amount of email and repeated discussions. I don't think it is too much to ask that if you do participate, you at least read what was already written in this thread. I'm totally fine to repeat otherwise: not everyone knows every little detail, was aware of previous threads or remembers everything that might have been discussed before. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212134406.ge11...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers. So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and leave the project? You can't really mean that … This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the phrasing was not If X, then Y, but Just because X, that does not mean Y. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+39KAAoJEASpNY00KDJrD0sP/1WDQV5uYPKeGOYTmrtW9Y/1 4FG6rGGtYOA1fMApkyUdBd9N7Lqe9ROKw36UInbwwVK4r3OPW4YulLiIaU32hyJe QVchC9jNKphGSYHQ8UlXeVs7WXrx8XvFFXojZro1uS0CoH4f1sQEpSgvoqI23GOl MrgUiBB100iCusWLNKcmtP4dbMlDVU1Mpq9gZWFQwkEOBe3ZSCcWuQSvSagfLt3x /hq9vfe6uWhDnvcWJiimDoiCutRvVs7Ng6MZ8oO5ZoCv5siYsmI4yW3dtmsAGRAX X/rf4ELLVbwr6eohTXqrtox7DLHBnRMONBiOOLnR7qTZEh6euz6wQmQf9CO4bzi1 RGWX/xWJm85SA3SVSPtAWS3HrkYxB5PZRLTqaZqjgLrw02LwnhNJVfdyggmgjLFU lsFGyx8IW+FL5/KAtXuUnbcxJBiLdZZl6u2SRoF74ORsMFkonY/n5/L0wgTE2h3e mt9AOmWqfLOtiAkJHggmCiykbRIu0JsY9BZL0i1up3V5W+4zRwR+0EgpMNYCcV/S wkXvtuc9oZZF1gVlP4tl33eiH09FExJsOevfH5F0XNOMcrAuJgQn+BMNWM7TzCxD TCzw8v1BJFjx0dPvMAG3LZFvNgZVQoH2aNYGY1BllMMpE5EeJPmRnw5P3WIlnpNd nTrcURzviZEy86BT7GEE =GpT3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb7f4a.3090...@fastmail.fm
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 09:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading anywhere. That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do not agree. Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say WE as if you're talking for everyone else. If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite. The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you. This very sentence is the proof of that. Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC. From where exactly did you made up that I didn't accept the TC decision? I wrote already to some of them that I did accept it *before* they did it (whatever the decision was). Please stop making-up... Ian Jackson was clear enough, and his input was valuable. I do not regret I asked. And don't take this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop questioning it. We seriously need to move on! Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore. Adrian On 02/12/2014 09:16 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Good. At least you're being honest now. To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm: - derogative - arrogant - utterly annoying - hypocrite - and finally, I wasn't honest before Well done... ! Anything else? Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb86b7.9030...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 03:35 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm: - derogative - arrogant - utterly annoying - hypocrite - and finally, I wasn't honest before Well done... ! Anything else? Telling me to shut up and using sentences like we get it while you keep the right for yourself to continue arguing is derogative, arrogant and hypocrite, yes. Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list. Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what? You continue to behave that way, yet you claim those are insults. You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private. If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think the same way about you. Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, just read your own post: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how often I posted to debian-ctte. That's why you're being hypocrite. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb8ce1.7050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Maybe time for both to agree to take this offlist or just not continue? I don't think anyone means any harm, but arguing will just result in bad blood IMO. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212150400.gf11...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 02/11/2014 12:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm writes: In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at a glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning specialized tool for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it, text streams ... [are] a universal interface. All the folks who are upset about the journal are aware, I hope, that, as configured in the current systemd packages in Debian at least (I haven't tried a generic upstream install), all journal messages are forwarded directly to syslog, right? All the text files that you are looking for still exist in the same form they always have. I believe I've seen that mentioned before, yes. and I'm certainly aware of it now. I was responding specifically to the question of Why do you want your log files in plain-text format?, which is orthogonal to the question of whether systemd et al. support logging in such a format. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+480AAoJEASpNY00KDJrNA8QAIO81Qnjk9ZTf+no1omeConH WmiRpuaZxscKN23ZPk7Xa1EyQNJ+Tn9Gd4lRBQ0EQUsxCaOjQwBvB48dYiGHdkb9 ZdzX9qEu6BbvYIILJXyv/Oda5FO1pXYlYV0OMgcOXCvdHmacGk3VHy+AUcejtSbB gTWBJZRMa7CRYsA/M5nm6e6S1UB4BpUzkvSCYlJ+CwPBGERpQJywTffHxr6ZjRog +l+UoZHIba+RwejC9KJ1jz/hkdpBF3rjfi/Dkk7l70ntY/XjaxnvVzawvLHj67G5 NuJrkJsxOXYTx1dSzzbA3hy6nMFX3FF+d4CI4OEZAOjh1mL8lucfrB+huRBknFHx RYDSN7gw8hVC3Hwu/HsC6skhepPnbMQDqTjyS+BGzH/wgH54LECGD3Qzr1f6Jhis K1zeqpq1gNF0FrHUxGjFXPtMzA+oCgoaOYLP7QYjpHeHIMbkLj1VDz9+EncBZYxa pjmRCZ9OR23+SCgH30WRv0u1cn0A3X7KvsbGR6dJDe2zSQfnoYJTm7fl/r5xsOQ3 LYfYDTiiZ5brQ77XF1XkHcG1uSh4m6qYsvtSw9rxboijh20y229Dsv+HZngixPH7 CyT1yK3Ta76W2Zdixi1+Avjx3YM8J4hFmFZnCWiRLDaURxUUBu8StngYEb+U3ml8 BxXiGsKEkFI5eMY5P3FC =7uz4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb8f34.9060...@fastmail.fm
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
previously on this list John Paul Adrian Glaubitz contributed: You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private. If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think the same way about you. I think you need some balance here as much can be flung in your direction here too. Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, Defeat? That says it all If they have decided on systemd as default then I'd like to see the published reasoning, though I am sure it would annoy me greatly. The fragmentation of Linux (which includes cortex and blackfin kernel support) has begun through an idea that was said to unite and not divide and the benefits are negligible when you consider what linux can already optionally do. OpenRC is also more intuitive and easier to CLI and on install scripts. Promises of uniting leading to the opposite continues to repeat itself through human history, it seems. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/310589.38154...@smtp134.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection, bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix? No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is not the most useful thing. -- Salvo Tomaselli Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno. -- Galileo Galilei http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7338339.C9zb2nfan7@vulcano
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:57:57PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection, bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix? No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is not the most useful thing. As said various times before regarding bugs: File a bug. Your answer does not relate though. The comment was that pulseaudio does not add any value. Your reply doesn't address this at all, just repeats that there is a bug, that was established already. Without a bugreport the bug will not be fixed any time soon. Same as that pulseaudio does allow you to do lots of new things. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212161925.gg11...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:54:48PM +, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If they have decided on systemd as default [...] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html Can we please end this thread? Thanks! Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 09:03:54AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers. So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and leave the project? You can't really mean that ??? This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the phrasing was not If X, then Y, but Just because X, that does not mean Y. Yes. The second variant is what i want to say. Thank you. Sorry my english. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212180414.GA12645@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Oleg: If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should use an another system, that meet your wishes? Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you want, within Debian. So what's the problem? Somebody will be forced to manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM). Who nows what will be in the future... Here some men talk about cost of simultaneous support of many init systems. So, in the future default init system may stay stable and working, but alternative ones no. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140212181314.GB12645@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:39:06AM +, Darac Marjal wrote: But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it. Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you Alsa is using the DMIX plugin for years, and before that I always had soundcards with hardware mixing. Simply buy the proper tools. the ability to stream your audio across the network? And if you don’t need these features? Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!) Most people simply want to play audio, no streaming, no stream moving, etc. I have a USB soundcard. If I power it on pulseaudio doesn’t recognize it or only the analog output (I want to use the digital output). I have to restart pulseaudio (even with the current version in Debian Testing). And now guess what is always working? Right, Alsa. If necessary it takes less than 10 seconds to reconfigure the sound device in the application. So why should I use pulseaudio? Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the most-featureful init system be the default, because then those features actually get used and tested -- and thus the situation will be more reliable than if only those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who actually _are_ desperate for its features (as opposed to, say, those who are skeptics but find that they won't want to miss those selfsame features once they get used to them …). Well, sounds like pulseaudio which got „forced” on the users and broke many setups to find bugs. Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:34:17PM +0100, Stephan Seitz wrote: Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers. This is assuming that either: 1) This is not going to be tested in Debian 2) systemd is not production quality I don't think 1 is fair, seeing as how quite a few DDs (who are OK with doing this change early and fine with being a beta tester, such as myself) have been testing it for a while. I also don't think 2 is fair, seeing as how it's enabled by default on Arch, Fedora, OpenSUSE, RHEL (7, before that is upstart), CoreOS and a few other derivitives (tanglu, siduction). Perhaps you're interested in helping beta test it in unstable to ensure your stable use-case works? (If not, that's cool too, just offering to offer.) Shade and sweet water! Ditto :) Stephan -T -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500 Paul Tagliamonte wrote: If they have decided on systemd as default [...] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html Can we please end this thread? Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up published before voting. Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give their primary reasons? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/384598.17177...@smtp111.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
TC position statements on init systems (was: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.)
Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk writes: Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up published before voting. Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give their primary reasons? Several of us posted position statements. Here are some links, although both Ian's and mine were in multiple parts, and this only links to one of them. Someone else might have a more thorough collection. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00067.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00261.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00310.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00358.html Thanks to /u/surrealize on Reddit for collecting the links in one place where I could find them when searching to see if someone else had done my work for me. :) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/871tz8167u.fsf...@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Mi, 12 feb 14, 19:02:00, Kevin Chadwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500 Paul Tagliamonte wrote: If they have decided on systemd as default [...] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html Can we please end this thread? Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up published before voting. Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give their primary reasons? Yes, as far as I recall all TC members have explained their reasoning quite thoroughly. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 2014-02-12, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500 Paul Tagliamonte wrote: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html Can we please end this thread? Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give their primary reasons? The link above does have a 'see link for discussion'. People have said why they have voted what they voted. Technical reasons seems to have been the primary driver behind it, though a bit 'how healthy does the project seem to be' has also been involved. Licensing was mentioned, but I don't have the impression that it was neither primary nor secondary concerns. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ldgidf$bub$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Kevin Chadwick: Can we please end this thread? Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up published before voting. The links to the proponents' position statements have been posted. Multiple times. IMHO all arguments therein were relevant for the TC members in some way or another. Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues Definitely not. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500 Paul Tagliamonte wrote: If they have decided on systemd as default [...] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html Can we please end this thread? Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up published before voting. Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give their primary reasons? Kevin, This is what I found. Hopefully it is useful. Russ' reasoning: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html Colin's reasoning: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html Ian's reasoning: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html Bdale's reasoning: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00067.html Digging through the mailing list archives to find the remaining CTTE member's reasoning is left as an exercise to the reader. :) -mz PS. I'm looking forward to this thread ending - sorry for adding to it! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caolfk3w2x+zz+o8ykfpif4d1vsvurl4dqyrndfzsaxkpyu7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:01 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what? I thought you were smarter and would understand you went too far and should stop. Though if the only way to stop your insults is to go to the DPL or the listmaster, I believe I wont even have to do it myself (I don't think I should anyway, since I'm involved): someone else will be upset by your wording in a public Debian list and will report you. yet you claim those are insults. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that saying that someone is derogative, arrogant, utterly annoying, hypocrite and dishonest is not insulting. Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. I have *no problem* with it, or anything else. I don't think I have lost anything, or that there's even a defeat. The above sentence is very silly, because it paints a very wrong picture of what happened. I accepted OpenRC wouldn't be taken as default even before it happened. If you think that's what I wrote, then you miss-interpreted. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html What lead me to write was that: - bdale wrote to me that he didn't evaluate OpenRC - Russ wrote wrong statements on public list or blogs (I can't remember which one it was, I believe it was his blog) - Don stated he didn't spent much time with it or something similar So, because this was a repeated pattern, I posted that message. I asked for the TC to properly evaluate OpenRC, and explain why it wouldn't be the choice. I was very pleased by Ian Jackson's technical response, which helps us for our (future) development. I don't see anything wrong in that, and I believe what I asked for was legitimate. Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how often I posted to debian-ctte. I tried to not post too much in this bug, and let the TC do its work. I posted 10 messages to #727708, out of which 5 were talking about the current status of OpenRC, which I believe was appreciated by the TC (at least bdale seemed happy of these messages). In these messages, I wasn't talking about anything else. I have counted around 43 messages from Josselin Mouette, why don't you complain about him posting too much? (note: I took Joss as a random example, and I have no problem with him posting on the TC bug...) Besides this, I'm the person behind the proposal of OpenRC, and there was some direct inquiries, so I don't think 10 messages is a lot. You can also see that Russ seemed happy about the corrections I contributed to his statements, since he didn't evaluate OpenRC properly either (at least at the beginning, not sure later on). Bdale also seemed pleased with the reported status about Hurd support and so on. Gosh, why do I even have to justify myself... This is crazy. Adrian, look at the posts from Olav Didier. I think they are representative of the fact that your personal attacks toward me, leading to what I wrote above, is of very little interest to anyone. Yet, if you are again repeating the same pattern, your next move will be: coming back after your insults, posting some more (why not, since the listmasters accepted the previous ones?), then more critics of what I do or did which will include wrong statement and reality distortion, and then writing hey, I already wrote that we should stop... it's not me who don't want to stop. That's not the way you get to a more relaxed atmosphere. Pushing me to justify myself on my behavior isn't the way to go either. If you are sending direct attacks publicly, don't you think it's to be expected that I reply to public accusations? I'm not asking you to stop discussing here, even about the init system. I've asked you to stop your insult and direct attacks toward me in public lists. This leads to nowhere, and annoys everyone. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fc69e6.2000...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 12:53 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-10 20:20:36 -0800: On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Do we allow users to choose their FireWire stack, WiFi or Audio Driver stack in the kernel? There were several alternative implementations of these, yet we only provide one of each. I don't see why we would explicitly forbid this choice (which has nothing to do with what we provide by default). Last time I checked, it was possible for our users to rebuild their own kernel. We even provide some userland tools for that. In the case of init system choice, having choice means having packages that work poorly with the non-default init system. Nobody wants to forbid OpenRC or Upstart. Having all four working init systems is a lot like having kFreeBSD and Hurd. However, the reason we can have kFreeBSD is basically POSIX. Some things don't work, but the majority of things do work. There is a long standing set of rules that things play by for the most part, and when they diverge, that is a choice they make. By and large these init systems work nothing like eachother. So having lots of them, means having lots of variation in init scripts, or having a lowest common denominator init format which AFAIK does not exist and would not achieve anything a switch away from sysvinit is intended to solve. So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files, and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out. Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain. You are talking as if we were starting from zero. Reality: all of our packages support both sysv-rc and OpenRC. We only have to maintain that, which is anyway important for our non-linux ports, and none of us have a crystal ball to predict how it will happen. I don't think it's a good idea to just give-up, or to spread the word that we should (give-up) before things even happen. The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default, will be quite different, since not all packages are supporting them directly right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of default init system. Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9d91e.8040...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Excerpts from Svante Signell's message of 2014-02-10 21:49:56 -0800: On Mon, 2014-02-10 at 20:53 -0800, Clint Byrum wrote: So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files, and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out. Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain. Why should OpenRC and Upstart adapt to a format that is not standardized in _any_ way? The format specification should be written by Debian people (including downstream), and be a common denominator for all init systems wanting to be compatible. The proposal could be based on the LSB headers, and a good extension to that has recently been proposed by the sysvinit maintainer: Two line init.d scripts https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00106.html Meh. Pick one. Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for convenience: #define _XOPEN_SOURCE 700 #include signal.h #include unistd.h int main() { sigset_t set; int status; if (getpid() != 1) return 1; sigfillset(set); sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, set, 0); if (fork()) for (;;) wait(status); sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, set, 0); setsid(); setpgid(0, 0); return execve(/etc/rc, (char *[]){ rc, 0 }, (char *[]){ 0 }); } Indeed, I have no problem with this approach and I'm not crazy about systemd's scope. But if the default ends up as systemd, it gets a bonus as the one to follow in the Linux world so IMO it is an easier choice to just use their syntax. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392105255-sup-5...@fewbar.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 03:09 AM, Vitaliy Filippov wrote: Excuse me, but this reply isn't appropriate, just as much as the OP. Redirecting him to another Unix distribution isn't the thing to do. Instead, you should have informed the OP that we will continue to support not only systemd, upstart, or whichever becomes the default. Because that's the plan. And nobody will force anyone to use the default settings, just like nobody is forced to use the default desktop. It seems that in case of systemd it may end being forced, doesn't Gnome 3 depend on it? We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM! :) I have another idea - maybe systemd could be split in parts in Debian? I think it would fix some objections. This has been discussed at large already. It would. But neither upstream nor the Debian package maintainers wish to have (or wish to do the work so that) systemd (is) split into relevant independent parts. This is a shame, because that's the most controversial issue, but that's a a view which can be defended: they believe in the current design, where each component is used by another. I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part of systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in HTTP server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even packaged separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is anyone familiar with systemd code - does it look possible and/or simple task to you? As much as I understood, systemd-journal is the part which is the most optional, and which you can avoid completely currently. Problem is: we have no idea how long this is going to be truth (as it happened with logind and other components). I don't think it is reasonable to expect Debian systemd maintainers will do the work of separating each components to make them independent. They haven't stated that this is what they want to do. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9dbb1.7000...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-11 00:02:38 -0800: On 02/11/2014 12:53 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-10 20:20:36 -0800: On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Do we allow users to choose their FireWire stack, WiFi or Audio Driver stack in the kernel? There were several alternative implementations of these, yet we only provide one of each. I don't see why we would explicitly forbid this choice (which has nothing to do with what we provide by default). Last time I checked, it was possible for our users to rebuild their own kernel. We even provide some userland tools for that. In the case of init system choice, having choice means having packages that work poorly with the non-default init system. Nobody wants to forbid OpenRC or Upstart. Having all four working init systems is a lot like having kFreeBSD and Hurd. However, the reason we can have kFreeBSD is basically POSIX. Some things don't work, but the majority of things do work. There is a long standing set of rules that things play by for the most part, and when they diverge, that is a choice they make. By and large these init systems work nothing like eachother. So having lots of them, means having lots of variation in init scripts, or having a lowest common denominator init format which AFAIK does not exist and would not achieve anything a switch away from sysvinit is intended to solve. So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files, and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out. Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain. You are talking as if we were starting from zero. Reality: all of our packages support both sysv-rc and OpenRC. We only have to maintain that, which is anyway important for our non-linux ports, and none of us have a crystal ball to predict how it will happen. I don't think it's a good idea to just give-up, or to spread the word that we should (give-up) before things even happen. One point of moving to a system like upstart or systemd is that the sysvinit scripts do not run as scripts. They are little tiny declarative files that run all or most in C. This speeds up boot, but only makes sense if all of the early stage boot things make use of it. Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd. So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing. Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392107208-sup-...@fewbar.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM! No problem, I never actually used Gnome3, because I dislike it even more than systemd... I only tried it several times... :) I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part of systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in HTTP server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even packaged separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is anyone familiar with systemd code - does it look possible and/or simple task to you? As much as I understood, systemd-journal is the part which is the most optional, and which you can avoid completely currently. Problem is: we have no idea how long this is going to be truth (as it happened with logind and other components). Maybe it's optional, but there's no option to disable it currently. You can only configure it to not store logs and send them to syslog - so it will be still running. I don't think it is reasonable to expect Debian systemd maintainers will do the work of separating each components to make them independent. They haven't stated that this is what they want to do. I think Debian project is significant enough to have some influence on systemd development, i.e. at least send patches, and in this case Debian won't end up using any non-standard version. This can also reduce the risk of vendor-lock, because the speed Lennart adds features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next. And everyone will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if Debian project won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I call vendor-lock :) As I understand systemd has relatively active community with many developers from different distros (am I right?) so it should be no problem for Debian developers to also join it. I mean that Debian systemd maintainers could try to untangle that ball of current design, where each component is used by another and even try to upstream this work! :) ...and it really seems like a good decision to me, because it would really fix some of its problems and make systemd-haters feel better... :) -- With best regards, Vitaliy Filippov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.xa3z7njo0ncgu9@vitalif.vhome
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Ma, 11 feb 14, 00:31:18, Clint Byrum wrote: Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd. So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing. Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile. According to Russ Allbery, it's easier to maintain both systemd and upstart declarations than one sysv init script. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Ma, 11 feb 14, 06:49:56, Svante Signell wrote: On Mon, 2014-02-10 at 20:53 -0800, Clint Byrum wrote: So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files, and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out. Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain. Why should OpenRC and Upstart adapt to a format that is not standardized in _any_ way? The format specification should be written by Debian people (including downstream), and be a common denominator for all init systems wanting to be compatible. And the obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: don't panic - rejoice: jessie will be awesome and supporting lots of inits! (was: Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Le lundi 10 février 2014 à 22:13 +0100, Holger Levsen a écrit : And probably jessie should come with a slogan once again: Debian - there can be more than one init system - or something like this :) Supporting multiple init systems is the least relevant thing to do, since it multiplies the work to be done. http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/ -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392109535.18551.1433.camel@dsp0698014
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:49:56AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for convenience: I like how people copy/paste blog articles. Did you read this article? It completely lacks detail and where it does, it is conflicting with itself. E.g. Reboot to Upgrade, while a bit later: systemd's systemctl has a daemon-reexec command to make systemd serialize its state, re-exec itself. Meaning: reboot to upgrade is not needed, answer is given in the same text. The objections to daemon-reexec are vague. It's nice to copy/paste this blog, but moving all functionality from pid1 and putting them in pid2 is cool. But you're still totally relying on everything in pid2, so same difference. It pretends to be technical, but the technical bits it does discuss are conflicting. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211090835.ga24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:09:10PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote: I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part of systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in HTTP server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even packaged separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is anyone familiar with systemd code - does it look possible and/or simple task to you? QR codes is optional Built-in HTTP server is optional Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging functionality in a program which is meant to log things is a bit much. You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it / UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211091356.gb24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51:13PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote: I think Debian project is significant enough to have some influence on systemd development, i.e. at least send patches, and in this case - Debian has sent patches upstream - Mageia is *much* smaller distribution, that packager has attended *various* systemd hackfests - Mageia package maintainer sent various patches upstream - Patches are *not* accepted based on how many people you represent or which company you work for (e.g. some Red Hat dude got a no during hackfest before FOSDEM) Debian won't end up using any non-standard version. This can also reduce the risk of vendor-lock, because the speed Lennart adds features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next. And everyone will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if Debian project won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I call vendor-lock :) Features are discussed beforehand at loads of conferences. I think resorting to Windows registry to make a point says enough. The project is under active development, that's is a good thing. If you have needs, make them known. Be positive, not distrustful and you'll go a long way. As I understand systemd has relatively active community with many developers from different distros (am I right?) so it should be no problem for Debian developers to also join it. AFAIK people are already active. I mean that Debian systemd maintainers could try to untangle that ball of current design, where each component is used by another and even try to upstream this work! :) This is all very vague and non specific. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211092139.gc24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 05:20 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: It's like being able to customize internal parts of your cars engine when ordering one from your dealer. Customers don't care who the manufacturer of your ignition system is as long it's the best possible one. (Yes, I know comparisons with cars are bad ;)). That's partly not truth. Some customers care, and do customization of their car. No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal parts like the ignition system or starter motor. Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own, you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty. And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you will lose support. A very reasonable approach in my opinion as you weigh the cost of maintenance vs. advantage of being able to choose. Neglecting reliability and maintainability for the sake of being able to choose such a core component is a bad idea. I do not think it's really feasible to maintain several init systems, it just affects too many components of the system. It's just up to the volunteers, which was my message. If some of us car, it's going to be possible. If there's not enough interest, then you are right. And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down. Do you really think this is a desirable situation for our users? I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands and say Yes Thomas, I am going to help you! All I read are statements from you like Yes, it would work in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have the time right now unfortunately. See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian. Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning we have lost lots of development manpower. Thus, I fully agree that m68k has been abandoned as a release architecture long time ago. It's nice that it's there, but there isn't any official support and the rest of Debian shouldn't have to worry about it. We don't even manage to maintain two versions of ffmpeg (the original and the fork) even though many users actually prefer the original. How should this even work with the init system then? Maybe no DD cares enough for ffmpeg? No, it's because it's not possible to have libav and ffmpeg packaged at the same time due to conflicting so names and the fact that reverse dependencies would have to be taken care of as well. On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Again, I do not understand how our users will actually profit from being able to choose their init system. It doesn't mater, we don't force our thinking on you. Nor it's a good idea that you try to convince everyone that they should adopt *your* choice. I believe there's been enough discussion so that you will agree not everyone shares your view on systemd. I don't see it as a problem anymore. It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other of the large distributions has adopted systemd. Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few supporters in the development community means that if any of the OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will lose much more development manpower than systemd does. Can you imagine this being an option in Debian Installer just like you can configure your time zone or filesystems? What would you write to the description texts of the different choices? Ubuntu users have a choice of installer: the Debian one and the standard Ubuntu one. I don't use the standard Ubuntu installer, though I have no pb with others using it. That's not what I said. I asked whether it's possible to choose the init system in the installer and it's not possible in either the Ubuntu or Debian installer. It's crazy just to think about it. I don't see any craziness, it's just like all of Debian: volunteer based, and depending on everyone's motivation and involvement. And that's the exact problem with OpenRC and Upstart - besides the technical side - there are just a handful of volunteers in the whole Linux community while systemd has a very large community meaning even if any of their main developers decide to step back at some point,
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 09:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default, will be quite different, since not all packages are supporting them directly right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of default init system. What? That's not true. As people have explained here before - even directly to you - both Upstart and systemd have perfect backwards compatibility with sysvinit scripts. And at least for systemd, you can simply install the package and start using it with init=/bin/systemd from the next reboot on. No further changes are necessary and everything works right out-of-the-box. And if you want to go back to sysvinit, just remove the init line from the kernel command line and uninstall the systemd package. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9edf8.5020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 09:13 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: It seems that in case of systemd it may end being forced, doesn't Gnome 3 depend on it? We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM! :) Window managers are leaf packages, at least they should be. If awesome or fvwm are broken, other window managers or desktops won't be affected at all. If you are running into problems with your init system, you are risking to affect hundreds of other packages. Core components like init should be carefully chosen and maintained to be able to guarantee a stable environment. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9eee8.4050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:08 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:49:56AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for convenience: I like how people copy/paste blog articles. Did you read this article? Of course I've read it. It completely lacks detail and where it does, it is conflicting with itself. E.g. Reboot to Upgrade, while a bit later: systemd's systemctl has a daemon-reexec command to make systemd serialize its state, re-exec itself. Meaning: reboot to upgrade is not needed, answer is given in the same text. The objections to daemon-reexec are vague. I'll do some more reading on daemon-rexec before saying more. But: Don't you se the the current development is heading towards a Windows locked-in situation, and a reboot is necessary for every upgrade? kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the list here) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392112663.18980.46.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:27 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian. Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning we have lost lots of development manpower. All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products when seniors retire and juniors replace them? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392112995.18980.50.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 11:03 AM, Svante Signell wrote: On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:27 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian. Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning we have lost lots of development manpower. All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products when seniors retire and juniors replace them? Sure, they are replaceable. However, it's sometimes simply not possible to find someone who has both the necessary expertise and is willing to help. And this is why this needs to be factored in the decision making process. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9fc3c.9050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 11/02/14 10:57, Svante Signell wrote: kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the list here) I fail to see what your point is here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52f9ffb7.2040...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
- Debian has sent patches upstream - Mageia is *much* smaller distribution, that packager has attended *various* systemd hackfests - Mageia package maintainer sent various patches upstream - Patches are *not* accepted based on how many people you represent or which company you work for (e.g. some Red Hat dude got a no during hackfest before FOSDEM) Glad to hear that! :) QR codes is optional Built-in HTTP server is optional Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging functionality in a program which is meant to log things is a bit much. It's not just calling logging functionality, it's running an own logging daemon that supports a lot of other things. calling logging functionality is syslog(3) or maybe even printf(3) :))) and it should be enough for software that just logs stuff. :) You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it / UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer. Of course it has side effects! That's why people call it monolithic and that's why it needs some decoupling. Do you agree that a modular program is generally better than a non-modular one? And yes, I can't say how much I don't like Windows-like ideas of binary logs / binary configs / unified registry and etc. Yeah, yeah, I know there are no binary configs in systemd, that's just an example. :) And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not just do it?... I'm not familiar with systemd code, but since it seems Debian faces systemd becoming the default, I even want to try to make journal optional by myself... :) the downside is that I don't know if systemd developers will like it at all. :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7d88a7a010afdbb7ce8132d639bda...@yourcmc.ru
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 11:47 +0100, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote: On 11/02/14 10:57, Svante Signell wrote: kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the list here) I fail to see what your point is here. systemd dependencies of course, the vendor lock-in strategy is successful: (the packages below are all from the source systemd) build-rdeps libsystemd-login-dev colord gnome-packagekit gnome-disk-utility pulseaudio dbus accountsservice weston gvfs packagekit build-rdeps libgudev-1.0-dev umockdev entangle gnomad2 shotwell gst-plugins-good1.0 udisks2 indicator-session update-notifier webkitgtk rhythmbox libgusb gst-plugins-bad1.0 network-manager-applet gimp gnome-settings-daemon thunar gammu upower modemmanager thunar-volman udisks cheese gnome-dvb-daemon handbrake gst-plugins-good0.10 xfburn gst-plugins-base1.0 gnome-boxes buzztard python-gudev gxine network-manager gvfs simple-scan empathy gudev-sharp-1.0 libmbim libwacom colord spice-gtk cinnamon gst-plugins-base0.10 build-rdeps libsystemd-journal-dev == packagekit realmd dbus build-rdeps libudev-dev === libvirt mountall upstart xserver-xorg-input-evdev qwbfsmanager libdrm hplip libsdl2 udisks mesa pulseaudio vlc tcplay cgminer media-ctl libusbx gqrx-sdr multipath-tools xserver-xorg-video-ati bfgminer libsigrok udevil libldm qthid-fcd-controller connman consolekit qtmobility simpleburn spacefm bluez xboxdrv libopenusb ofono qextserialport xserver-xorg-video-nouveau umockdev qtserialport-opensource-src weston urfkill olpc-kbdshim xserver-xorg-video-intel flightgear xorg-server xserver-xorg-video-modesetting gvfs xwiimote xf86-input-wacom libatasmart petitboot xf86-video-omap system-config-printer chromium-browser razorqt libcec higan pcsc-lite pyqt5 enna guvcview kde4libs linphone xbmc kde-workspace lvm2 network-manager qtbase-opensource-src pyudev Do you want more examples? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392117503.18980.60.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you will lose support. [ Below all not directed to John, just additional comments ] If suddenly OpenRC (or whatever) gets loads and loads of contributors, gets lots of init scripts, solves/provides an logind alternative and does whatever to improve then it should be supported. However, the support should come from the OpenRC team / interested people. You cannot assign :-P IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is too much blocking progress going on IMO (but then against anything other than sysvinit). -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014022358.gd24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:02:13PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: QR codes is optional Built-in HTTP server is optional Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging functionality in a program which is meant to log things is a bit much. It's not just calling logging functionality, it's running an own logging daemon that supports a lot of other things. calling logging functionality is syslog(3) or maybe even printf(3) :))) and it should be enough for software that just logs stuff. :) But all those other things are optional. You mention e.g. maybe even printf(3): Loads of desktop software prints error output. Which is then pretty hidden from any user. Unless you know about ~/.xsession-errors and the various other files. The journal allows (with some work) to log this output and identify which application generated those messages and do this quickly. This across desktops, without duplicating code across desktops. So you could have a GUI which shows you the warnings/errors/etc of Firefox / Iceweasel. Without having to know what firefox-bin and so on means. You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it / UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer. Of course it has side effects! That's why people call it monolithic and that's why it needs some decoupling. Do you agree that a modular program is generally better than a non-modular one? That's very vague statement to make. It is never modular is better or worse than non-modular. E.g. Linux kernel is monolithic, micro kernel might be more modular. Practically: Linux has modules. Other example: $ wget http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/amd64/coreutils/filelist -O- | grep bin -c 102 This coreutils package has 102 binaries. Is it modular? According to you, no! Try splitting this up into subpackages. What is the gain? And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not just do it?... People will not like and complain no matter. It is better to make informed judgements than to respond purely on emotional responses. Making a journal optional has a tradeoff. It's not free. Try splitting coreutils up into 5 separate subpackages to get an impression of such tradeoffs. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014023543.ge24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Svante Signell: But: Don't you se the the current development is heading towards a Windows locked-in situation, and a reboot is necessary for every upgrade? How so? You can upgrade systemd. (SysVinit doesn't have any features beyond re-reading /etc/inittab you might want to upgrade _for_ …) kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the list here) kdbus is a kernel module, you don't upgrade that without upgrading the kernel. I see no good solution to do a non-reboot kernel upgrade any time soon; if you do need that, process migration works these days, so put a second box beside the original one which takes over temporarily. You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio, which cannot be avoided. Presumably it'll never be possible to seamlessly re-exec Wayland, but then that was never possible with X11, so what exactly are you complaining about? You can restart udev. No problem. So can network-manager; not quite as seamlessly, but then your network connections should tolerate a few seconds of outage; if they don't don't use NM. So if that's your biggest argument against systemd, I guess you'll have no problem when Debian switches to it. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Svante Signell: All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products when seniors retire and juniors replace them? A company can tell its workers now you either do that or we won't pay you and your family won't eat. (And even then, people you can reasonably tell that to might not be available.) Debian cannot. We'd end up with another ConsoleKit situation – unmaintained, needs work, plus there's something better available right now, so why would anybody bother … Any other not-well-thought-out arguments? -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:18:23PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: systemd dependencies of course, the vendor lock-in strategy is successful: (the packages below are all from the source systemd) [..] Do you want more examples? You skipped over the bit explaining: - where the vendor lock in is? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in and e.g. Microsoft software carries a high level of vendor lock-in, based on its extensive set of proprietary APIs and how this relates to your list - how systemd is driving this possibility (aka the forcing) vs developers just making their lives easier -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014024046.gf24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 12:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you will lose support. [ Below all not directed to John, just additional comments ] The name's Adrian :). If suddenly OpenRC (or whatever) gets loads and loads of contributors, gets lots of init scripts, solves/provides an logind alternative and does whatever to improve then it should be supported. However, the support should come from the OpenRC team / interested people. You cannot assign :-P Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow. The current situation is that OpenRC has little adoption and a very small development team while systemd is quite the opposite on both terms. And this is an important fact you cannot ignore. IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is too much blocking progress going on IMO (but then against anything other than sysvinit). I agree. In any case, the OpenRC supporters should understand that their system isn't high priority just as the m68k port isn't high priority meaning I am not going to block you from doing your own thing, but don't expect me to invest lots of time and efforts into it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa13d0.7010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio, You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon as pulse is running again right? -- Salvo Tomaselli Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno. -- Galileo Galilei http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2529929.PhjoMSv4SL@vulcano
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, vita...@yourcmc.ru: And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not just do it?... Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people didn't just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because they perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see the stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with systemctl status is a whole damn lot better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able to reproduce the problem that caused it to die. You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a separate binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why would you even want to ..? -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, Salvo Tomaselli: You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio, You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon as pulse is running again right? Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's. If yours doesn't, file a bug. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 02/11/2014 04:21 AM, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51:13PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote: This can also reduce the risk of vendor-lock, because the speed Lennart adds features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next. And everyone will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if Debian project won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I call vendor-lock :) Features are discussed beforehand at loads of conferences. I think resorting to Windows registry to make a point says enough. The project is under active development, that's is a good thing. If you have needs, make them known. Be positive, not distrustful and you'll go a long way. I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point. I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no regret or repentance over having done so. I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project. I've seen the same thing with Microsoft. I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue to be - something *I* would consider good. As such, advice to not be distrustful seems to me to be lacking an essential foundation. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+i48AAoJEASpNY00KDJryhMP/09fQu7JS9tpmGxgI247rBGI xPcgiunZ0tllSe/ltTaQaiZCY6BJP/tWwSUdudjIrFMH+ffdKtiGtuc/ZpCxuqTQ dsqFIoGeEz0dfHAj8Duiaz5S8ouITZofHbpbCuk+8Fu1kxtUWrkyqBEIJvOJE00v b0YkBBYjWpR96P5Gri5LAHSUki4m37osMub/+YCj3uV6dr5U4rDR4Vqo/488ejuM yPfOo4qf4SeVrp0VDl8vt9lGBTmpEOqESmD7XyFO5PSfMWvnWtgUfZuTeCd2Xylj uRIStMqYMH7e+tzn49CXL6r5UJSKYxl00PNDvd2GXSSJsUbN1GRHMilt2L0s85Ka HSHjF3p3+wePXDs0X5rFGIvjNpHdwgVCaQTTe0j48FXypjyXCUSrAUnhMVH69FmA kNu8JMIE9QyISQlL5jjL2yVA3QGw38s/g7+b50M89tALxb3CWp0ZhIihQ+mMJIvt ptq+8uJK8ZpctoqJlamaTyzx6mMKkc687Sem0emL4M7cIiS9HyJhhTv3Q6A8OlRv Oag5ehnHuOvqjNEMdCsKG2Gpctu7fyMDxnq67mkzAGw2vjf+n7TTDWl31JGZeIkg nDC9KTrdaxqG0AcLdpy7y2y2DWNFKQjS2dUNUf76/uocMo9cnW6gG5SVYl/ucIfa u01rGm3PEzF+OujvQrXq =H81w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa2e3c.2030...@fastmail.fm
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd funs simply shout louder than others. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211140639.GB14055@localhost
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people didn't just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because they perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see the stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with systemctl status is a whole damn lot better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able to reproduce the problem that caused it to die. You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a separate binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why would you even want to ..? Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary. And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the stderr capture. -- With best regards, Vitaliy Filippov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e2da4a65eec4579296f20f4cb4037...@yourcmc.ru
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad bug! Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's. If yours doesn't, file a bug. -- Salvo Tomaselli Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno. -- Galileo Galilei http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4286868.atK1gMq04I@vulcano
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:06:39PM +0400, Oleg wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd funs simply shout louder than others. There are various technical reasons to choose systemd. Various developers have chosen for this. It is not something you can gloss over like e.g. the colour of a bikeshed. There are technical reasons behind why projects are relying on the additional value it provides. It's quite sad to be summarized as someone who simply shouts louder. :-( Shouting is not how logind (optional) dependency was decided upon! -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211145208.gg24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the stderr capture. It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing. The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How silly of them all. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392130843.18551.1446.camel@dsp0698014
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Feb 11, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru wrote: What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd funs simply shout louder than others. systemd is used as the default init system in: - Fedora - Arch Linux - Mageia - openSUSE - SLES (upcoming) - RHEL7 - Frugalware - (see Wikipedia) Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms. The reason why you perceive the systemd opponents as being the majority than the supporters lies in the fact that the former are more vocal. It's also usually comes from people who are running or affiliated with Gentoo or Ubuntu. The rest of the community already made up their minds. What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects. Adrian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/af16d566-82f2-4f8d-be34-564a6adad...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 15:47 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects. I'm pretty sure there are _many_ Debian users and developers among the people not being happy with the way things are heading :-( Make your voices heard! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392131591.18980.101.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:05:48AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point. I don't think so. I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no regret or repentance over having done so. You're talking about yourself and none of what you say contains specifics. What bad and insane things have systemd done? It seems to be that you're ignoring that they attend almost every conference out there, discuss everything up front and hold loads and loads of presentations where they specifically ask for feedback. Saying I do not trust: I think you have a level of expectation for systemd that is at a completely different level than any other project. I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project. I've seen the same thing with Microsoft. I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue to be - something *I* would consider good. You are not specific. Systemd is GPL. You can fork it, you can change it, there is no CLA. What do you mean?!? There are no specifics at all in most of the objections. Only a bunch of I don't like it, while if you look at it objectively, it seems that the bar is different for systemd than it is for something such as coreutils. As such, advice to not be distrustful seems to me to be lacking an essential foundation. You're turning things around. I'm being specific and giving examples. Your answer is: but I don't trust them. Ok, whatever, I concluded that already. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211151508.gh24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad bug! As mentioned before: File a bug. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211151850.gj24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:30:24PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary. Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog. And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the stderr capture. Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon. Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various properties with each message. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211151801.gi24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 04:31 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: One point of moving to a system like upstart or systemd is that the sysvinit scripts do not run as scripts. They are little tiny declarative files that run all or most in C. This speeds up boot, but only makes sense if all of the early stage boot things make use of it. Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd. I agree with the above. So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing. Yes, that's my proposal, and as well deprecate sysv-rc in the favor of OpenRC, and allow OpenRC runscript files *only* if there's support for the default init system (because this way the default init system will not use them, so the runscript format is possible). Yes, testing and maintenance will be double the amount of work, which is why I wrote that it will all depend on contributions. I didn't write support for it would be mandatory, but on best effort basis, which I think is fair. Also, that will enable support for our non-linux ports. Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile. That's what I believe, yes. On 02/11/2014 05:03 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: According to Russ Allbery, it's easier to maintain both systemd and upstart declarations than one sysv init script. s/sysv init/sysv-rc/ --- Please don't do this mistake, it's really sysv-rc that uses the init scripts, and OpenRC, which has a declarative format, still uses sysvinit. Anyway, to some degree, I agree with Russ here, which is why I think we should replace sysv-rc by OpenRC completely at some point (which is when we have stabilized support for *all* arch, which isn't the case right now, latest Hurd patches broke support for kFreeBSD). On 02/11/2014 05:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: On 02/11/2014 09:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default, will be quite different, since not all packages are supporting them directly right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of default init system. What? That's not true. As people have explained here before - even directly to you - both Upstart and systemd have perfect backwards compatibility with sysvinit scripts. You missed one very important word: *directly*. Probably I should have write *natively*. Sorry for this. On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal parts like the ignition system or starter motor. Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own, you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty. The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers than with cars. On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down. That's truth for every bit of Debian, however, package gets orphaned, adopted, etc. Please don't through this type of argument, especially when we have co-maintainers already. On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands and say Yes Thomas, I am going to help you! Yet, it happened. Not in this list though... On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: All I read are statements from you like Yes, it would work in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have the time right now unfortunately. Please read the debian/changelog of OpenRC in Experimental, and measure the work that has been done so far. I don't think this counts for nothing, and I really see progress. Hurd kFreeBSD support, and lsb2rcconf comes to mind. Plus this doesn't include all what has been done before the package entered Debian. It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other of the large distributions has adopted systemd. Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few supporters in the development community means that if any of the OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will lose much more development manpower than systemd does.
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing. The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How silly of them all. 1) If you really need a binary index, it could be initially put in a separate file. 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log file and just tail it. 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print full output of a service since last start - you can remember the previous log position in the service state structure. 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree) implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans to print logs for a service - am I correct? 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it won't be really slower because of (4). DBMS is an incorrect example because DBMS is originally _meant_ to store and query structured data in different formats. -- With best regards, Vitaliy Filippov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/6e0bd604d79e10a06ca5d08631300...@yourcmc.ru
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 07:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote: IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is too much blocking progress going on IMO Yes, I agree with what's above. On 02/11/2014 08:13 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow. Chances to win the lottery are 1 against 14 000 000 (at least in my country). Claiming this kind of odds for supporting OpenRC is IMO an overstatement, especially considering that we have LSB header scripts for *all* of our packages right now. Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa49b2.5020...@debian.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary. Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog. I dislike the idea of binary logs so much that I want to really and totally disable journal. And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the stderr capture. Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon. Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various properties with each message. No problem: one regexp, one more regexp, one more regexp. And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate file. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8c169d969d7e2f5b4d52aee88f20...@yourcmc.ru
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Excerpts from Josselin Mouette's message of 2014-02-11 07:00:43 -0800: Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the stderr capture. It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing. The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How silly of them all. And how silly of all other tool makers to create full text binary search indexes from text logs, giving simplicity with efficiency at the same time. The real heroes got rid of that scourge, the text logs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392135574-sup-3...@fewbar.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:57:18PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log file and just tail it. Now show everything of a particular user. Systemd allows you to do this quickly (barring some performance bugs). 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print full output of a service since last start - you can remember the previous log position in the service state structure. Then you also need to handle logrotate. 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree) implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans to print logs for a service - am I correct? You're not. 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it won't be really slower because of (4). A regexp is unreliable and slow. Lots of ssh blocking tools have had various security issues due to this. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211163234.gk24...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
2014-02-11 17:03 GMT+01:00 vita...@yourcmc.ru: [...] And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate file. Guess what journald is doing ;-) And if the journal is not running in persistent mode, this extra logfile only exists temporarily and everything is forwarded to rsyslog, so you gat your syslog-textfile (but with much more structured content) First try the software, then complain. Complaining about something you never tried and/or don't know about doesn't make any sense. Cheers, Matthias -- Debian Developer | Freedesktop-Developer I welcome VSRE emails. See http://vsre.info/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKNHny9mx2ggVMepf0eADjtP=wqdjkmvoo3dcas1j+wjpdg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi, vita...@yourcmc.ru: Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary. Why? (Seriously.) -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
vita...@yourcmc.ru writes: It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing. The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How silly of them all. 1) If you really need a binary index, it could be initially put in a separate file. 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log file and just tail it. 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print full output of a service since last start - you can remember the previous log position in the service state structure. 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree) implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans to print logs for a service - am I correct? 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it won't be really slower because of (4). Here's a challenge then: Implement everything the journal does, without using a binary format, and show us it's not only doable, but performs similarly. I would first recommend you read up - and try! - what the journal has to offer. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87a9dxtxpf.fsf@algernon.balabit
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/11/2014 17:03, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon. Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various properties with each message. No problem: one regexp, one more regexp, one more regexp. http://xkcd.com/1171/ Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa5163.8020...@43-1.org
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 02/11/2014 11:26 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, vita...@yourcmc.ru: Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary. Why? (Seriously.) In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at a glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning specialized tool for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it, text streams ... [are] a universal interface. Also because when writing a parser, it's easier to determine the format (in terms of meaning and start/stop of each field) of a text file than it is of a binary one, when working without known-reliable documentation. (And I'm not willing to assume that I'll always have such documentation.) There's a *reason* the vast majority of kernel userspace-interface files are in plain-text form, after all. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+lgYAAoJEASpNY00KDJrKekP/2kuE1RegQe0zhC9qpI3keaa +P1Pghdup+U9BhwQptN046sOCS2Ku8nMf+2vvkO4gNlUprPPuU6szUsj3e9ya+zt t5BnvcAWOx4QDM09AHP4d2Pi42dOf1ZPzKLwIrgIjPaxg1wRZNuOyo3ihMgZLs5Z 6J9JG6bBvfDnED2x1FGB9MTF2rQMLiD0YkcQ6qQzo/iFFuC6UsdjVpc8mXvjhMh5 0vxkp3345ZAi+DRqkRb4kljJIuDcjPZKlpdoSENFC6W2flqt3GRqeKuc5FyGaE4Q l2SmhXoqNIQ285eTie8seHONBjITtXcHphOTS/36zpLrsBjbzOYjBloNrALJoxHC xCjyXwKzRnj19rbECzBRiv65R7OsubqI0int1luN0Y/RgJcwTIWowI57s6eJ+Wlv JkX+57Ex8saUIvf/Z+xr655lupy1blCJgMK04vUbPHrdr+Ds+avsTJWNxofXC7ot Sox1s6iZsAqSfg1BXkSCc1+iSF3QaDuNmawBW6Klua6Wz2W4YdLGVglI+T0202BB jRs6n+wuK6pdsmKi4ZccyBygIuvaBzMj9pXaKkVdftDZ3jz9L/3FrzR0kk8pI+8K INxfh7lykqf0jx9tHXyOHK3yZQ17G9uOzhIk5DJT1h4Rc4dfkoQBAQ+F2M+gtOIk aX6/TvXkH5VFZiuMC4k7 =oxjb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa5818.6070...@fastmail.fm