[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
I agree with you. I don't see any merit in doing on the amateur bands what can be done on commercial frequencies. Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way. Being able to call someone whereever they are by keying their call into your radio is not what ham radio is about, in my view. I already have a radio that can reach people wherever they are. It's called a cellphone. I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. RF is being reduced to a means of connecting someone to a network that guarantees reliable communication. That isn't what attracted me into this hobby 40 years ago. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :) Julian, G4ILO --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, af6it af...@... wrote: A perhaps narrow outsider's opinion: There is potential here for both good and for wreaking havoc with fellow users of VHF/UHF amateur bands given a paradigm shift into a G3 digital era. Improving upon packet's abilities could be a very good thing- particularly for those involved in EmComm. But running analog FM users away just because commercial gov't users have had the change to digital crammed down their throat would be a very bad idea. If it can peacefully co-exist with current users- then no problem! As a potential user I confess that I'm not terribly interested in digital modes up here. Adding more specialized equipment has no appeal nor any advantage to my operating style. HF digital is much more exciting useful to me. (YMMV) My greatest fear is that someone in an urban upper 5% utilization zone might find a listening ear in the FCC who would recklessly force a draconian change to make us all go 100% digital VHF above- even for the 95% who have no trouble finding available analog freq's. This is ham radio after all- not hard core government EmComm! (Which is I suppose STILL waiting to see how beneficial the move will prove to be for them) One other comment: Tactical ham frequencies??!!! What in the world??? For ham SWAT teams? LOL Didn't Indianapolis PD get into trouble for less than that? :-) 73 de Stu AF6IT
RE: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
D-Star repeaters provide much better coverage due to the codec (I base this on one test made which was most impressive). As for technology - this is part of the Education benefits in Amateur Radio, my interest in radio resulted in a degree in electronics mathematics. I listen almost all day while working on technology. Anyone can pick up a microphone and talk - so why not go 'down the pub' instead? Some believe that Radio Hams should be banned from all emergency situations in the UK. In countries with a much larger land mass such as the US it's arguable a different matter but for European countries with a good telecoms infrastructure? Simon Brown, HB9DRV http://sdr-radio.com -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of g4ilo Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :)
[digitalradio] Illinois D-STAR Net, 4/21/2010, 9:00 pm
Reminder from: digitalradio Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/cal Illinois D-STAR Net Wednesday April 21, 2010 9:00 pm - 10:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: Illinois D-STAR Reflector Channel REF001B Notes: Illinois D-STAR Repeaters can Participate in the Illinois D-STAR Net by Connecting to Illinois D-STAR Reflector Channel REF001B. DV Dongle Users Can Participate in the Illinois D-STAR Net by Connecting to Reflector Channel REF001B or to a D-STAR Repeater Connected to Reflector Channel REF001B. All Rights Reserved Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[digitalradio] Mini Keyboard for desk [1 Attachment]
If you need more space in your desk, try the Mini keyboard and for $7.98 is more better. 73' Wilfredo Junior Aviles / KP4ARN Amateur Radio is the best way to know People and Travel around the World, FREE
Re: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
Simon, Interesting comment about EmComm in the UK. I live in an eathquake-prone area. We assume the telecoms infrastructure will be down for days or weeks, depending on severity. Hurricane Katrina showed other weather problems can take out the telecoms and power infrastructure for a long time. So EmComm experts here build up the ability to get back on the air without infrastructure. The DStar network, in my opinion should not be a primary part of the EmComm plan, but local unconnected repeaters running on emergency generators could help using DStar apps like DRats for accurate written forms over the radio. Presumably the command center would also have long distance RF links on traditional HF. Hams involvement in EmComm provides another huge resource -- trained people. If public service employees can't get to their work during a disaster, there will probably be some nearby, trained Hams available. The fact that they come with their own radios is a bonus. Responding to Julian G4ILO, I am old enough to remember the AMers complain about the terrible squawk from the new-fangled SSB. But the new technology (wasn't actually new, but new to many Hams in the late 50s) brought in new Hams, increased excitement, homebrewing, experimentation and fun. I see much of the same going on in the DStar community. Now that non-ICOM gear is getting on the air, a few Hams are homebrewing hardware and more are homebrewing software. There's a lot of excitement in this space now. Yes, it is a mixture of VOIP with RF technologies, and in normal times a cell phone would do the same thing, but that statement is true of traditional HF modes -- Hams worldwide could hang up their gear and go to telephones and the internet if simple communicating were the goal. I personally love to sit out in a field doing PSK31 with my NUE-PSK modem and an FT-817ND, both battery-operated, using a portable vertical that goes up in 3 minutes. No infrastructure at all, other than how the battery gets recharged every other day. Some portable solar panels would fix that. I don't get the same thrill using my cellphone or internet email. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Simon HB9DRV To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 12:54 AM Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio D-Star repeaters provide much better coverage due to the codec (I base this on one test made which was most impressive). As for technology - this is part of the Education benefits in Amateur Radio, my interest in radio resulted in a degree in electronics mathematics. I listen almost all day while working on technology. Anyone can pick up a microphone and talk - so why not go 'down the pub' instead? Some believe that Radio Hams should be banned from all emergency situations in the UK. In countries with a much larger land mass such as the US it's arguable a different matter but for European countries with a good telecoms infrastructure? Simon Brown, HB9DRV http://sdr-radio.com -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of g4ilo Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :)
Re: [digitalradio] 4M200AJ
On 20-Apr-10 23:04, Francesco Piccone wrote: QSO,, con la 4M2OOAJ en MFSK 16 modalidad ROS ,banda de 40 Metros ,Frecuencia 7.050.00 Khz 30 wts tx. antenna Windom Short ,en commemoracion del Bicentenario de la Independencia de Venezuela ,Special Call 73 Francesco YV4GJN QTR? USB? LSB?
Re: [digitalradio] 4M200AJ
USB 73 - Original Message - From: enki...@gmail.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] 4M200AJ On 20-Apr-10 23:04, Francesco Piccone wrote: QSO,, con la 4M2OOAJ en MFSK 16 modalidad ROS ,banda de 40 Metros ,Frecuencia 7.050.00 Khz 30 wts tx. antenna Windom Short ,en commemoracion del Bicentenario de la Independencia de Venezuela ,Special Call 73 Francesco YV4GJN QTR? USB? LSB?
Re: [digitalradio] VHF / UHF Digital Beyond line-of-sight [5 Attachments]
On 4/20/2010 3:32 AM, KH6TY wrote: Hi Tony, When both stations are within the same ducting level, the only audible Doppler effect is usually reflections from airplanes, and sounds much like your recording. When there is no propagation enhancement showing on the Hepburn maps, there is usually a fast, constant, chopping up of the SSB phone signal, and when we switch to a relatively wide digital mode - print is perfect. It sounds like there are two different propagation modes in play Skip. The steadier signals that tend to coincide with the Hepburn maps would appear to be coming from real tropospheric ducting (which says a lot for those maps) while the other mode may be tropospheric scatter. For what it's worth, the path simulator can emulate the rapid fade characteristics you mentioned by introducing low-frequency Doppler spread. This seems to coincide with the 2 to 3 fades per-second you mentioned (see profiles jpg). The fade frequency tends to become more rapid as the Doppler spread frequency is increased. It's difficult to say what's really going on, but the digital modes themselves may tell us something. We know for a fact that narrow-band PSK modes cannot tolerate Doppler spread while MFSK modes have little or no trouble coping. This seems to be the situation with your tests on 432 and suggests that the throughput failures are Doppler induced. I think you can determine if Doppler spread is present, but it's not going to show up in the waterfall with most digital modes; it needs to be fairly intense for that to happen. I've found that the best approach is to measure the spread of a carrier signal using Spectran or SBSpectrum. The frequency-spread carrier will appear broad compared to a normal signal; the software magnifies the effect -- see SBspectrum images 1 and 2. As you can see in the waterfall images (1 and 2) it's difficult to tell the difference between mild Doppler spreading at 0.25Hz and more intense Doppler spread at 5Hz, yet the difference is night and day in terms of throughput with narrow modes. Of course you can use the tuning indicator with PSK31, but it's not as precise. A few more questions: Are there times when the fading frequency increases beyond 2 or 3 Hz? Are the choppy signals generally weaker than those that coincide with the Hepburn maps? What are the distances between your QTH and the stations you work on VHF/UHF? Have the narrow modes like PSK31 worked at all on what seems to be tropo-scatter mode? Looking forward to hearing more about the VHF/UHF digital tests Skip. Thanks, Tony -K2MO
Re: [digitalradio] VHF / UHF Digital Beyond line-of-sight
Tony, thanks for images. We will try with some single carriers next week and see what happens. The conditions we are currently testing under are with no ducting at all on the Hepburn map, so I assume it is all tropospheric scatter. This morning, SSB phone was very badly chopped up, but signals varied from S1 to S4, so we had another opportunity to test digital modes. We tried DominiEx 11, DominoEx 11 with FEC, Thor 11, and Contestia 16-500. In each case, Contestia produced about 90% copy (there were a few words with errors), whereas DominoEX 11, DomimoEx 11 with FEC , and Thor 11 had over 50% errors. We could have tried the wider Thor and DominoEx modes, but then the minimum S/N would not be good enough. It was not quite good enough with Contestia for 100% print anyway. Next week we will compare Olivia to Contestia to see if we can confirm Jaak's simulation findings. No more tests possible this week. 73 - Skip KH6TY Tony wrote: [Attachment(s) #TopText from Tony included below] On 4/20/2010 3:32 AM, KH6TY wrote: Hi Tony, When both stations are within the same ducting level, the only audible Doppler effect is usually reflections from airplanes, and sounds much like your recording. When there is no propagation enhancement showing on the Hepburn maps, there is usually a fast, constant, chopping up of the SSB phone signal, and when we switch to a relatively wide digital mode - print is perfect. It sounds like there are two different propagation modes in play Skip. The steadier signals that tend to coincide with the Hepburn maps would appear to be coming from real tropospheric ducting (which says a lot for those maps) while the other mode may be tropospheric scatter. For what it's worth, the path simulator can emulate the rapid fade characteristics you mentioned by introducing low-frequency Doppler spread. This seems to coincide with the 2 to 3 fades per-second you mentioned (see profiles jpg). The fade frequency tends to become more rapid as the Doppler spread frequency is increased. It's difficult to say what's really going on, but the digital modes themselves may tell us something. We know for a fact that narrow-band PSK modes cannot tolerate Doppler spread while MFSK modes have little or no trouble coping. This seems to be the situation with your tests on 432 and suggests that the throughput failures are Doppler induced. I think you can determine if Doppler spread is present, but it's not going to show up in the waterfall with most digital modes; it needs to be fairly intense for that to happen. I've found that the best approach is to measure the spread of a carrier signal using Spectran or SBSpectrum. The frequency-spread carrier will appear broad compared to a normal signal; the software magnifies the effect -- see SBspectrum images 1 and 2. As you can see in the waterfall images (1 and 2) it's difficult to tell the difference between mild Doppler spreading at 0.25Hz and more intense Doppler spread at 5Hz, yet the difference is night and day in terms of throughput with narrow modes. Of course you can use the tuning indicator with PSK31, but it's not as precise. A few more questions: Are there times when the fading frequency increases beyond 2 or 3 Hz? Are the choppy signals generally weaker than those that coincide with the Hepburn maps? What are the distances between your QTH and the stations you work on VHF/UHF? Have the narrow modes like PSK31 worked at all on what seems to be tropo-scatter mode? Looking forward to hearing more about the VHF/UHF digital tests Skip. Thanks, Tony -K2MO
[digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio
I believe a substantial number of American radio amateurs regard using radio tranceivers and their associated pieces of equipment in an entirely different way to their counterparts in Europe. The two continents are entirely different and consequently the people who live in the two continents are different. In America great stress is put upon emergency survival, luckily in Europe we don't have to contend with regular tornado's and hurricanes, ice storms which destroy electricity supply to vast areas of the country, and huge amounts of melting snow which can raise river depths by tens of feet and cause flooding and hardship to many many thousands of people. Situations such as these occur rarely, if at all, in Europe, the continent is more densely populated and services to support the population are provided by professional trained personnel in every country at a substantial cost to its citizens. Luckily most of us in Europe regard amateur radio as a hobby, somewhat akin to fishing, we sit there, put out a call and don't know what we are about to catch, its a lucky dip ! Kind regards, Mel G0GQK
Re: [digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio
Mel, You make a good point about our differences. In the US, EmComm is a niche that some hams fill enthusiastically, while others don't get involved but are grateful for those who do. It's always there to learn about in the future, like digital modes, QRP, EME, UHF DX, low bands, etc. So much to do, so much to learn, so little time Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: raf3151019 To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:34 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio I believe a substantial number of American radio amateurs regard using radio tranceivers and their associated pieces of equipment in an entirely different way to their counterparts in Europe. The two continents are entirely different and consequently the people who live in the two continents are different. In America great stress is put upon emergency survival, luckily in Europe we don't have to contend with regular tornado's and hurricanes, ice storms which destroy electricity supply to vast areas of the country, and huge amounts of melting snow which can raise river depths by tens of feet and cause flooding and hardship to many many thousands of people. Situations such as these occur rarely, if at all, in Europe, the continent is more densely populated and services to support the population are provided by professional trained personnel in every country at a substantial cost to its citizens. Luckily most of us in Europe regard amateur radio as a hobby, somewhat akin to fishing, we sit there, put out a call and don't know what we are about to catch, its a lucky dip ! Kind regards, Mel G0GQK
Re: [digitalradio] VHF / UHF Digital Beyond line-of-sight [1 Attachment]
On 4/21/2010 3:25 PM, KH6TY wrote: This morning, SSB phone was very badly chopped up, but signals varied from S1 to S4, so we had another opportunity to test digital modes. We tried DominiEx 11, DominoEx 11 with FEC, Thor 11, and Contestia 16-500. In each case, Contestia produced about 90% copy (there were a few words with errors), whereas DominoEX 11, DomimoEx 11 with FEC , and Thor 11 had over 50% errors. Skip, Your results seem to agree with the Doppler tests I ran with the path simulator. I found that there's an obvious difference in how much Doppler spread each mode can handle and Olivia tends to be the most tolerant. Frequency spreading does cause the rapid fade effect we spoke about and in this test, the fades are faster than the 2 to 3Hz you mentioned. There's a sample of the Doppler spread audio attached to this mssage. The first half is a normal MT63 signal without distortion; the second half shows the effect of frequency spreading (7 Hertz). Tony -K2MO Path Simulation: Frequency Spread 7 Hz SNR -3db THOR11 tiq Rck brown fox juc ekver the la0 nr e;5yd G to lsGa tmps over the lazy dog taAHk brown fox jumpoOireCoer DominoEX11 riefox zukpl over theeizydqtT theepuick brocrfak Iuksl ower te layy dty the quidT ßtwn xox jpsovtr the lazj hoz DominoEX11 FEC e quick bÄwn fox jumps over the laonithe q¸?yeXºe ecteips oveords oo¯he quixoôroc ávs over the lazy d o Aquick bmt ª?ox jumps over the lazy dog Olivia 8-500 the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Olivia 16-500 the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. PSK31 (no print) PSK63 the /ui btown fox 6smps om r laoty dogt he qutc^(TM)I own fo jumps over tme la_ogl the |-ipk yrown fox j om on er hlazb dog Tony wrote: On 4/20/2010 3:32 AM, KH6TY wrote: Hi Tony, When both stations are within the same ducting level, the only audible Doppler effect is usually reflections from airplanes, and sounds much like your recording. When there is no propagation enhancement showing on the Hepburn maps, there is usually a fast, constant, chopping up of the SSB phone signal, and when we switch to a relatively wide digital mode - print is perfect. It sounds like there are two different propagation modes in play Skip. The steadier signals that tend to coincide with the Hepburn maps would appear to be coming from real tropospheric ducting (which says a lot for those maps) while the other mode may be tropospheric scatter. For what it's worth, the path simulator can emulate the rapid fade characteristics you mentioned by introducing low-frequency Doppler spread. This seems to coincide with the 2 to 3 fades per-second you mentioned (see profiles jpg). The fade frequency tends to become more rapid as the Doppler spread frequency is increased. It's difficult to say what's really going on, but the digital modes themselves may tell us something. We know for a fact that narrow-band PSK modes cannot tolerate Doppler spread while MFSK modes have little or no trouble coping. This seems to be the situation with your tests on 432 and suggests that the throughput failures are Doppler induced. I think you can determine if Doppler spread is present, but it's not going to show up in the waterfall with most digital modes; it needs to be fairly intense for that to happen. I've found that the best approach is to measure the spread of a carrier signal using Spectran or SBSpectrum. The frequency-spread carrier will appear broad compared to a normal signal; the software magnifies the effect -- see SBspectrum images 1 and 2. As you can see in the waterfall images (1 and 2) it's difficult to tell the difference between mild Doppler spreading at 0.25Hz and more intense Doppler spread at 5Hz, yet the difference is night and day in terms of throughput with narrow modes. Of course you can use the tuning indicator with PSK31, but it's not as precise. A few more questions: Are there times when the fading frequency increases beyond 2 or 3 Hz? Are the choppy signals generally weaker than those that coincide with the Hepburn maps? What are the distances between your QTH and the stations you work on VHF/UHF? Have the narrow modes like PSK31 worked at all on what seems to be tropo-scatter mode? Looking forward to hearing more about the VHF/UHF digital tests Skip. Thanks, Tony -K2MO __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5048 (20100421) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [digitalradio] VHF / UHF Digital Beyond line-of-sight
Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5048 (20100421) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com
[digitalradio] Dayton Hamvention D-STAR Linking Announcement
Original Message Subject: [Hamvention] D-Star Linking Announcement Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:26:22 - From: ke4wle ke4...@ke4wle.no-ip.org Reply-To: hamvent...@yahoogroups.com To: hamvent...@yahoogroups.com Hamvention just got approval from the DStar reflector owner and we will be linking the W8BI to the 30-B reflector over the Hamvention® weekend. We did the same thing last year, with a different reflector. A reflector allows everyone that is linked, either via a repeater or over the internet to communicate with everyone else that is linked. Here's the announcement, feel free to punch it up. With the permission of the reflector owner, the W8BI DStar gateway will be linked to the 30-B reflector during Hamvention® weekend. If you would like to follow the DStar activity in Dayton over Hamvention® weekend, please use a linked repeater or link your DV Dongle to the 30-B reflector. Please do not link directly to the W8BI gateway. Direct any questions to this group or Mark Erbaugh [micro...@hughes.net]
