Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On 25/02/2008, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? איך מקלידים את המקף העליון? אני משתמש בKDE, אם זה חשוב. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 25/02/2008, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? איך מקלידים את המקף העליון? אני משתמש בKDE, אם זה חשוב. Using the lyx keyboard that comes in KDE, click shift-minus. I use it all the time in any application that supports unicode. Herouth To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On 26/02/2008, Herouth Maoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 25/02/2008, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? איך מקלידים את המקף העליון? אני משתמש בKDE, אם זה חשוב. Using the lyx keyboard that comes in KDE, click shift-minus. I use it all the time in any application that supports unicode. Herouth No way with the keyboard? I have a hard time using the mouse. Broken thumb.] Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 26/02/2008, Herouth Maoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 25/02/2008, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? איך מקלידים את המקף העליון? אני משתמש בKDE, אם זה חשוב. Using the lyx keyboard that comes in KDE, click shift-minus. I use it all the time in any application that supports unicode. Herouth No way with the keyboard? I have a hard time using the mouse. Broken thumb] Maybe my use of the word click misled you. Should have said press. Herouth To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On 26/02/2008, Herouth Maoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: איך מקלידים את המקף העליון? אני משתמש בKDE, אם זה חשוב. Using the lyx keyboard that comes in KDE, click shift-minus. I use it all the time in any application that supports unicode. Herouth No way with the keyboard? I have a hard time using the mouse. Broken thumb.] Maybe my use of the word click misled you. Should have said press. Where is the lyx keyboard? Pressing SHIFT-minus for me gives me underscore. Pressing SHIFT-numpadMinus gives me minus. I looked in Kcontrol for lyx keyboard but do not see it. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On 26/02/2008, at 19:40, Dotan Cohen wrote: Where is the lyx keyboard? Pressing SHIFT-minus for me gives me underscore. Pressing SHIFT-numpadMinus gives me minus. I looked in Kcontrol for lyx keyboard but do not see it. In the control panel, under keyboard layout which is under the accessibility (at least in my Mandriva it is), you can select Israel as a keyboard layout. When you do so, you have a selection of variant in a drop down menu below the active layouts list. You select lyx from it. It also gives you Nikud in a very easy-to- remember layout (most Nikud is accessible as shift + its first letter - like shin for shwa and het for hirik). Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Hi, You can't use RTL in plain text mode because of a simple issue: what would tell the text to be in RTL? If's there's no HTML/CSS decleration about RTL, why should the mail be in RTL? I know that kmail for example is smart enough to detect that if a paragraph begins in hebrew text, then it should be automatically aligned to right (it was my idea to convince Lars from TrollTech to implement it, actually), but other mailers simply won't honour it. I'll take myself for example: I'm using gmail and I'm using another account with HTML enabled to send Hebrew mail. That way I can be assured that the receiver side will get my Hebrew mail right-justified, in RTL and fully readable (unlike the Hebrew hotmail which comes junk at some web based mails). So yes, you need to use HTML mode to send a full hebrew text which would display nicely on the other side. You could of course ignore this, but it's any body's guess how the other side will accept it. Thanks, Hetz First, kudos for using vim for mails. (Real men use 'ed' =) ) Maybe I was unclear: I wasn't talking about using Logical Hebrew - this I take for granted.. I was talking about 'align to the right' and putting the text in 'RTL mode', so that mixed Hebrew lines with few English words inside would be rendered correctly. I find it funny if it's just not possible in plaintext.. I like plaintext :) - Oren -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Quoting Oren Held [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Monday 25 February 2008 06:36, Avraham Rosenberg wrote: I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? I use plain text for my E-mail in Hebrew (Mailer mutt, editor vi). My only real problems are with the choice of encoding (utf-8 or ISO) and, when writing to people who use windows, I have to remember that their mail clients automatically reverse direction. So that I have to use a terminal in which the Hebrew text appears reversed in my system. As there is a variety of mailers in windows, and they do not treat Hebrew exactly the same way, I receive from time to time complains about some problems. Actually, I am not sure that these problems are related to their mailer. The problem may be just the size of their window/vs the length of my lines. Keeping lines short is a safe bet. First, kudos for using vim for mails. (Real men use 'ed' =) ) Maybe I was unclear: I wasn't talking about using Logical Hebrew - this I take for granted.. I was talking about 'align to the right' and putting the text in 'RTL mode', so that mixed Hebrew lines with few English words inside would be rendered correctly. I find it funny if it's just not possible in plaintext.. I like plaintext :) What you are referring to is text directionality. It's the parameter that guides the bilingual display algorithm. If the general text directionality is right-to-left, for example, the algorithm will place punctuation on the left side of a sentence and order parts in different directionalities properly from right to left. Anyway, it's possible to do so in plain text if you use unicode, and embed unicode directionality characters at the beginning (and possibly the end - depending on your choince of directionality characters) of the paragraph. However, though this method should work, some MUAs break long paragraphs into separate lines (which, from the unicode definition perspective, means that each line is a separate paragraph). That would cause only the first line in the paragraph will have proper directionality (it will be the only one that starts with a directionality character) and the rest will break. The bottom line is that it is virtually impossible to properly display Hebrew if you use plaintext in e-mail. Herouth To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Hi, You can actually use RTL in UTF-8, just place RLE (U+202B) in the start of each Hebrew sentence and PDF (U+202C) at the end (PDF is not a most, since each end of sentence gets it automatically, but I see it as a good practice). Keep in mind that some plain text users might scream at this point since they can see that character. Also note that RLE/LRE..PDF has nothing to do with line alignment, so you will still send it unprofessional. I prefer to send email messages most of the time in HTML just because of that, and to include plain text fallback which includes the RLE/LRE..PDF there. Tomer. On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Oren Held [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? Thanks - Oren -- Tomer
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 02:14:15AM +0200, Oren Held wrote: Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? איך ההודעה הזו נראית? -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
Hi, איך ההודעה הזו נראית? In hebrew, but justified to the left -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 01:14:20PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Hi, איך ההודעה הזו נראית? In hebrew, but justified to the left So gmail chose the strange hueristics of following the first (strong) character of the message. bidiv showed it OK. Though in this reply the Hebrew paragraph will not be properly aligned (it is now not part of a separate paragraph). -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
sorry, sent it off list by mistake, for some reason reply to list doesn't work with this list On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:37:18 +0200 Micha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:29:11 + Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 01:14:20PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Hi, איך ההודעה הזו נראית? In hebrew, but justified to the left So gmail chose the strange hueristics of following the first (strong) character of the message. bidiv showed it OK. Though in this reply the Hebrew paragraph will not be properly aligned (it is now not part of a separate paragraph). claws mail gets it correct actually, AFAIK due to using gtk2 which handles that part. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:49:26 +0200 Hetz Ben Hamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You can't use RTL in plain text mode because of a simple issue: what would tell the text to be in RTL? If's there's no HTML/CSS decleration about RTL, why should the mail be in RTL? I know that kmail for example is smart enough to detect that if a paragraph begins in hebrew text, then it should be automatically aligned to right (it was my idea to convince Lars from TrollTech to implement it, actually), but other mailers simply won't honour it. I'll take myself for example: I'm using gmail and I'm using another account with HTML enabled to send Hebrew mail. That way I can be assured that the receiver side will get my Hebrew mail right-justified, in RTL and fully readable (unlike the Hebrew hotmail which comes junk at some web based mails). So yes, you need to use HTML mode to send a full hebrew text which would display nicely on the other side. You could of course ignore this, but it's any body's guess how the other side will accept it. I use Claws Mail (sylpheed claws 3.3) and send the occasional hebrew mail. Never had any complaints. The only issue is when mixing hebrew and english, so when it's important and more than one word, I just break it into a new line for the english (generally it's and equation or a link and such, so it's good to put it on a new line anyway). it does seem that the directionality is dependent on the encoding though. if the encoding is misinterpreted I will also get the directionality wrong (most mails I get are either cp1255 or unicode, as far as I know I am sending cp1255) Thanks, Hetz First, kudos for using vim for mails. (Real men use 'ed' =) ) Maybe I was unclear: I wasn't talking about using Logical Hebrew - this I take for granted.. I was talking about 'align to the right' and putting the text in 'RTL mode', so that mixed Hebrew lines with few English words inside would be rendered correctly. I find it funny if it's just not possible in plaintext.. I like plaintext :) - Oren = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 02:14:15AM +0200, Oren Held wrote: Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? Tzafrir mentioned it off-hand, but I'd like to stress Nadav Har'El's bidiv. I use it to page throgh Hebrew mails. It uses fribidi, and it is smart enough to guess the right justification for each paragraph. It also does a fine job at guessing the input encoding of the text, and outputing in the correct encoding according to your locale. Dan. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 13:14 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Hi, איך ההודעה הזו נראית? In hebrew, but justified to the left I use Evolution (version 2.6.3, from Debian Etch) to read my E-mail, and in Evolution, the Hebrew line is right-justified, with RTL direction (the question mark is to the left). --- Omer To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 10:59:11AM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 02:14:15AM +0200, Oren Held wrote: Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? איך ההודעה הזו נראית? -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Provided my terminal is wide enough, I see your Hebrew sentence correct and right-aligned, both in uxterm and mlterm (with bidi turned off). Did not try the plain xterm, because I set it to start with LC_ALL=C, and use it either with latin characters or with the old ISO Hebrew encoding. If the terminal is narrower than your line's length, the line is split in two, with its end appearing before (higher) than its beginning. Mail client mutt. Locale en-US.UTF-8. Debian (mainly) etch. Cheers, Avraham -- Please avoid sending to this address Excell or Powerpoint attachments. cale To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Monday, 25 בFebruary 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 01:14:20PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Hi, איך ההודעה הזו נראית? כפי שהיא צריכה להיות, מימין לשמאל וצמודה לימין. אני משתמש ב־kmail גרסה 3.5.8 ב-Fedora. In applications that use correct bidi algorithm the RTL is a given. However the unicode bidi alrgorithm does not specify (AFAIR) the *initial* paragraph direction. So if there is no explicit information (e.g: RLE), the application should have a reasonable heuristic. The most common such rule is to use the first character of the paragraph as an implicit direction setter (IIRC that is what bidiv uses). דגשים: - אני משתמש רק בטקסט רגיל, לא HTML (ובקידוד UTF-8). - היישור עובד טוב גם כשיש תווים נייטרלים בתחילת שורה (כמו המקפים והרווחים בתחילת שורות אלו). - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron ICQ UIN: 16527398 We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's. -- Simon Phipps To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On 25/02/2008, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: כפי שהיא צריכה להיות, מימין לשמאל וצמודה לימין. אני משתמש ב־kmail גרסה 3.5.8 ב-Fedora. In applications that use correct bidi algorithm the RTL is a given. However the unicode bidi alrgorithm does not specify (AFAIR) the *initial* paragraph direction. So if there is no explicit information (e.g: RLE), the application should have a reasonable heuristic. The most common such rule is to use the first character of the paragraph as an implicit direction setter (IIRC that is what bidiv uses). דגשים: - אני משתמש רק בטקסט רגיל, לא HTML (ובקידוד UTF-8). - היישור עובד טוב גם כשיש תווים נייטרלים בתחילת שורה (כמו המקפים והרווחים בתחילת שורות אלו). - בעקבות אזכור של מישהו (איני זוכר מי) גיליתי שהתו מקף עליון '־' מוגדר ביוניקוד כתו עם ישור ימין-שמאל. זה פותר המון בעיות של צירופים קשים כגון ה־9 לחודש (נסו לכתוב זאת עם מקף רגיל). הבעיה -- התן הזה חסר בגופנים נפוצים ב־Windows (כמו Arial וכו'), לכן צמצמתי קצת את השימוש בו. האם במערכות שלכם רואים אותו? In Gmail: http://dotancohen.com/images/examples/tzafrir.png I always send UTF-8 plaintext through Thunderbird. In Thunderbird with the bidi extension, one can ALT-SHIFT-X to change text alignment. This is for display only, though, and does not affect the message sent. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
RTL in plaintext mails
Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? Thanks - Oren = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 02:14:15AM +0200, Oren Held wrote: Hi, I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? Thanks - Oren Hi Oren, I use plain text for my E-mail in Hebrew (Mailer mutt, editor vi). My only real problems are with the choice of encoding (utf-8 or ISO) and, when writing to people who use windows, I have to remember that their mail clients automatically reverse direction. So that I have to use a terminal in which the Hebrew text appears reversed in my system. As there is a variety of mailers in windows, and they do not treat Hebrew exactly the same way, I receive from time to time complains about some problems. Actually, I am not sure that these problems are related to their mailer. The problem may be just the size of their window/vs the length of my lines. Keeping lines short is a safe bet. Cheers, Avraham -- Please avoid sending to this address Excell or Powerpoint attachments. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RTL in plaintext mails
On Monday 25 February 2008 06:36, Avraham Rosenberg wrote: I feel dumb.. Am I missing something, or is it just impossible to send Right-To-Left mails in plaintext? Must I use HTML mails when I write in Hebrew? I use plain text for my E-mail in Hebrew (Mailer mutt, editor vi). My only real problems are with the choice of encoding (utf-8 or ISO) and, when writing to people who use windows, I have to remember that their mail clients automatically reverse direction. So that I have to use a terminal in which the Hebrew text appears reversed in my system. As there is a variety of mailers in windows, and they do not treat Hebrew exactly the same way, I receive from time to time complains about some problems. Actually, I am not sure that these problems are related to their mailer. The problem may be just the size of their window/vs the length of my lines. Keeping lines short is a safe bet. First, kudos for using vim for mails. (Real men use 'ed' =) ) Maybe I was unclear: I wasn't talking about using Logical Hebrew - this I take for granted.. I was talking about 'align to the right' and putting the text in 'RTL mode', so that mixed Hebrew lines with few English words inside would be rendered correctly. I find it funny if it's just not possible in plaintext.. I like plaintext :) - Oren = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
