[systemsettings] [Bug 451710] New: System Settings Wrongs With open

[Secaumene Muse]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=451710

Bug ID: 451710
   Summary: System Settings Wrongs With open
   Product: systemsettings
   Version: 5.24.3
  Platform: unspecified
OS: Linux
Status: REPORTED
  Keywords: drkonqi
  Severity: crash
  Priority: NOR
 Component: general
  Assignee: plasma-b...@kde.org
  Reporter: rar...@foxmail.com
  Target Milestone: ---

Application: systemsettings (5.24.3)

Qt Version: 5.15.2
Frameworks Version: 5.90.0
Operating System: Linux 5.16.0-kali5-amd64 x86_64
Windowing System: X11
Distribution: Kali GNU/Linux Rolling
DrKonqi: 5.24.3 [KCrashBackend]

-- Information about the crash:
- What I was doing when the application crashed:
打开系统设置，操作获取新启动屏幕时直接操作系统设置，此时获取界面消失。不关闭窗口，再次打开获取界面时崩溃
- Unusual behavior I noticed:
当时已因停电而重启，停电前正在操作该软件
- Custom settings of the application:
B-微风阴阳主题，同时使用主题的桌面以及大量字体

The crash can be reproduced every time.

-- Backtrace:
Application: 系统设置 (systemsettings), signal: Segmentation fault

[KCrash Handler]
#4  0x7f82c38dc925 in QObjectPrivate::addConnection(int,
QObjectPrivate::Connection*) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Core.so.5
#5  0x7f82c38e1319 in QObjectPrivate::connectImpl(QObject const*, int,
QObject const*, void**, QtPrivate::QSlotObjectBase*, Qt::ConnectionType, int
const*, QMetaObject const*) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Core.so.5
#6  0x7f82c38e17cd in QObject::connectImpl(QObject const*, void**, QObject
const*, void**, QtPrivate::QSlotObjectBase*, Qt::ConnectionType, int const*,
QMetaObject const*) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Core.so.5
#7  0x7f82926fd99a in KNSCore::Engine::loadProviders() () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libKF5NewStuffCore.so.5
#8  0x7f829270223c in KNSCore::Engine::init(QString const&) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libKF5NewStuffCore.so.5
#9  0x7f829254f732 in ?? () from
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt5/qml/org/kde/newstuff/libnewstuffqmlplugin.so
#10 0x7f829254a76b in ?? () from
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt5/qml/org/kde/newstuff/libnewstuffqmlplugin.so
#11 0x7f82c222e262 in
QV4::QObjectWrapper::setProperty(QV4::ExecutionEngine*, QObject*,
QQmlPropertyData*, QV4::Value const&) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#12 0x7f82c222e7b2 in
QV4::QObjectWrapper::setQmlProperty(QV4::ExecutionEngine*, QQmlContextData*,
QObject*, QV4::String*, QV4::QObjectWrapper::RevisionMode, QV4::Value const&)
() from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#13 0x7f82c222e955 in QV4::QObjectWrapper::virtualPut(QV4::Managed*,
QV4::PropertyKey, QV4::Value const&, QV4::Value*) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#14 0x7f82c21f5122 in QV4::Object::virtualResolveLookupSetter(QV4::Object*,
QV4::ExecutionEngine*, QV4::Lookup*, QV4::Value const&) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#15 0x7f82c2248402 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#16 0x7f82c224c667 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#17 0x7f82c21e09b0 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#18 0x7f82c225b972 in
QV4::Runtime::CallQmlContextPropertyLookup::call(QV4::ExecutionEngine*,
unsigned int, QV4::Value*, int) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#19 0x7f82c2247fc6 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#20 0x7f82c224c667 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#21 0x7f82c21dfbfe in QV4::Function::call(QV4::Value const*, QV4::Value
const*, int, QV4::ExecutionContext const*) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#22 0x7f82c23668a5 in QQmlJavaScriptExpression::evaluate(QV4::CallData*,
bool*) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#23 0x7f82c231860b in QQmlBoundSignalExpression::evaluate(void**) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#24 0x7f82c23197f8 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#25 0x7f82c234b9c5 in QQmlNotifier::emitNotify(QQmlNotifierEndpoint*,
void**) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Qml.so.5
#26 0x7f82c38e9d18 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Core.so.5
#27 0x7f82bd0a4f41 in QQuickAbstractButtonPrivate::handleRelease(QPointF
const&) () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5QuickTemplates2.so.5
#28 0x7f82bd0c1fe9 in QQuickControl::mouseReleaseEvent(QMouseEvent*) ()
from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5QuickTemplates2.so.5
#29 0x7f82c275cfb8 in QQuickItem::event(QEvent*) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Quick.so.5
#30 0x7f82c44a671f in QApplicationPrivate::notify_helper(QObject*, QEvent*)
() from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Widgets.so.5
#31 0x7f82c38b3b4a in QCoreApplication::notifyInternal2(QObject*, QEvent*)
() from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Core.so.5
#32 0x7f82c277ad65 in
QQuickWindowPrivate::deliverMouseEvent(QQuickPointerMouseEvent*) () from
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Quick.so.5
#33 0x7f82c277c55b in
QQuickWindowPrivate::deliverPointerEvent(QQuickPointerEvent*) () from

Re: Rawhide arm compiler bug?

[David Muse]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 21:37:55 +0100
Florian Weimer  wrote:

> * David Muse:
> 
> > Forgive me if I'm pointing out a known issue, but I haven't noticed 
> > anything on the list about this yet...
> >
> > I keep getting sent rawhide build errors for my project.  They only appear 
> > to occur on the avmv7hl platform.  It builds fine on all other 
> > architectures.
> >
> >
> > The errors are like:
> >
> > sha1.cpp: In member function 'sha1::~sha1()':
> > sha1.cpp:34:1: error: pointer used after 'operator delete(void*, unsigned 
> > int)' [-Werror=use-after-free]
> >34 | }
> >   | ^
> >
> >
> > The code for ~sha1() is:
> >
> > sha1::~sha1() {
> > delete pvt;
> > }
> >
> > Line 34 is that closing bracket.
> >
> >
> > The code definitely isn't using the pointer after it's been deleted.
> > Could this be a compiler bug?
> 
> It's this bug:
> 
>   Unexpected [-Werror=use-after-free] warning only on arm7hl build of code
>   <https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2047316>
> 
> It's fixed in gcc-12.0.1-0.4.fc36.  Under local mock, you'll have to use
> --enablerepo=local because there hasn't been a compose in a while
> (apparently).
> 
> Thanks,
> Florian
> 
> 

Ahh, ok.  Should I mark any buzilla bugs that I get as duplicates of that one?

Dave
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Rawhide arm compiler bug?

[David Muse]

Forgive me if I'm pointing out a known issue, but I haven't noticed anything on 
the list about this yet...

I keep getting sent rawhide build errors for my project.  They only appear to 
occur on the avmv7hl platform.  It builds fine on all other architectures.


The errors are like:

sha1.cpp: In member function 'sha1::~sha1()':
sha1.cpp:34:1: error: pointer used after 'operator delete(void*, unsigned int)' 
[-Werror=use-after-free]
   34 | }
  | ^


The code for ~sha1() is:

sha1::~sha1() {
delete pvt;
}

Line 34 is that closing bracket.


The code definitely isn't using the pointer after it's been deleted.  Could 
this be a compiler bug?

Thanks,

David
david.m...@firstworks.com
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[issue37578] Change Glob: Allow Recursion for Hidden Files

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

If this was to be done, you'd want to make sure character sequences also match 
hidden files: [.]. Just * and ? would be incomplete. If allowing ** to match a 
leading dot, it would not match . or ..

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Apache for big sur

[Miranda Muse]

Hi, 

Can you tell me if apache works with my Mac OS Big Sure version 11.4? If so, 
can you please send me the link for download?

If not, how can I open a .ods file in my new Mac in Numbers?

Thank you,

Miranda
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[issue44380] glob.glob handling of * (asterisk) wildcard is broken

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

Sadly, this because pathlib glob and glob.glob use different implementations. 
And glob.glob does not provide something equivalent to a DOTALL flag allowing a 
user to glob hidden files without explicitly defining the leading dot in the 
pattern.

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[chirp_users] Need help with kenwood th-k2

[Susan Muse via chirp_users]

Hello, I am having trouble using CHIRP with my kenwood th-k2.  When I first try 
to download from radio I get nothing.  It just sits there.  If I try to 
download a second time I get an error that access to com port is denied.  I am 
using a mirkit ftdi cable that has worked well with my boafeng radios and 
CHIRP.  I have the PC setting on the th-k2 set to "on".  What am I 
missing?Thanks for any help.
Susan WB5JFL
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Re: [Frameworks] critiques?

[John Muse]

Hi, Michael.  I’ve found crits (even with friends!) to be most useful when a., 
folks are in a room (or Zoom) together and can really talk through their 
experience with you; b., you prepare a few questions in advance, which can be 
thematic or technical, about the topic or the formal issues or their 
entanglement; c., you can offer different cuts (of a few sequences, of 
approaches to sound design, of color correction) for comparison; d., there are 
snacks!  

It can be hard to explain the idea of a “rough cut” or “work in progress” or 
“temp music” or “temp titles” to people who aren’t makers and steeped in the 
lore, but you can frame things and focus everyone’s attention on the things 
that really matter to you.

Hope this helps!

j 

> On Jan 27, 2021, at 8:07 PM, Michael Campos-Quinn 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> I'm curious to hear what anyone would suggest for getting critical feedback 
> on works in progress beyond sharing with friends. There are so many different 
> aesthetic interests and even politics so there's no single answer, but I've 
> found myself looking for something between "rad, dude" and crickets. 
> 
> Any suggestions would be super appreciated! 
> 
> Best wishes to you all,
> Michael Campos-Quinn
> -- 
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks@film-gallery.org
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org

j/PrM


*

John Muse
Assistant Professor of Visual Studies
Haverford College
he/him/his
j=John PrM=Professor Muse

http://www.finleymuse.com/
https://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
https://johnmuse.academia.edu/
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Re: [Frameworks] Experimental films on photography

[John Muse]

Hi, Bernard.  I often teach a Film on Photography course and just as often 
include Memento in the syllabus… only to remove it.  Have you taught it?  How 
does it work for students?  

Thanks!

j

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 4:49 PM, Bernard Roddy  wrote:
> 
> Dear Albert:
> 
> This is a nice invitation to read (I quote it below). For me it leaves too 
> much to consider. I had two reactions.First, I have been interested in 
> conceptual art's use of photography. Under these terms we would have to 
> impose a "post-photographic" restriction on what constitutes acceptable 
> examples in your list. I would submit a short list of classic texts written 
> by artists for publication in 1969 and 1970.
> 
> But I also just taught a course in which I used standard narrative cinema in 
> order to think about traditional philosophical material. And the film, 
> Memento, became interesting for reasons having nothing to do with any 
> experimental film.
> 
> Or so it would appear. One could undertake a whole research agenda in which 
> the role of memory in the understanding of shot relationships is explored. 
> This concerns the experience of the spectator when the questions concern the 
> order of events and their causal relationships. In his Matter and Memory 
> Henri Bergson was preoccupied by 19th century research that involves brain 
> lesions. Bergson uses results in neurophysiology to confirm his hypotheses 
> about memory. 
> 
> But it was in order to get a handle on Deleuze's reference to the memory 
> image that I found myself reading Bergson. Deleuze is extremely casual with 
> terminology, but Bergson isn't. What Deleuze means by the memory image and 
> the time image can only be appreciated, of course, by reviewing a history of 
> narrative cinema. But what Bergson means when he discusses research into 
> memory disorders can be appreciated by any artist working with images that 
> replicate perception.
> 
> In Memento Leonard takes instamatic photographs that are developed before his 
> eyes. They are only part of his basis for deciding what he will do in the 
> future, but as images fixed on paper they make possible repeated experience 
> of the circumstances of some past event.
> 
> Why burn a photograph documenting something you did? What is the significance 
> of a character's understanding of the value of a photograph for the 
> understanding that a spectator has of the plot?
> 
> Bernie
> 
> 
> - - - - - -
> Hello all,
> 
> I was making a list of experimental film practices on photography and I was
> wondering if you could suggest more titles.
> 
> At first I wanted to focus just on movies where photographs are deleted
> (burned, destroyed) or denied but I only know *(nostalgia)* for Hollis
> Frampton and the project *Found Monochromes* by David Batchelor (slides).
> Does anyone know other films where the main purpose is the destruction or
> the invisibility of photographs?
> 
> On the other hand I have started a list of films made from photographs.
> There are dozens of films (some of them animations) where the object of
> analysis are still images, from filmed Polaroids to appropriation of
> advertising images from magazines or the accumulation of digital images
> found on the internet:
> 
> *Transformation by Holding Time* by Paul de Nooijer
> *Pasadena Freeway Stills* and *Hand Held Day* by Gary Beydler
> *Production Stills* by Morgan Fisher
> *Frank Film* by Frank Mouris
> *Boy Meets Girl* by Eugènia Balcells
> *Wall *by Takashi Ito
> *Photodiary *by Takashi Ito
> *Clandestine Porn Film* by Augustin Gimel
> *DIES IRAE* by Jean Gabriel Périot
> *The World as Will and Representation* de Roy Arden
> 
> Do others come to mind?
> 
> Thank you,
> Albert Alcoz
> 
> ___
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j/PrM


*

Take care; be well; wash your hands; safeguard all the distances!

John Muse
Assistant Professor of Visual Studies
Haverford College
he/him/his
j=John PrM=Professor Muse
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
https://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
https://www.instagram.com/johnmuseartist/
https://www.facebook.com/jmuse99

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Re: [Frameworks] Experimental films on photography

[John Muse]

Hi, Albert. Please consider adding Agnes Varda’s Ulysse to your list as well as 
the other films in her Cinévardaphoto: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0423987/

And I humbly (and not so humbly) submit the following proposal for your 
consideration: 
https://www.academia.edu/34354327/Film_on_Photography_or_The_Eclipse_of_the_Frame_Impakt_Festival_2017
  There are a few other films worth thinking about here.

j 


> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Albert Alcoz  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I was making a list of experimental film practices on photography and I was 
> wondering if you could suggest more titles.
> 
> At first I wanted to focus just on movies where photographs are deleted 
> (burned, destroyed) or denied but I only know (nostalgia) for Hollis Frampton 
> and the project Found Monochromes by David Batchelor (slides). Does anyone 
> know other films where the main purpose is the destruction or the 
> invisibility of photographs?
> 
> On the other hand I have started a list of films made from photographs. There 
> are dozens of films (some of them animations) where the object of analysis 
> are still images, from filmed Polaroids to appropriation of advertising 
> images from magazines or the accumulation of digital images found on the 
> internet:
> 
> Transformation by Holding Time by Paul de Nooijer
> Pasadena Freeway Stills and Hand Held Day by Gary Beydler
> Production Stills by Morgan Fisher
> Frank Film by Frank Mouris
> Boy Meets Girl by Eugènia Balcells
> Wall by Takashi Ito
> Photodiary by Takashi Ito
> Clandestine Porn Film by Augustin Gimel
> DIES IRAE by Jean Gabriel Périot
> The World as Will and Representation de Roy Arden
> 
> Do others come to mind?
> 
> Thank you,
> Albert Alcoz
> --
> http://albertalcoz.com/
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

j/PrM


*****

Take care; be well; wash your hands; safeguard all the distances!

John Muse
Assistant Professor of Visual Studies
Haverford College
he/him/his
j=John PrM=Professor Muse
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
https://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
https://www.instagram.com/johnmuseartist/
https://www.facebook.com/jmuse99

*



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[issue39682] pathlib.Path objects can be used as context managers

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

Wrong thread sorry

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[issue39856] glob : some 'unix style' glob items are not supported

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

Brace expansion does not currently exist in Python's glob. You'd have to use a 
third party module to expand the braces and then run glob on each returned 
pattern, or use a third party module that implements a glob that does it for 
you.

Shameless plug:

Brace expansion: https://github.com/facelessuser/bracex

Glob that does it for you (when the feature is enabled): 
https://github.com/facelessuser/wcmatch

Now whether Python should integrate such behavior by default is another 
question.

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[issue39682] pathlib.Path objects can be used as context managers

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

Brace expansion does not currently exist in Python's glob. You'd have to use a 
third party module to expand the braces and then run glob on each returned 
pattern, or use a third party module that implements a glob that does it for 
you.

Shameless plug:

Brace expansion: https://github.com/facelessuser/bracex

Glob that does it for you (when the feature is enabled): 
https://github.com/facelessuser/wcmatch

Now whether Python should integrate such behavior by default is another 
question.

--
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Re: [Frameworks] Other Cinema Spring 2020 Calendar

[John Muse]

Super news!  Thanks!

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 7:42 PM, craig baldwin  wrote:
> 
> Hello film fans! We're very pleased to be able to share with you Other 
> Cinema's Spring 2020 Calendar: http://www.othercinema.com/calendar/index.html
> <11. Volcano (1).jpg>
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j/PrM

*****

John Muse
Visiting Assistant Professor
Haverford College
he/him/his
j=John PrM=Professor Muse
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/
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[issue39532] Pathlib: handling of `.` in paths and patterns creates unmatchable paths

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

The more I think about this, I think the normalization of paths is actually 
fine, it is the normalization of the patterns that is problematic, or more the 
difference in normalization. I could live with the pattern normalization of `.` 
and trailing `/` if it was at least consistent with what happens in paths. I 
still find the modification of the glob pattern in this manner surprising, but 
at least it wouldn't' cause cases like this to fail.

--

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[issue39532] Pathlib: handling of `.` in paths and patterns creates unmatchable paths

[Isaac Muse]

New submission from Isaac Muse :

It appears that the pathlib library strips out `.` in glob paths when they 
represent a directory. This is kind of a naive approach in my opinion, but I 
understand what was trying to be achieved.

When a path is given to pathlib, it normalizes it by stripping out 
non-essential things like `.` that represent directories, and strips out 
trailing `/` to give a path without unnecessary parts (the stripping of 
trailing `/` is another discussion).

But there is a small twist, when given an empty string or just a dot, you need 
to have something as the directory, so it allows a `.`.

So, it appears the idea was since this normalization is applied to paths, why 
not apply it to the glob patterns as well, so it does. But the special logic 
that ensures you don't have an empty string to match does not get applied to 
the glob patterns. This creates unmatchable paths:

>>> import pathlib
>>> str(pathlib.Path('.'))
'.'
>>> pathlib.Path('.').match('.')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
  File "C:\Python36\lib\pathlib.py", line 939, in match
raise ValueError("empty pattern")
ValueError: empty pattern

I wonder if it is appropriate to apply this `.` stripping to glob patterns. 
Personally, I think the glob pattern, except for slash normalization, should 
remain unchanged, but if it is to be normalized above and beyond this, at the 
very least should use the exact same logic that is applied to the paths.

--
components: Library (Lib)
messages: 361259
nosy: Isaac Muse
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Pathlib: handling of `.` in paths and patterns creates unmatchable paths
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.8

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[issue29249] Pathlib glob ** bug

[Isaac Muse]

Isaac Muse  added the comment:

I think the idea of adding a globmatch function is a decent idea.

That is what I did in a library I wrote to get more out of glob than what 
Python offered out of the box: 
https://facelessuser.github.io/wcmatch/pathlib/#purepathglobmatch. 

Specifically the differences are globmatch is just a pure match of a path, it 
doesn't do the implied `**` at the beginning of a pattern like match does. 
While it doesn't enable `**` by default, such features are controlled by flags

>>> pathlib.Path("a/b/c/d/e.txt").match('a/*/**/*', flags=pathlib.GLOBSTAR)
True

This isn't to promote my library, but more to say, as a user, I found such 
functionality worth adding. I think it would be generally nice to have such 
functionality in some form in Python by default. Maybe something called 
`globmatch` that offers that could be worthwhile.

--
nosy: +Isaac Muse

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Re: ssl3_get_record:wrong version number

[David Muse]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:19:28 -0800
Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 05:53:53PM -0500, David Muse wrote:
> > I keep getting "ssl3_get_record:wrong version number" errors when I try to 
> > run "fedpkg build", usually during checkout.  Searching the archives, it 
> > looks like the last time someone reported this, it was during a planned 
> > outage, but I don't see anything down on the fedora infrastructure status 
> > page.  Is this error expected at the moment, or am I doing something wrong?
> > 
> 
> Since I guess no good deed goes unpunished, I am trying to reinstall
> some proxy servers and apparently they didn't properly remove from dns.
> :( 
> 
> I think it should be all back to normal now, but if not, it should
> definitely be back in a bit once I am done with this provisioning. 

Looks like it's working now.  Thanks!

> 
> Sorry again for instability. ;( 
> 
> kevin
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ssl3_get_record:wrong version number

[David Muse]

I keep getting "ssl3_get_record:wrong version number" errors when I try to run 
"fedpkg build", usually during checkout.  Searching the archives, it looks like 
the last time someone reported this, it was during a planned outage, but I 
don't see anything down on the fedora infrastructure status page.  Is this 
error expected at the moment, or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,

David
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: [Frameworks] Looking for references addressing/recalling insomnia

[John Muse]

"Wide Awake" by Alan Berliner.  See 
http://www.alanberliner.com/first_cousin.php?pag_id=4

j

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 1:36 PM, Jessica Arseneau  wrote:
> 
> Dear Frameworkers,
> 
> 
> I am currently working on the theme of insomnia/chronic sleeplessness for a 
> thesis, as well as for a forthcoming video and performance work. I would be 
> curious and grateful to know if you can recall films/videos/contemporary art 
> where there's something related to insomnia as a mental or cultural state (a 
> scene, a spark triggering a plot, as a topic, etc.).
> 
> Here is my current list:
> 
> Ingmar Bergman, Hour of the Wolf
> Danillo Correale, No More Sleep No More
> Sofia Coppola, Lost in Translation
> Sean Ellis, Cash Back
> Jim Jarmusch, Only Lovers Left Alive
> Iñigo Manglano-Ovalle, Sonambulo II (Blue)
> Christopher Nolan, Insomnia
> Martin Scorsese, Taxis Driver
> Andrei Tarkovsky, Solaris (because there is no distinction between day and 
> night, and the quote by Dr. Snaut: "Mankind has lost the ability to sleep")
> Wim Wenders, Paris, Texas
> 
> Exhibition Insomnia in art space Bonniers Konsthall (Katarina Löfström, 
> Downhill, Carsten Höller, Two Roaming Beds, Rafaël Rozendaal’s 15 websites, 
> Kate Cooper’s animations)
> 
> 
> Many thanks!
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> Jessica Arseneau
> jessarseneau.github.io
> +49 17627787032
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j=john PrM=Professor Muse
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[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

[Lisa Sass @muse]

You’re welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus, link to a 
followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.

Sent from my TRS-80

> On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong  wrote:
> 
> Thank you! This may well have been it!
> 
>> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse  wrote:
>> 
>>  Was it David Van
>>  Edwards? [1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>> 
>>  ~Lisa Sass
>>  Sent from my TRS-80
>>  On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com>
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  Hi everyone,
>>  over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK Lute
>>  Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
>>  players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was likely a
>>  fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
>>  compelling argument at the time.
>>  Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
>>  available?
>>  Thanks in advance!
>>  Edward
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>>  2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
>>  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

[Lisa Sass @muse]

   Was it David Van
   Edwards? [1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm

   ~Lisa Sass
   Sent from my TRS-80
   On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   Hi everyone,
   over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK Lute
   Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
   players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was likely a
   fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
   compelling argument at the time.
   Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
   available?
   Thanks in advance!
   Edward
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[Frameworks] Old heads! A Paul at UPenn.

[John Muse]

Hi, folks.  I met someone at a party who had been a student of a cinema person 
at UPenn, a Paul who would have taught experimental film, “flicker films” and 
"crazy stuff."  Likely in the 80’s.  Maybe affiliated with Cinema 16.  

Thoughts?

Thanks! 

j

*****

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
j=john PrM=Professor Muse
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Forwarded from Massart Faculty

[John Muse]

Another turn of the screw:

https://www.artforum.com/news/massart-embroiled-in-controversy-over-resignation-of-filmmaker-saul-levine-74966

j

> On Apr 12, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Jon Behrens <bolex...@msn.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you Ed
> For sharing this
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:22 PM, Deana LeBlanc <leblanc.de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Emotion vs. reason? His live video got us PUMPED and struck a cord- we who 
>> were watching were cheering, (crying a bit admittedly). Even had musicians 
>> riding along to its It speaks to something bigger and is effectively 
>> cathartic- the performance, the storytelling, while also being a testimony 
>> of information. Two things going on at once, important to distinguish. But 
>> this also makes sense- the statement from Mass Art Faculty- glad to hear 
>> from them. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, April 11, 2018, Ed Halter <h...@edhalter.com> wrote:
>> Hey Frameworks
>> 
>> Felt I should share this announcement that was forwarded to me from the 
>> Massart faculty.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> TO THE MASSART COMMUNITY:
>> 
>> The faculty and staff of the Film/Video department demand that Professor 
>> Saul Levine stop his
>> lies about recent events at Mass Art and his cyber-bullying against his 
>> colleagues.
>> 
>> It is because of Professor Levine’s very public attacks and 
>> misrepresentations that we feel
>> obliged to correct his version of the complaints against him.
>> 
>> He has bullied his colleagues and created an abusive working environment 
>> over many years.
>> 
>> He has derailed and destroyed important discussions about urgent 
>> departmental and curricular
>> issues.
>> 
>> This is NOT an issue of academic freedom. No one at Mass Art made any effort 
>> to censor or
>> punish Professor Levine for screening his film or any other film he has 
>> shown over the years.
>> No one forced him to retire.The decision to retire is entirely Professor 
>> Levine’s.
>> 
>> We recognize Professor Levine as a brilliant artist and programmer and are 
>> thankful for his
>> contributions to the department and to Massart.It is extremely painful to 
>> see his toxic rant
>> against the department, besmearing the College and insulting us by name 
>> while claiming
>> himself as the victim.
>> 
>> As artists, teachers and mentors, it is our responsibility to stand up when 
>> we are bullied and to
>> treat each other with respect. It is also our duty to foster an open, 
>> respectful, and collegial
>> environment for our students.
>> 
>> Soon-Mi Yoo, Chair
>> Ericka Beckman, Professor
>> Gretchen Skogerson, Professor
>> Joe Briganti, Studio Manager, Video Area
>> Kim Keown, Studio Manager, Film Area
>> ___
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Labor Movement films?

[John Muse]

Two films by Vicky Funari:

Maquilapolis: City of Factories (2006) 
http://www.pbs.org/pov/maquilapolis/film-description/
Live Nude Girls Unite! (2000) 
https://femfilm.swarthmore.edu/films/live-nude-girls-unite/

See http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0298586/

j


> On Apr 9, 2018, at 8:17 PM, Escobar López Almudena <hide...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Joaquim Jordá Numax Presenta (1980) and its sequel Veinte años no es nada 
> (2005)
> 
> -- 
> Almudena Escobar Lopez
> Ph.D. student in Visual and Cultural Studies
> University of Rochester
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 7:20 PM, Pablo de Ocampo <pablodeoca...@front.bc.ca> 
> wrote:
> Berwick Street Collective's Nightcleaners
> Duncan Campbell's Make It New John
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Sebastian Wiedemann 
> <wiedemann.sebast...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps you will be interest in my film "Los (De)pendientes"
> https://vimeo.com/98099702
> Best,
> Sebastian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‌
>  Sent with Mailtrack
> 
> 2018-04-09 16:23 GMT-03:00 Elizabeth McMahon <elizmcma...@gmail.com>:
> I think my suggestions from yesterday got bounced (my account was disabled 
> due to too many bounces), so I'm adding them again.
> 
> They are both film/videographies from UC Berkeley:
> 
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/LaborVid.html
> 
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/labormovies.html
> 
> Elizabeth
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 9, 2018, Michael Streicher Metzger 
> <michael.metz...@northwestern.edu> wrote:
> John Hanson and Rob Nilsson’s NORTHERN LIGHTS is a gorgeous piece of American 
> independent filmmaking about agricultural labor struggles.
> 
>  
> 
> From: FrameWorks <frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com> on behalf of 
> Brandon Walley <brand...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Date: Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 2:23 PM
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Subject: [Frameworks] Labor Movement films?
> 
>  
> 
> Looking for experimental, nonfiction, feature or shorts that deal with the 
> works right, labor unions or related for a May Day screening. Suggestions?
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sebastian Wiedemann
> http://swiedemann.tumblr.com/
> http://wavesproject.tumblr.com/
> http://hambrecine.com/
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pablo de Ocampo
> Exhibitions Curator
> Western Front
> 
> 303 East 8th Avenue
> Vancouver BC V5T 1S1
> Canada
> 
> T. +1.604.876.9343
> F. +1.604.876.4099
> E. pablodeoca...@front.bc.ca
> W. www.front.bc.ca
> 
> coming up:
> These Hands | Jeneen Frei Njootli, Gabrielle L'Hirondelle Hill, Chandra 
> Melting Tallow, Tania Willard, Laura Huertas Millán, Flora M’mbugu Schelling, 
> Berwick Street Collective| Exhibition opening 22 March @ 7pm
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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j/PrM

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visual media scholar
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he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Saul Levine & MassArt: resources

[John Muse]

Hi, Scott.  Cryptic!  I’m sure the situation is more complicated than we know, 
and am here only sharing information as I find it.  The only counter narrative 
I’ve discovered so far is the one published in the Boston Globe:

> Kim Keown, a former MassArt student who said she first saw the film years ago 
> with no warning about its graphic content, said cautionary notice is the 
> critical issue.
> 
> “Saul has bullied and abused other faculty and staff at MassArt for years,” 
> said Keown, who now works as a studio manager in the school’s film area. “I 
> have nothing against the film or this kind of artwork being made or shown, 
> but with [no] warning [it] can make one uncomfortable and unsafe. I was his 
> student; and I did not speak out. If I had, back then, I would have been 
> ridiculed.”


See 
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/03/31/massart-professor-says-school-ousted-him-after-student-complaints/rY0bKt12T1DrhJZ8ocYKJP/story.html

I see two issues that are entangled: 1., Title IX and due process, which is 
worthy of serious exploration, and according to Saul’s report is at issue here. 
 And 2. changing standards for “good” vs. “bad” provocation, which you gloss 
with "things that seemed passionate and committed to one generation now seeming 
outrageous to another.”

I’m equally interested in how both matters play out in this case.  But my 
emotions are all on Saul’s side.  Admittedly, I’m using the latter to 
understand the former.  For now, that seems ok, but I’ll certainly try to be 
cautious until I learn more.  

j



> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:01 PM, Scott MacDonald <smacd...@hamilton.edu> wrote:
> 
> PS John,
> 
> I'm hearing (and of course this would have to be the case) that the situation 
> with Saul and MassArt is more complicated than I'd originally understood--and 
> I suspect that there's an element here of things that seemed passionate and 
> committed to one generation now seeming outrageous to another.
> 
> Like, I expect, most everyone who teaches film these days, this feels like a 
> strange and uncomfortable time (trigger warnings, etc.). It's easy for anyone 
> to jump to conclusions. 
> 
> I don't know anything about Saul's resources, but hopefully retirement will 
> be good to him, even if it's been reached in a painful and stressful way. 
> 
> Scott
> 
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 6:42 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Surprised that I haven’t read anything here on the recent news that Saul 
> Levine "was pushed out of the Massachusetts College of Art and Design after 
> administrators accused him of 'harming students' by showing his film Notes 
> After Long Silence, 1989, to his senior thesis class.”
> 
> Here are a few resources:
> 
> Saul’s original post detailing his decision to “[retire] from MassArt,” as he 
> says, and his reasons: 
> https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10215932754649479=1165322620
> 
> The Artforum article: 
> https://www.artforum.com/news/filmmaker-saul-levine-leaves-massart-following-dispute-over-artwork-74844
> 
> Indiewire article: 
> http://www.indiewire.com/2018/03/saul-levine-mass-art-notes-after-long-silence-1201945678/
> 
> Saul’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/saullevine
> 
> Films mentioned in the Artforum article include "Notes After a Long Silence" 
> https://vimeo.com/73242778 and “The Big Stick / An Old Reel” 
> https://vimeo.com/89886468
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> ___
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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[Frameworks] Saul Levine & MassArt: resources

[John Muse]

Surprised that I haven’t read anything here on the recent news that Saul Levine 
"was pushed out of the Massachusetts College of Art and Design after 
administrators accused him of 'harming students' by showing his film Notes 
After Long Silence, 1989, to his senior thesis class.”

Here are a few resources:

Saul’s original post detailing his decision to “[retire] from MassArt,” as he 
says, and his reasons: 
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10215932754649479=1165322620

The Artforum article: 
https://www.artforum.com/news/filmmaker-saul-levine-leaves-massart-following-dispute-over-artwork-74844

Indiewire article: 
http://www.indiewire.com/2018/03/saul-levine-mass-art-notes-after-long-silence-1201945678/

Saul’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/saullevine 

Films mentioned in the Artforum article include "Notes After a Long Silence" 
https://vimeo.com/73242778 and “The Big Stick / An Old Reel” 
https://vimeo.com/89886468

j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] question - 'the body/artist anatomies' in experimental film

[John Muse]

Stan Brakhage, Act of Seeing with One’s Own Eyes (1971)
Anne Severson, Near the Big Chakra (1971)

> On Feb 26, 2018, at 9:05 AM, Scott MacDonald <smacd...@hamilton.edu> wrote:
> 
> Seth, check out:
> 
> Geography of the Body by Willard Maas (1943)
> Fly by Yoko Ono
> 
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Seth Pimlott 
> <seth.piml...@network.rca.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear Frameworkers,
> 
> I am working with some young artists on an artists' anatomy - a  film about a 
> body - drawn from the experiences of the group. 
> 
> We have looked at the work of Ana Mendieta, and Derek Jarman's Blue for 
> inspiration.
> 
> But I wanted to ask a question. I wondered if there were some other films 
> that you might recommend  - films that might be described as 'subjective' 
> maps of the body in one way or another?
> 
> Thank you very much for your time,
> 
> Seth
> 
> -- 
> Seth Pimlott
> www.sethpimlott.com
> 
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visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] A desktop video

[John Muse]

Thanks, Albert!  Was the someone on this list?  I don’t recall seeing it, but 
I’ll look!

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Albert Alcoz <albertal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Someone was looking for desktops videos by artists​ but i can not find the 
> previous emails.​
> 
> Here is ​a good ​one ​named ​OS Love ​(2016) ​by Luc Gut​:​
> https://vimeo.com/ondemand/osloveen
> 
> 
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*****

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visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Thanks, Anna!  Great addition!

> On Oct 27, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Anna Kipervaser <anna.kiperva...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> HOMAGE BY ASSASSINATION, Elia Suleiman, 25 minutes, 1992
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L25WlRh6OlI
> 
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*

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haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Thanks, Pablo.  I’m eager to see this one.  I wonder if Sarah Christman's 
Dear Bill Gates (2006) is the progenitor of Dear Steve? 

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Pablo de Ocampo <pablodeoca...@front.bc.ca> 
> wrote:
> 
> John
> 
> Though it's not exactly a desktop doc, I always thought Herman Asselberghs 
> Dear Steve would make an interesting prologue/epilogue/counterpoint to this 
> new genre of work:
> 
> http://www.augusteorts.be/projects/48/dear-steve
> 
> Pablo
> 
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 4:28 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hive mind!  I’m looking for films that use the desktop and the graphical user 
> interface as the ground and foundation for essays, documentaries, narrative 
> films.  Below is my preliminary list of films.  Please share works that 
> either take the desktop environment for granted, critically engage with it as 
> a space and temporal structure, or use it occasionally but incisively.  What 
> interests me most: how the window, pop-up, drag and drop, double-click, etc. 
> create new editing protocols and rules.  Or how they ruin everything good and 
> right and holy about film.
> 
> So far I’m thinking about:
> 
> Camille Henrot Grosse Fatigue (2013)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Henrot
> 
> Patrick Cederberg & Walter Woodman, Noah (2013)
> https://vimeo.com/65935223
> 
> Nick Briz: Apple Computers (2013)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GyvH3LApDI
> 
> Kevin B. Lee, Transformers: The Premake (2014)
> https://vimeo.com/94101046
> 
> Theo Anthony: Spirit Guide - Night Tremors Mix (2013)
> http://www.theoanthony.net/installation/2014/1/21/spirit-guide-night-tremors-mix-2013
> 
> Evan Meaney: Big Sleep (2015)
> http://evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/#start
> 
> Sondra Perry: Lineage for a Multiple-Monitor Workstation: Number One (2015)
> https://vimeo.com/131805970
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pablo de Ocampo
> Exhibitions Curator
> Western Front
> 
> 303 East 8th Avenue
> Vancouver BC V5T 1S1
> Canada
> 
> T. +1.604.876.9343
> F. +1.604.876.4099
> E. pablodeoca...@front.bc.ca
> W. www.front.bc.ca
> 
> on view:
> Another time, this time, one time | Steffani Jemison + Justin Hicks | 
> September 22 - October 28, 2017 
> 
> coming up:
> apparatus for the circulation of Indigenous voices and ideas into the air | 
> Duane Linklater | Opening November 9, 2017
> 
> 
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Wow!  I love the look of this.  Thanks, Anna.

j

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:18 AM, Anna Dabrowska <a.d.dabrow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> All that is solid by L. Henderson
> 
> https://vimeo.com/102666180
> 
> On 25 October 2017 at 09:11, Aman Wadhan <amanwad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello John,
> 
> Memories of the following film leap to mind; you might find it interesting: 
> 
> 'Noah' (2013, 17 min.)
> dir. Walter Woodman & Patrick Cederberg
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/3017108/you-need-to-see-this-17-minute-film-set-entirely-on-a-teens-computer-screen
> 
> Best,
> Aman.
> 
> On Wednesday, October 25, 2017, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hive mind!  I’m looking for films that use the desktop and the graphical user 
> interface as the ground and foundation for essays, documentaries, narrative 
> films.  Below is my preliminary list of films.  Please share works that 
> either take the desktop environment for granted, critically engage with it as 
> a space and temporal structure, or use it occasionally but incisively.  What 
> interests me most: how the window, pop-up, drag and drop, double-click, etc. 
> create new editing protocols and rules.  Or how they ruin everything good and 
> right and holy about film.
> 
> So far I’m thinking about:
> 
> Camille Henrot Grosse Fatigue (2013)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Henrot
> 
> Patrick Cederberg & Walter Woodman, Noah (2013)
> https://vimeo.com/65935223
> 
> Nick Briz: Apple Computers (2013)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GyvH3LApDI
> 
> Kevin B. Lee, Transformers: The Premake (2014)
> https://vimeo.com/94101046
> 
> Theo Anthony: Spirit Guide - Night Tremors Mix (2013)
> http://www.theoanthony.net/installation/2014/1/21/spirit-guide-night-tremors-mix-2013
> 
> Evan Meaney: Big Sleep (2015)
> http://evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/#start
> 
> Sondra Perry: Lineage for a Multiple-Monitor Workstation: Number One (2015)
> https://vimeo.com/131805970
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Anna Dabrowska
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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[Python-modules-team] Есть решение!

[Muse]

Здравствуйте, python-dja...@packages.debian.org

Есть возможность авторизации через соцсети с фотографией, именем, фамилией  ;-) 
 
Зарегистрироваться

--
С уважением,  
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Re: [Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Yep, Noah is on my list.  See below.

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Aman Wadhan <amanwad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello John,
> 
> Memories of the following film leap to mind; you might find it interesting: 
> 
> 'Noah' (2013, 17 min.)
> dir. Walter Woodman & Patrick Cederberg
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/3017108/you-need-to-see-this-17-minute-film-set-entirely-on-a-teens-computer-screen
> 
> Best,
> Aman.
> 
> On Wednesday, October 25, 2017, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hive mind!  I’m looking for films that use the desktop and the graphical user 
> interface as the ground and foundation for essays, documentaries, narrative 
> films.  Below is my preliminary list of films.  Please share works that 
> either take the desktop environment for granted, critically engage with it as 
> a space and temporal structure, or use it occasionally but incisively.  What 
> interests me most: how the window, pop-up, drag and drop, double-click, etc. 
> create new editing protocols and rules.  Or how they ruin everything good and 
> right and holy about film.
> 
> So far I’m thinking about:
> 
> Camille Henrot Grosse Fatigue (2013)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Henrot
> 
> Patrick Cederberg & Walter Woodman, Noah (2013)
> https://vimeo.com/65935223
> 
> Nick Briz: Apple Computers (2013)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GyvH3LApDI
> 
> Kevin B. Lee, Transformers: The Premake (2014)
> https://vimeo.com/94101046
> 
> Theo Anthony: Spirit Guide - Night Tremors Mix (2013)
> http://www.theoanthony.net/installation/2014/1/21/spirit-guide-night-tremors-mix-2013
> 
> Evan Meaney: Big Sleep (2015)
> http://evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/#start
> 
> Sondra Perry: Lineage for a Multiple-Monitor Workstation: Number One (2015)
> https://vimeo.com/131805970
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Check!  I have that one in my list.

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 10:44 AM, tanya g <golde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Big_Sleep TM (Evan Meaney and Amy Szczepanski, 2016)
> 
> http://www.evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/
> 
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:19 AM Anna Dabrowska <a.d.dabrow...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> All that is solid by L. Henderson
> 
> https://vimeo.com/102666180
> 
> On 25 October 2017 at 09:11, Aman Wadhan <amanwad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello John,
> 
> Memories of the following film leap to mind; you might find it interesting: 
> 
> 'Noah' (2013, 17 min.)
> dir. Walter Woodman & Patrick Cederberg
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/3017108/you-need-to-see-this-17-minute-film-set-entirely-on-a-teens-computer-screen
> 
> Best,
> Aman.
> 
> On Wednesday, October 25, 2017, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hive mind!  I’m looking for films that use the desktop and the graphical user 
> interface as the ground and foundation for essays, documentaries, narrative 
> films.  Below is my preliminary list of films.  Please share works that 
> either take the desktop environment for granted, critically engage with it as 
> a space and temporal structure, or use it occasionally but incisively.  What 
> interests me most: how the window, pop-up, drag and drop, double-click, etc. 
> create new editing protocols and rules.  Or how they ruin everything good and 
> right and holy about film.
> 
> So far I’m thinking about:
> 
> Camille Henrot Grosse Fatigue (2013)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Henrot
> 
> Patrick Cederberg & Walter Woodman, Noah (2013)
> https://vimeo.com/65935223
> 
> Nick Briz: Apple Computers (2013)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GyvH3LApDI
> 
> Kevin B. Lee, Transformers: The Premake (2014)
> https://vimeo.com/94101046
> 
> Theo Anthony: Spirit Guide - Night Tremors Mix (2013)
> http://www.theoanthony.net/installation/2014/1/21/spirit-guide-night-tremors-mix-2013
> 
> Evan Meaney: Big Sleep (2015)
> http://evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/#start
> 
> Sondra Perry: Lineage for a Multiple-Monitor Workstation: Number One (2015)
> https://vimeo.com/131805970
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
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> 
> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Anna Dabrowska
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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[Frameworks] Desktop documentary/essay/narrative

[John Muse]

Hive mind!  I’m looking for films that use the desktop and the graphical user 
interface as the ground and foundation for essays, documentaries, narrative 
films.  Below is my preliminary list of films.  Please share works that either 
take the desktop environment for granted, critically engage with it as a space 
and temporal structure, or use it occasionally but incisively.  What interests 
me most: how the window, pop-up, drag and drop, double-click, etc. create new 
editing protocols and rules.  Or how they ruin everything good and right and 
holy about film.

So far I’m thinking about:
 
Camille Henrot Grosse Fatigue (2013)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Henrot

Patrick Cederberg & Walter Woodman, Noah (2013)
https://vimeo.com/65935223

Nick Briz: Apple Computers (2013)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GyvH3LApDI

Kevin B. Lee, Transformers: The Premake (2014)
https://vimeo.com/94101046

Theo Anthony: Spirit Guide - Night Tremors Mix (2013)
http://www.theoanthony.net/installation/2014/1/21/spirit-guide-night-tremors-mix-2013

Evan Meaney: Big Sleep (2015)
http://evanmeaney.com/bigsleep/#start

Sondra Perry: Lineage for a Multiple-Monitor Workstation: Number One (2015)
https://vimeo.com/131805970

j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Requires for local install

[David Muse]

Hello list,

I have a package with many subpackages.  Some of the subpackages depend 
on libraries provided by other subpackages.


When downloading with yum/dnf, the rpm's know what they depend on, and 
the dnf/yum can figure out what to install to satisfy the dependencies. 
No problem there.


But, when doing a yum localinstall or dnf install with a local path, the 
user has to either install all rpm's or manually resolve dependencies.


Is it common to specify inter-subpackage dependencies using Requires to 
resolve this, or are users just on their own if they're installing 
packages manually?


Thanks!

David Muse
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: not all that qualified...

[David Muse]

Thanks everyone.  Good info.  I'll put it to good use.

Dave
david.m...@firstworks.com

On 6/1/2017 4:33 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:



Dne 1.6.2017 v 03:03 Susi Lehtola napsal(a):

On 05/31/2017 05:19 PM, Christopher wrote:

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:44 PM David Muse <david.m...@firstworks.com
<mailto:david.m...@firstworks.com>> wrote:

 Hello all,

 I have a fairly large package that needs review:
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1415612

 and I've been offered a few review swaps for it, but the trouble
is, I
 don't really feel well qualified to review packages yet.  I only
 maintain one other package (a pre-requisite for that one above)
and it's
 super simple.

 Should I just jump in anyway?  How is this kind of thing usually
 resolved?

At the risk of turning this into a "me too" thread, I want to thank
you for asking this question. I'm in the same situation. I'm not
comfortable reviewing packages yet. I'm sure there are others as
well. So, on behalf of all us in this same situation, thanks for
asking. I look forward to the advice that (hopefully) follows, from
those more experienced.


Sounds like a Catch-22: you can't get experience without reviewing
packages, but you don't want to review until you have more experience.

However, this is exactly why we have the sponsor system in place. I've
found it a good system that the sponsor should ask for a few informal
reviews from their sponsoree candidates, and the sponsor then does the
formal review, checking if the sponsoree missed anything.

Reviewing is nowadays a much simpler task than what it used to be,
thanks to the automated fedora-review process. It handles a lot of
things for you, but you still do have to go through some checklists by
hand.

I would suggest you do an informal review, and ask your sponsor, or
people on the list to check it for you.


These are good suggestions!

And I'd like to add that you can't loose anything doing informal reviews
for packages of your interest at any time.

E.g. if somebody ask for package review on this list and the package
catch your interest, then you can take a look how it is done or if you
see anything wrong and just add your feedback to the ticket. This does
not mean you need to finish the review and approved the package. The
review should be IMO collective work anyway. More eyes more see.

So my advice is "don't be afraid".


Vít
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not all that qualified...

[David Muse]

Hello all,

I have a fairly large package that needs review:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1415612

and I've been offered a few review swaps for it, but the trouble is, I 
don't really feel well qualified to review packages yet.  I only 
maintain one other package (a pre-requisite for that one above) and it's 
super simple.


Should I just jump in anyway?  How is this kind of thing usually resolved?

Thanks,

David
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: [Frameworks] looking for films, works of expanded cinema, web-based projects, and installations

[John Muse]

Thanks, Jesse.  The Smith!  Of course.

> On May 22, 2017, at 11:14 PM, Jesse Pires <jessepire...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The first few that come to mind: 
> 
> H.M. by Kerry Tribe
> Girl Chewing Gum by John Smith
> Candle by Neil Henderson 
> 
> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 9:13 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hive mind!  I’m beginning research on moving image media works that couple 
> and complicate the relations between the following events, with an emphasis 
> on the time they take: the time-of-the-profilmic-event, the 
> time-of-the-recording-apparatus, the time-of-the-assembly-protocols, the 
> time-of-the-display-apparatus, and the time-of-the-viewing-experience.
> 
> A mouthful, I know!  But these events are relatively autonomous, as we know, 
> and ubiquitously so.  Time lapse, slow motion, closed-circuit works and delay 
> systems, and even the simplest continuity edit, which purports to build a 
> single event for the viewer out of disparate events before the camera, 
> partake of this trouble.  But I’m looking for works that critically 
> investigate and exploit these relations.  Man with the Movie Camera, of 
> course and as usual, made all of these features explicit through 
> undercranking, overcranking, animation, jumpcuts, cross-cutting times and 
> spaces, superimpositions, split-screens, and the use of the movie house 
> itself.
> 
> So many other works from the tradition of experimental film to consider.  
> Things I already love: Ernie Gehr’s Serene Velocity, Nancy Holt’s Boomerang, 
> and Ken Jacob’s Tom Tom and his Nervous Magic Lantern performances.  From the 
> conceptual media side of the aisle: Bruce Nauman’s Live-Taped Video Corridor, 
> Dan Graham’s tape delay works, Douglas Gordon’s 24 Hour Psycho, and many of 
> David Claerbout’s works.
> 
> Help please!  I’m looking for other canonical materials, especially expanded 
> cinema works, and more contemporary efforts, ones that split these relations 
> even further: between image capture and image playback, there is processing, 
> whether optical and analog or digital: compression schemes, datamoshing, and 
> spline morphing, i.e., "bullet time" and other interpolation protocols.
> 
> Comments and clarifying questions appreciated.
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visual media scholar
> haverford college
> he/him/his
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> ___
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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[Frameworks] looking for films, works of expanded cinema, web-based projects, and installations

[John Muse]

Hive mind!  I’m beginning research on moving image media works that couple and 
complicate the relations between the following events, with an emphasis on the 
time they take: the time-of-the-profilmic-event, the 
time-of-the-recording-apparatus, the time-of-the-assembly-protocols, the 
time-of-the-display-apparatus, and the time-of-the-viewing-experience.  

A mouthful, I know!  But these events are relatively autonomous, as we know, 
and ubiquitously so.  Time lapse, slow motion, closed-circuit works and delay 
systems, and even the simplest continuity edit, which purports to build a 
single event for the viewer out of disparate events before the camera, partake 
of this trouble.  But I’m looking for works that critically investigate and 
exploit these relations.  Man with the Movie Camera, of course and as usual, 
made all of these features explicit through undercranking, overcranking, 
animation, jumpcuts, cross-cutting times and spaces, superimpositions, 
split-screens, and the use of the movie house itself.  

So many other works from the tradition of experimental film to consider.  
Things I already love: Ernie Gehr’s Serene Velocity, Nancy Holt’s Boomerang, 
and Ken Jacob’s Tom Tom and his Nervous Magic Lantern performances.  From the 
conceptual media side of the aisle: Bruce Nauman’s Live-Taped Video Corridor, 
Dan Graham’s tape delay works, Douglas Gordon’s 24 Hour Psycho, and many of 
David Claerbout’s works.   

Help please!  I’m looking for other canonical materials, especially expanded 
cinema works, and more contemporary efforts, ones that split these relations 
even further: between image capture and image playback, there is processing, 
whether optical and analog or digital: compression schemes, datamoshing, and 
spline morphing, i.e., "bullet time" and other interpolation protocols.

Comments and clarifying questions appreciated.   

j/PrM

*****

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [swift-evolution] [Pitch] Move All Discussions To Github Issues

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

All of your points have been discussed and some of us will prefer Discourse
to generate mailing format. I remember there is an option for "Mailing List
mode" in Discourse.

You can trace from this discussion and there were a long separate threads
few months back which you can trace manually.
https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170206/031657.html

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Mohamed Ebrahim Afifi via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Thanks for your reply! I think that is very good news that the burden of
> the mailing list is so obvious for everyone!
>
> I think Github issues would be better though, the community is used to it
> and it makes more sense as it needs almost no configurations, no operation
> costs or maintenance. If the community decided to move to it we can move to
> it immediately, we don't need to wait. It is a natural next step since the
> proposals are maintained there and Swift itself is maintained there.
>
>
> Do you have a link to that discussion?
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Mohamed Afifi
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Adrian Zubarev <
> adrian.zuba...@devandartist.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> you’re a bit too late. A forum will come at some point (Discourse).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Adrian Zubarev
>> Sent with Airmail
>>
>> Am 1. Mai 2017 um 13:30:55, Mohamed Ebrahim Afifi via swift-evolution (
>> swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is actually not a proposal to improve Swift, it is actually a
>> proposal to improve the way we use it to improve Swift. :)
>>
>> It is extremely hard to monitor discussions going over e-mails.
>>
>>1. I always get lost between e-mails especially if there are so many
>>replies
>>2. It is extremely hard to reach the original idea/first e-mail.
>>3. New people (like me) usually get lost between e-mails and only
>>focus on their own idea and don't care about other's ideas because for
>>example, I don't know how to reply to an idea if I'm not subscribed to the
>>mailing list. In other words, It’s not a system that encourages follow-up
>>actions.
>>4. You can not browse subjects and all replies in one place.
>>5. You cannot follow a specific topic and ignore others.
>>
>> That was the problem!
>>
>> My suggestion is to move all discussions from this mailing list to GitHub
>> issues. For the following reasons.
>>
>>1. Easier to browse all topics.
>>2. You can see open topics and closed topics. So, if a topic is done
>>we can close it.
>>3. You can subscribe to a topic and follow all replies and reply.
>>4. Markdown support. Currently, I see people create a markdown page
>>on Github and send a link to it on the mailing list. But having the
>>markdown inline in the topic is a great benefit. Also, replies can be in
>>markdown as well.
>>5. It's closer to Proposals (Since we already using Github for
>>tracking proposals why don't we use it also to track pitching ideas).
>>People like to have everything gathered together in one place and don't
>>need to remember the Github repo and mailing list.
>>6. Github has https://developer.github.com/v3/issues/
>>
>>
>> I think using Github issues instead of the mailing lists will increase
>> the engagement of the Swift community with proposals.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Mohamed Afifi
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>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0168: Multi-Line String Literals

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

This would be prefer to follow Scala multiline string which look

1) //Default
var code = """header
paragraph1"""

*Output:*
>header
>paragraph1

2)
var code = """
...header...
...paragraph1...
""".replace("...")

*Output:*
>header
>paragraph1

3)
var code = """
 |..header...
 |..paragraph1...
""".stripLeadingSpace()

*Output:*
>header...
>paragraph1...

4)
var code = """

import Foundation
print("Hello World!")

""".code()

*Output:*
>
>import Foundation
>print("Hello World!")
>

5)
//To remove all new lines
var code = """
import Foundation

import Cocoa

print("Hello World!")
""".compactLine()

*Output:*
>import Foundation
>import Cocoa
>print("Hello World!")



On Multiline String collection

6) If we are importing many sources from 3rd parties API, we won't know if
their code is properly indent, some use tab and some use 2 or 4-space. This
would look better on Swift Playground app.

var *stories* = {
"""
Chapter1
第1章

Introduction to A
""",
"""
Chapter2
第2章

Introduction to B
""",
"""
//Code Example
import Foundation
"""
}

We can loop or apply to certain collection
stories(3).code()



On Saturday, April 15, 2017, Ricardo Parada via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I agree that it is not obvious.
>
> At one point I argued that the trailing newline on the last line should be
> stripped. But for this reason and others I am now in the camp that thinks
> we should leave the trailing newline alone.
>
> If we don't want to include the trailing newline we can always do this:
>
> let str = """
>Line 1
>Line 2\
>"""
>
> This is were it's difficult to get consensus.
>
> Regards,
> Ricardo
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2017, at 5:54 PM, BJ Homer via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I’m not saying that the + operator should automatically add a newline. I’m
> saying that both strings should contain a trailing newline, such that the
> visible result is the same.
>
> By contrast, this would feel really strange:
>
> let a = """
> This is line one
> This is line two
>
>
> """
>
>
> let b = """
> This is line three
> This is line four
>
> """
>
>
> (a + b) == """
> This is line one
> This is line two
> This is line three
> This is line four
> """
>
>
> On initial intuition, it seems strange that ‘a’ has a blatantly visible
> blank line at the end which seemingly “disappears” when the strings are
> concatenated. If I think about it for a bit, I can understand why that
> would be the case, but I think it’s non-obvious.
>
> -BJ
>
> On Apr 14, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
>
> I disagree. I expect the last result to be from `a + "\n" + b`, for the
> reasons I outlined earlier.
>
> The concatenation operator + does not introduce implied separators when
> joining strings. There is no reason to think that it should for multi-line
> strings specifically.
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 16:35 BJ Homer via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Consider these two examples:
>>
>> let string_1 = """foo"""
>>
>>
>> let string_2 = """
>> foo
>> """
>>
>> What’s the intuitive result you’d expect without taking all the long talk
>> from the list into account?
>>
>> Personally, I’d say string_1 == string_2 is true.
>>
>>
>> I think it’s reasonable to expect them to be different, actually. I might
>> call these “single-line” and “multi-line” mode strings. The single-line
>> mode is primarily useful for being able to include unescaped double-quotes
>> in the string. If you’re in multi-line mode, though, it’s reasonable to be
>> thinking about things in terms of “lines”, and having a trailing newline
>> there seems reasonable. For example, I think it’s reasonable to expect this:
>>
>> let a = """
>> This is line one
>> This is line two"
>> """
>>
>> let b = """
>> This is line three
>> This is line four
>> """
>>
>> (a + b) == """
>> This is line one
>> This is line two
>> This is line three
>> This is line four
>> """
>>
>>
>> That seems like a reasonable model to work with multi-line strings.
>>
>> -BJ
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>>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0168: Multi-Line String Literals

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

In Javascript, this counted as 2 lines which is fine for rendering code,
not with HTML5 elements
import Foundation
print("Hello World!")

1st)
In Swift, it's clear to start multi-line on a new line
var code =
*"""*
Hello World
*"""*

If Swift cannot accept the 1st syntax, below 2nd and 3rd syntax could be
done better
2nd)
*var code = """*
Hello World
*"""*

3)
*var code = {*
*"""*
Hello World
*"""*
}

I love the 3rd syntax.



On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I think I found another argument of not to inject a new line after the
> last content line, even though it’s not a strong argument.
>
> Consider these two examples:
>
> let string_1 = """foo"""
>
>
> let string_2 = """
> foo
> """
>
> What’s the intuitive result you’d expect without taking all the long talk
> from the list into account?
>
> Personally, I’d say string_1 == string_2 is true.
>
> Now you’d might think how about the blank line as an example?
>
> let string_3 = """
>
> """
>
> However the equivalent for this would be:
>
> let string_4 = """\n"""
>
> Empty string in both variations:
>
> let string_5 = ""
>
>
> let string_6 = """
> """
>
>
>
> --
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
>
> Am 14. April 2017 um 03:08:58, Xiaodi Wu (xiaodi...@gmail.com) schrieb:
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:55 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon <
> br...@architechies.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 13, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
>>
>> You say "this is the example set by `print`", but I don't think anything
>>> else actually *follows* that example. No other I/O operation in Swift
>>> behaves this way.
>>>
>>
>> To be more accurate, it's not `print` that specifies this behavior, but
>> rather the standard output stream's implementation of
>> `TextOutputStream.write(_:)`. Swift *explicitly* leaves this choice up to
>> the TextOutputStream-conforming type. That is, the behavior is up to the
>> receiver and not the argument of a call to `TextOutputStream.write(_:)`.
>>
>>
>> I feel like I must be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here,
>> because I *think* what you're trying to say is that
>> `TextOutputStream.write(_:)` is what decides whether to add the terminator,
>> which is not only totally wrong (see https://github.com/apple/
>> swift/blob/adc54c8a4d13fbebfeb68244bac401ef2528d6d0/stdlib/
>> public/core/Print.swift#L260) but doesn't even make any sense since
>> there's a terminator parameter on `print` but none on `write(_:)`.
>>
>
> Hmm, you're right here with respect to `print()`. It is, however,
> explicitly contemplated in the documentation for
> `TextOutputStream.write(_:)` that conforming types can also determine
> whether or not to append a terminator, and which, inside their
> implementation of `write`. The example given in the documentation is:
>
> ```
> struct ASCIILogger: TextOutputStream {
> mutating func write(_ string: String) {
> let ascii = string.unicodeScalars.lazy.map { scalar in
> scalar == "\n"
>   ? "\n"
>   : scalar.escaped(asASCII: true)
> }
> print(ascii.joined(separator: ""), terminator: "")
> }
> }
> ```
>
>
>
>> --
>> Brent Royal-Gordon
>> Architechies
>>
>>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Pitch] Add an all algorithm to Sequence

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

In additional, containsAll(value: "123") is prefer and more natural as we
speak.


On Thursday, April 6, 2017, Muse M <james.le...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I accept "contains" for at least match one result, similar to OR.
> "containsOnly" is similar to AND for one element or more elements must
> contain same values and types.
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2017, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','swift-evolution@swift.org');>> wrote:
>
>> In JavaScipt they are known as "every" and "includes".
>>
>> In C# they are "TrueForAll" and "Exists".
>>
>> Not sure why "all" and "contains" is any less consistent.
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 05:50 Víctor Pimentel Rodríguez via
>> swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Hull via swift-evolution <
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On that note: ‘containsOnly' is still my favorite by a wide margin.  I
>>>> know it is longer than ‘all’, but it’s behavior is much clearer (especially
>>>> for those of us who have never used or heard of ‘all’ in other languages),
>>>> and it’s relationship with ‘contains’ is also very clear.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Also +1 to containsOnly for this very reason.
>>>
>>> In other languages (Python, Ruby, etc) that have an `all` method, they
>>> also have an `any` method, thus maintaining certain consistency.
>>>
>>> In the Swift standard library that `any` method is called `contains`, so
>>> `containsOnly` matches nicely that consistency.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Víctor Pimentel
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>
>>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Pitch] Add an all algorithm to Sequence

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I accept "contains" for at least match one result, similar to OR.
"containsOnly" is similar to AND for one element or more elements must
contain same values and types.

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> In JavaScipt they are known as "every" and "includes".
>
> In C# they are "TrueForAll" and "Exists".
>
> Not sure why "all" and "contains" is any less consistent.
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 05:50 Víctor Pimentel Rodríguez via swift-evolution
>  > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Hull via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On that note: ‘containsOnly' is still my favorite by a wide margin.  I
>>> know it is longer than ‘all’, but it’s behavior is much clearer (especially
>>> for those of us who have never used or heard of ‘all’ in other languages),
>>> and it’s relationship with ‘contains’ is also very clear.
>>>
>>
>> Also +1 to containsOnly for this very reason.
>>
>> In other languages (Python, Ruby, etc) that have an `all` method, they
>> also have an `any` method, thus maintaining certain consistency.
>>
>> In the Swift standard library that `any` method is called `contains`, so
>> `containsOnly` matches nicely that consistency.
>>
>> --
>> Víctor Pimentel
>> ___
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>> 
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>>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Pitch] Add an all algorithm to Sequence

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

At this stage, it's rather confuse to me, if return boolean, probably
sizeOf and boolOf is easier for me.

boolOf(equalTo:)
boolOf(matching:)

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Rien via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> > On 01 Apr 2017, at 16:10, David Hart  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 1 Apr 2017, at 11:32, Rien  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 01 Apr 2017, at 10:47, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 3:40 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >>>
>  On 1 Apr 2017, at 09:50, Brandon Trussell 
> wrote:
> 
>  I agree that based on the method name, I thought a collection would
> be returned.
> >>>
> >>> Now that I think more about it, I think you're right. It is confusing.
> Perhaps:
> >>>
> >>> allAre(equalTo: )
> >>> allAre(matching: )
> >>>
> >>> Well, if we're going to go full stdlib naming guidelines, shouldn't
> they be--
> >>>
> >>> ```
> >>> areAll(equalTo:)
> >>> areAll(matching:)
> >>> ```
> >>
> >>
> >> thatAre(equalTo: )
> >> thatAre(matching: )
> >
> > That would be confusing again. You'd get the impression that the
> functions are returning elements of the Sequence, not a Bool.
>
> Yup. my bad.
>
> Rien.
>
>
> >
> >> Regards,
> >> Rien
> >>
> >> Site: http://balancingrock.nl
> >> Blog: http://swiftrien.blogspot.com
> >> Github: http://github.com/Balancingrock
> >> Project: http://swiftfire.nl
> >>
> >>
> >>>
>  On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:36 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 1 Apr 2017, at 06:02, Will Stanton via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >
> > +1 to adding, but the name `all` suggests (to me) the return of
> another sequence, not a Bool.
> 
>  I'm not too concerned because the mandatory labels makes it clear.
> 
> > Perhaps the function name should be question-like?
> >
> > Suggesting: `membersSatisfy(condition:)` or `allSatisfy(condition:)`
> or maybe even just `satisfies(condition:)`
> > The question-like modifier/verb is necessary to suggest a Bool and
> IMO not a needless word.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Will Stanton
> >
> >> On Mar 31, 2017, at 11:28, Ben Cohen via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hopefully non-controversial, aside from the naming of the method
> and arguments, about which controversy abounds
> >
> > ___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
>  ___
>  swift-evolution mailing list
>  swift-evolution@swift.org
>  https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
> 
> 
>  --
>  Brandon
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> swift-evolution mailing list
> >>> swift-evolution@swift.org
> >>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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Re: [Frameworks] mental problems

[John Muse]

Also Bergman’s Persona

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Gae Savannah <4...@gaesavannah.com> wrote:
> 
> Cassavetes  Opening Night
> 
> Bergman  Though a Glass Darkly  
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Gae Savannah <4...@gaesavannah.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Gorgeous breakdown at the end of  Last Year at Marienbad  (Alan Resnais)
>> 
>> The Hole  (Tsai Ming Liang)  very crazy, intense breakdown.
>> 
>> Won Kar Wai  —which one to pick?—most of them have twisted coping methods 
>> for devastated emotional conditions.
>> 
>> Gus Van SantLast Days  (Cobain)  
>> 
>> 
>> I am also digging on childhood trauma theme for an MFA student.
>> Would appreciate anything on that angle…  
>> 
>> Gae Savannah
>> New York
>>   
>> 
>>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 12:49 PM, Elizabeth McMahon <elizmcma...@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Polanski's "Repulsion." Alan Parker's "Birdy." Adrian Lynne's "Jacob's 
>>> Ladder."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017, Gene Youngblood <ato...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Friends, I’m seeking recommendations of feature films with scenes that 
>>> attempt to visualize inner states of mind such as breakdowns (Vertigo), 
>>> nightmares (Spellbound), acid trips (Easy Rider) or any other kind of 
>>> hallucination (Altered States). Ecstatic or horrific doesn’t matter. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
> 
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j/PrM

*

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visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] mental problems

[John Muse]

Low hanging fruit: Donnie Darko, Requiem for a Dream, Apocalypse Now, The 
Conversation

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Gene Youngblood <ato...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Friends, I’m seeking recommendations of feature films with scenes that 
> attempt to visualize inner states of mind such as breakdowns (Vertigo), 
> nightmares (Spellbound), acid trips (Easy Rider) or any other kind of 
> hallucination (Altered States). Ecstatic or horrific doesn’t matter. Thanks.
> 
> ___
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j/PrM

*

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visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [swift-evolution] Smart KeyPaths

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I would suggest a keypath using ~ which is concise and clearer to identify.

let myPath = Person~friends[0].name





On Sunday, March 19, 2017, Jonathan Hull via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> This looks fantastic!
>
> The one worry I would have, as others have brought up, is confusion when
> there are static properties with the same name.  Maybe we could have a
> special static property called ‘keyPath’ or ‘path’ that would be reserved,
> and anything that followed would be a key path.
>
> So instead of:
>
> let myPath = Person.friends[0].name
>
> you would have:
>
> let myPath = Person.keyPath.friends[0].name
>
>
> Or if we want to choose a sentinel, I would nominate ‘$’:
>
> let myPath = $Person.friends[0].name
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
>
>
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Michael LeHew via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> > wrote:
>
> Hi friendly swift-evolution folks,
>
> The Foundation and Swift team  would like for you to consider the
> following proposal:
>
> Many thanks,
> -Michael
>
> Smart KeyPaths: Better Key-Value Coding for Swift
>
>- Proposal: SE-
>- Authors: David Smith , Michael LeHew
>, Joe Groff 
>- Review Manager: TBD
>- Status: *Awaiting Review*
>- Associated PRs:
>   - #644 
>
> Introduction
>
> We propose a family of concrete *Key Path* types that represent uninvoked
> references to properties that can be composed to form paths through many
> values and directly get/set their underlying values.
> MotivationWe Can Do Better than String
>
> On Darwin platforms Swift's existing #keyPath() syntax provides a
> convenient way to safely *refer* to properties. Unfortunately, once
> validated, the expression becomes a String which has a number of
> important limitations:
>
>- Loss of type information (requiring awkward Any APIs)
>- Unnecessarily slow to parse
>- Only applicable to NSObjects
>- Limited to Darwin platforms
>
> Use/Mention Distinctions
>
> While methods can be referred to without invoking them (let x = foo.bar 
> instead
> of  let x = foo.bar()), this is not currently possible for properties and
> subscripts.
>
> Making indirect references to a properties' concrete types also lets us
> expose metadata about the property, and in the future additional behaviors.
> More Expressive KeyPaths
>
> We would also like to support being able to use *Key Paths* to access
> into collections, which is not currently possible.
> Proposed solution
>
> We propose introducing a new expression akin to Type.method, but for
> properties and subscripts. These property reference expressions produce
> KeyPath objects, rather than Strings. KeyPaths are a family of generic
> classes *(structs and protocols here would be ideal, but requires
> generalized existentials)* which encapsulate a property reference or
> chain of property references, including the type, mutability, property
> name(s), and ability to set/get values.
>
> Here's a sample of it in use:
> Swift
>
> struct Person {
> var name: String
> var friends: [Person]
> var bestFriend: Person?}
> var han = Person(name: "Han Solo", friends: [])var luke = Person(name: "Luke 
> Skywalker", friends: [han])
> let firstFriendsNameKeyPath = Person.friends[0].name
> let firstFriend = luke[path] // han
> // or equivalently, with type inferred from contextlet firstFriendName = 
> luke[.friends[0].name]
> // rename Luke's first friend
> luke[firstFriendsNameKeyPath] = "A Disreputable Smuggler"
> let bestFriendsName = luke[.bestFriend]?.name  // nil, if he is the last jedi
>
> Detailed designCore KeyPath Types
>
> KeyPaths are a hierarchy of progressively more specific classes, based on
> whether we have prior knowledge of the path through the object graph we
> wish to traverse.
> Unknown Path / Unknown Root Type
>
> AnyKeyPath is fully type-erased, referring to 'any route' through an
> object/value graph for 'any root'. Because of type-erasure many operations
> can fail at runtime and are thus nillable.
> Swift
>
> class AnyKeyPath: CustomDebugStringConvertible, Hashable {
> // MARK - Composition
> // Returns nil if path.rootType != self.valueType
> func appending(path: AnyKeyPath) -> AnyKeyPath?
>
> // MARK - Runtime Information
> class var rootType: Any.Type
> class var valueType: Any.Type
>
> static func == (lhs: AnyKeyPath, rhs: AnyKeyPath) -> Bool
> var hashValue: Int}
>
> Unknown Path / Known Root Type
>
> If we know a little more type information (what kind of thing the key path
> is relative to), then we can use PartialKeyPath , which refers to
> an 'any route' from a known root:
> Swift
>
> class PartialKeyPath: AnyKeyPath {
> // MARK - Composition
> // Returns nil if Value != self.valueType
> func appending(path: 

Re: [Frameworks] Eulogy Films

[John Muse]

Lynne Sachs’ The Last Happy Day: 
http://www.lynnesachs.com/2009/06/15/the-last-happy-day/
Alan Berliner’s First Cousin Once Removed: 
http://alanberliner.com/first_cousin.php?pag_id=3

> On Mar 18, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Alex Lake <alake.alex.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Eric Stewart's Wake is essential in this category.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/108488448
> On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 12:36 PM robert harris <lagonab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Margaret,
> 
> You might consider Alexander Sokurov’s  “Elegy” series,  for example:
>   Maria (Peasant Elegy)
>   Elegy
> 
> Shigeko Kubota’s   “My Father”
> 
> my own (Robert Harris)
> “Elegy”
> ELEGY2009   Colorsilent   2:45
> 
> Elegy for four friends, Shridhar Bapat, Charlotte Moorman, Nam June Paik, 
> & Al Robbins.  Super 8mm film recorded in 1975
> distributed by Filmmaker’s Coop
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 11:43 AM, Margaret Rorison <margaret.b.rori...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Film Friends, 
>> 
>> I am curious about film eulogies and would love to know more films that have 
>> been made to honor someone. For example, Nathaniel Dorsky's August and After
>> 
>> ​I am looking for short films in particular. 
>> 
>> Poetic gestures of goodbye, final notes, odes...
>> 
>> thank you, 
>> Margaret Rorison 
>> ​
>> 
>> ---
>> http://margaretrorison.com/
>> http://sightunseenbaltimore.com/
>> 
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
he/him/his
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I don't see any discussions to have Swift Server Side shift to Discourse
forum too?

On Thursday, February 9, 2017, James Hillhouse via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I'll echo Nick and Joshua–thanks Swift Core team for taking the time to
> decide on this change.
>
> Jim
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Rick Mann via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org > wrote:
> >
> > I second this praise. FWIW, I recently installed Discourse using a
> DigitalOcean droplet, and it couldn't have been easier. Upgrades are
> surprisingly easy, too.
> >
> > I have yet to figure out the email integration; I hope you can get that
> working.
> >
> > I also hope you give some effort to improving on the default Discourse
> look. It's not bad, but I feel like it doesn't do a good job of delineating
> functional areas on the page. Having said that, I'm more than happy to wait
> indefinitely for such an improvement; it's not worth holding up the
> roll-out.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> >
> >> On Feb 8, 2017, at 19:34 , Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org > wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> This is an awesome decision and a huge enhancement for the Swift
> community. Thanks (Core Team) for taking the time to entertain the
> discussion and move forward with what many community members have wanted.
> >>
> >> Alvarado, Joshua
> >>
> >>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 5:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use
> modern forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing
> lists we have now.  After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to
> move swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.
> >>>
> >>> There are tradeoffs to moving to a forum.  The main advantages are:
> >>>
> >>> - Easy for people to participate without subscribing to the entire
> mailing list, as well as no need to provide email address to participate.
> A lot of people have voiced concern that they feel resistance to
> participate because of needing to subscribe to a mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> - Consistent affordances and rendering of content, including Markdown
> support.  This is really useful for having technical discussions.
> >>>
> >>> - Better searching of topics, archiving, etc.
> >>>
> >>> - More tools for moderation.
> >>>
> >>> - Topic cross-referencing, and consistent organization of topics
> instead of whatever threading support a mail client provides (which is
> inconsistent).
> >>>
> >>> I also want to consider moving the -dev lists to the same forum setup
> as well; but that will be a separate conversation on those lists.
> >>>
> >>> A rollout plan has not been figured out.  People are busy and there
> are logistics to figure out.  I will be engaging a handful of members from
> the community to help with the transition.  Specifically, there are those
> who really value using email for participation on swift-evolution and
> swift-users, and the goal is to get the forum setup to allow those people
> to continue to feel effective when using email for discussions on these
> "lists".
> >>>
> >>> More details will be announced as they get figured out, but I felt it
> was important to let the community know about this direction.
> >>>
> >>> Ted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> swift-evolution mailing list
> >>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> >>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >> ___
> >> swift-evolution mailing list
> >> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> >> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rick Mann
> > rm...@latencyzero.com 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org 
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

One feature is I need the ability to bookmark where I stop reading
during the journey or trip.

A few contributors keep replying with quoted message ate up my mobile data
usage significantly especially this thread is getting a long discussion is
hard to read on a small screen and I don't use email clients on iPhone.

Forum is useful when we need share photos and video.


On Friday, February 3, 2017, Muse M <james.le...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One feature is I need the ability to bookmark where I stop reading
> during the journey or trip.
>
> A few contributors keep replying with quoted message ate up my mobile data
> usage significantly especially this thread is getting a long discussion is
> hard to read on a small screen and I don't use email clients on iPhone.
>
> Forum is useful when we need share photos and video.
>
> On Friday, February 3, 2017, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','swift-evolution@swift.org');>> wrote:
>
>>
>> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread.
>>
>> Would a forum have a privilege system that stops newbies from starting
>> threads? I've seen no one proposing that.
>>
>>
>> Whether you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if
>> you have a new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same
>> way. No one's user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding
>> you of their status.
>>
>>
>> Imho that's just wrong, and this message somewhat proves my point:
>> There are several users with a "@apple.com" trophy, and I guess most
>> people who spend a significant amount of time on swift-evolution also have
>> developed a preference not only for topics, but also for authors (saving
>> matching posts from being ignored).
>>
>> The ability to "like" posts would be a remarkable help for newbies to
>> gather attention for their ideas — not because of the status of the author,
>> but because of the quality of their contribution.
>>
>
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[Fedora-legal-list] Re: PointOne Public License

[David Muse]

On 1/12/2017 9:10 AM, Tom Callaway wrote:

On 01/09/2017 09:45 PM, David Muse wrote:

PointOne Public License


Okay, this one is weird. The first part is an MIT variant, the second is
a ZPL 1.0 variant. The wording "FOR ORIGINAL CREATIONS" and "FOR
MODIFIED DISTRIBUTIONS" is not clear. I'm not sure which license would
apply in what situations when the PointOne Public License is in use.

The MIT variant is functionally equivalent to the OSI "normal" MIT, just
more verbose in that it describes a split between source and binary
handling, whereas stock MIT just says "the Software"

The ZPL 1.0 variant (aside from the "why ZPL 1.0 vs the 2.0/2.1 fixed
version) is archaic. Digital Creations doesn't exist anymore, the URLS
in it are invalid. It's GPL incompatible, but its Free.

I don't think PointOne Telecommunications is around anymore to help shed
light on this license, so I'm choosing to interpret it as "ZPL 1.0 or
MIT". Use that tag in your package (in addition to any other licenses in
play).

~tom

==
Red Hat



Excellent.  Thanks Tom.

David
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: [swift-evolution] Update on the Swift Project Lead

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Tesla cars is now type-safe.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Have fun working at Tesla Mr Chris Lattner!
>
> I look forward to seeing tesla car apps that can be written in swift.
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:22 PM Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On 11 Jan 2017, at 18:18, John Pratt via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > You are just going to drop this entire project, that has its name
>> associated with you,
>> > for a very fierce competitor?
>> >
>>
>> That’s pretty insulting to everybody else who works on the project
>> (including the many contributors here).
>>
>> Besides, it’s just plain wrong. Swift is a tool, and like any other tool
>> it is judged on its intrinsic merit for a job, regardless of whichever
>> names may be attached to it.
>>
>> > However capable Ted Kremenek is, and I am sure that is, you have
>> collectively decided
>> > to break this programming language every year or so.
>> >
>> > Who is going to get behind this programming language now that it is
>> associated with
>> > a turncoat?
>>
>> We have contributors from IBM, Microsoft, Uber and/or Lyft, maybe also
>> from Facebook (not sure), Apple (obviously), and probably more. I don’t
>> think they all decided to invest time in making Swift better because Chris
>> Lattner told them he would always work at Apple. So chill.
>>
>> > ___
>> > swift-evolution mailing list
>> > swift-evolution@swift.org
>> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: noarch package built differently...

[David Muse]

On 12/25/2016 6:41 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:06:03 -0500, David Muse wrote:


Oh, I just realized that there's an rpmdiff tool.


Mentioned in your original mail. ;-)


Well, I tried that,
and the only difference it shows is the timestamp for each file, which I
would expect to be different.  An rpmdiff -iT of the two noarch rpms
returns nothing.


That's "Architecture independent files":
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/MultilibTricks#Timestamps


I eventually figured it out.  The doc package had a Requires for the 
main package, which is arch-specific.


At one point, I had commented out the Requires to see if that would fix 
the problem, but I must have forgotten to regenerate the SRPM before 
doing the next all-platforms build, and then not forgotten to regenerate 
it before doing the platform-specific builds that I rpmdiff'ed.  Or 
something...  Whatever I did wrong, the dependency on an arch-specific 
package turned out to be the main problem.


I guess noarch packages shouldn't have any arch-specific dependencies. 
Is that correct?


Dave
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: noarch package built differently...

[David Muse]

On 12/24/2016 3:06 PM, David Muse wrote:



On 12/24/2016 11:12 AM, David Muse wrote:

On 12/24/2016 3:49 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 03:32:41 -0500, David Muse wrote:


Hello,

I recently started getting errors like:

17046740 build (f26, rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm): open
(arm04-builder06.arm.fedoraproject.org) -> FAILED: BuildError: The
following noarch package built differently on different architectures:
rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
rpmdiff output was:
error: cannot open Packages index using db5 - Permission denied (13)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm

...when doing koji builds.  Eg:

koji build --scratch f26 rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm

It's odd because the rpm in question is just docs.  Nothing is built
per-se, some static files are just installed.  I'd expect it to be the
same on all platforms.

It seems that it always fails when building for arm.  I don't have an
arm platform available to test on though.  Is there any way to get more
information about what's different about the rpm on the different
platforms?


You can submit a separate scratch build for each target arch, then
download the built rpms and compare them all.

rudiments does something to generate its HTML documentation. It doesn't
use Doxygen, but whatever it does to the files may lead to different
results
depending on what arch the build machine is.


I tried building for i686 and x86_64 and the noarch RPM did in fact turn
out different for each platform:

$ md5sum */*
ed58927ce25fa51e3f5e16d81cc195fa
i686/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
0789684c36ddcaadc4ee5216cfe7037e
x86_64/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm

I tried installing them into separate roots using rpm --root and then
removing the var directories that rpm creates for its database.  After
that, a diff -urN of the roots showed no differences.  So, the files
that are installed by both RPMs appear to be identical.

However, a vbindiff of the two rpms shows plenty of differences.  At
first there are really sparse, like maybe individual numbers are
different, but then there are some notable differences include the name
of the build machine, and what appear to be build options like: -O2 -g
-pipe ... -m64 -mtune=generic.cpio.xz.2.x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, and
then the compressed data is all very different.

I would expect the name of the build machine and build options to be
very different between systems of different architectures.  And I'd
think that the different strings would throw off the compressed data
further on in the file.

Am I doing something wrong that causes this info to be included in the
noarch RPM?

I tried fiddling with some parameters in my spec file.  Eg. I don't have
any patches to apply, so I removed the -p1 from the %autosetup, and I
removed the Requires from the doc package, but those changes didn't make
any difference.

Is that info supposed to be included, and maybe there's just a bug in
the code that compares noarch rpms?  Or something else?  Can I safely
ignore the error?


Oh, I just realized that there's an rpmdiff tool.  Well, I tried that,
and the only difference it shows is the timestamp for each file, which I
would expect to be different.  An rpmdiff -iT of the two noarch rpms
returns nothing.

Strange.


Ha!  Today the build succeeds with no errors.  I guess something was 
wrong with koji.

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Re: noarch package built differently...

[David Muse]

On 12/24/2016 11:12 AM, David Muse wrote:

On 12/24/2016 3:49 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 03:32:41 -0500, David Muse wrote:


Hello,

I recently started getting errors like:

17046740 build (f26, rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm): open
(arm04-builder06.arm.fedoraproject.org) -> FAILED: BuildError: The
following noarch package built differently on different architectures:
rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
rpmdiff output was:
error: cannot open Packages index using db5 - Permission denied (13)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm

...when doing koji builds.  Eg:

koji build --scratch f26 rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm

It's odd because the rpm in question is just docs.  Nothing is built
per-se, some static files are just installed.  I'd expect it to be the
same on all platforms.

It seems that it always fails when building for arm.  I don't have an
arm platform available to test on though.  Is there any way to get more
information about what's different about the rpm on the different
platforms?


You can submit a separate scratch build for each target arch, then
download the built rpms and compare them all.

rudiments does something to generate its HTML documentation. It doesn't
use Doxygen, but whatever it does to the files may lead to different
results
depending on what arch the build machine is.


I tried building for i686 and x86_64 and the noarch RPM did in fact turn
out different for each platform:

$ md5sum */*
ed58927ce25fa51e3f5e16d81cc195fa
i686/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
0789684c36ddcaadc4ee5216cfe7037e
x86_64/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm

I tried installing them into separate roots using rpm --root and then
removing the var directories that rpm creates for its database.  After
that, a diff -urN of the roots showed no differences.  So, the files
that are installed by both RPMs appear to be identical.

However, a vbindiff of the two rpms shows plenty of differences.  At
first there are really sparse, like maybe individual numbers are
different, but then there are some notable differences include the name
of the build machine, and what appear to be build options like: -O2 -g
-pipe ... -m64 -mtune=generic.cpio.xz.2.x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, and
then the compressed data is all very different.

I would expect the name of the build machine and build options to be
very different between systems of different architectures.  And I'd
think that the different strings would throw off the compressed data
further on in the file.

Am I doing something wrong that causes this info to be included in the
noarch RPM?

I tried fiddling with some parameters in my spec file.  Eg. I don't have
any patches to apply, so I removed the -p1 from the %autosetup, and I
removed the Requires from the doc package, but those changes didn't make
any difference.

Is that info supposed to be included, and maybe there's just a bug in
the code that compares noarch rpms?  Or something else?  Can I safely
ignore the error?


Oh, I just realized that there's an rpmdiff tool.  Well, I tried that, 
and the only difference it shows is the timestamp for each file, which I 
would expect to be different.  An rpmdiff -iT of the two noarch rpms 
returns nothing.


Strange.
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Re: noarch package built differently...

[David Muse]

On 12/24/2016 3:49 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 03:32:41 -0500, David Muse wrote:


Hello,

I recently started getting errors like:

17046740 build (f26, rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm): open
(arm04-builder06.arm.fedoraproject.org) -> FAILED: BuildError: The
following noarch package built differently on different architectures:
rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
rpmdiff output was:
error: cannot open Packages index using db5 - Permission denied (13)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm

...when doing koji builds.  Eg:

koji build --scratch f26 rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm

It's odd because the rpm in question is just docs.  Nothing is built
per-se, some static files are just installed.  I'd expect it to be the
same on all platforms.

It seems that it always fails when building for arm.  I don't have an
arm platform available to test on though.  Is there any way to get more
information about what's different about the rpm on the different platforms?


You can submit a separate scratch build for each target arch, then
download the built rpms and compare them all.

rudiments does something to generate its HTML documentation. It doesn't
use Doxygen, but whatever it does to the files may lead to different results
depending on what arch the build machine is.


I tried building for i686 and x86_64 and the noarch RPM did in fact turn 
out different for each platform:


$ md5sum */*
ed58927ce25fa51e3f5e16d81cc195fa
i686/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm
0789684c36ddcaadc4ee5216cfe7037e
x86_64/rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm

I tried installing them into separate roots using rpm --root and then 
removing the var directories that rpm creates for its database.  After 
that, a diff -urN of the roots showed no differences.  So, the files 
that are installed by both RPMs appear to be identical.


However, a vbindiff of the two rpms shows plenty of differences.  At 
first there are really sparse, like maybe individual numbers are 
different, but then there are some notable differences include the name 
of the build machine, and what appear to be build options like: -O2 -g 
-pipe ... -m64 -mtune=generic.cpio.xz.2.x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, and 
then the compressed data is all very different.


I would expect the name of the build machine and build options to be 
very different between systems of different architectures.  And I'd 
think that the different strings would throw off the compressed data 
further on in the file.


Am I doing something wrong that causes this info to be included in the 
noarch RPM?


I tried fiddling with some parameters in my spec file.  Eg. I don't have 
any patches to apply, so I removed the -p1 from the %autosetup, and I 
removed the Requires from the doc package, but those changes didn't make 
any difference.


Is that info supposed to be included, and maybe there's just a bug in 
the code that compares noarch rpms?  Or something else?  Can I safely 
ignore the error?

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noarch package built differently...

[David Muse]

Hello,

I recently started getting errors like:

17046740 build (f26, rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm): open 
(arm04-builder06.arm.fedoraproject.org) -> FAILED: BuildError: The 
following noarch package built differently on different architectures: 
rudiments-doc-1.0.1-1.fc26.noarch.rpm

rpmdiff output was:
error: cannot open Packages index using db5 - Permission denied (13)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm

...when doing koji builds.  Eg:

koji build --scratch f26 rudiments-1.0.1-1.fc24.src.rpm

It's odd because the rpm in question is just docs.  Nothing is built 
per-se, some static files are just installed.  I'd expect it to be the 
same on all platforms.


It seems that it always fails when building for arm.  I don't have an 
arm platform available to test on though.  Is there any way to get more 
information about what's different about the rpm on the different platforms?


Thanks!

David Muse
david.m...@firstworks.com
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Re: [swift-evolution] guard let x = x

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

In Rust lang, it uses .unwrap and b can be a non-nil variable.

guard a.unwrap, b, c.unwrap else {
}

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016, Nicholas Maccharoli via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I like the idea of drying up something like `guard let x = x, let y = y,
> let z = z else { return }`
> Using `guard unwrap` would surely be an improvement but still maybe
> something like `guard unwrap x, unwrap y, unwrap x else { return }`
> although very clear in intent is a bit bulky.
>
> What about something like introducing a `given` / `given-where` clause for
> `if` and `guard` ensuring an optional  is non-nil and shadowing the
> variable with an unwrapped variable of the same name.
>
> one way might be:
>
> guard given a, b, c else { return }
>
> or with an attached conditional:
>
> guard given a, b, c where a > b else { return }
>
> for dealing with long if-lets you could do something like:
>
> if given a, b, c where a > b { ... }
>
> Instead of if let a = a, b = b, c = c, a > b { ... }
>
> The `where` clause does not need to be an actual keyword, it can just be a
> trailing boolean expression but
> maybe having it makes things like unwrapping and testing that a variable
> evaluates to `true` more distinguishable.
>
> something like `if given a, b, c, c { ... }` looks like it could be an
> accidental typed repeat of `a` as much as it could mean `if given a, b, c,
> c == true { ... }`
>
> `if given a, b, c where c { ... }` might read a little easier.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> - Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> > wrote:
>
>> Agreed, a change like this would make sense :).
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On 1 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Joe Groff via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Oct 31, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Xiaodi Wu > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Joe Groff via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> > wrote:
>> >> Sorry for piling onto the bikeshed. We do already have a notation for
>> testing that an Optional isn't nil, `x != nil`. We could theoretically
>> bless ` != nil` as a statement condition to also unwrap the
>> referenced declaration in the scope guarded by the condition. (`
>> is T` could similarly rebind a declaration as the cast type.)
>> >>
>> >> I think we'd have some weirdness. For instance:
>> >>
>> >> ```
>> >> guard x != nil || x == y else { break }
>> >> // oops, now x isn't unwrapped anymore because I added a condition
>> >> ```
>> >>
>> >> Also, it'd be unexpected for it to be blessed for guard but not if:
>> >>
>> >> ```
>> >> if x != nil {
>> >>  // is x unwrapped here?
>> >>  // if so, this would be source-breaking...
>> >>  // if not, it would be surprisingly inconsistent
>> >> }
>> >> ```
>> >
>> > `if` and `guard` share the same condition behavior. It's true that
>> there would be limitations on when the unwrapping behavior applies, but QoI
>> could potentially help. Users seem to be able to work within similar
>> constraints in gradually-typed languages like Typescript that work
>> similarly, and there's quite a lot of Swift users who are surprised at
>> first that Swift doesn't behave similarly.
>> >
>> > -Joe
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>> > swift-evolution@swift.org
>> 
>> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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>> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] private & fileprivate

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I would rather consider using a new keyword that could make it clearer
without looking up for description.

NewCurrent
moduleprivate over internal



On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Rien via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> +1 for me.
>
> I see a little benefit for teams that have multiple people working on a
> single file (not necessarily at the same time) where a case can be made for
> a distinction between fileprivate and private. Other than that there is imo
> no benefit. So to me the question is “is the benefit to those teams worth
> the burden on the rest of us”?
>
> I honestly do not know the answer to that.
>
> Personally I come down on the side of reverting this change.
>
> Btw: I was not present during the original discussion. If I had been I
> would have tried to make a case for a “friends list”. In which each scope
> could have a list of “friends” that have “private” access. This has the
> advantage that all external access to the scope would be documentation in
> that scope, and it would open up the possibility of granting private access
> to closures outside the file the scope was defined in. (private would then
> become class-private and fileprivate could be eliminated)
>
> Rien.
>
> > On 07 Oct 2016, at 23:44, Tony Allevato via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >
> > I actually feel exactly the opposite of this—personally I thought
> `private` was fine the way it was when it meant `fileprivate` and I had no
> real need for `private` as it exists in Swift 3.
> >
> > `fileprivate` is useful because it lets me organize my code in such a
> way that I divide large types (for example, those that conform to many
> delegates/other protocols) into multiple extensions in the same file. Any
> state or helpers that I want to keep in the main class can be defined as
> `fileprivate` and still be accessible throughout that file, without leaking
> them into the rest of my module if they were defined as `internal`.
> >
> > On the other hand, `private` would mostly just protect me from myself at
> a very small level. In all the Swift code that I've written (this is my
> anecdotal experience, of course, and I know others differ), it's rare that
> I've found a strong reason to or benefit from locking something down as
> `private` instead of `fileprivate`.
> >
> > Of course, one could argue that `fileprivate` is also protecting me from
> myself, just a file-based level instead of a scope-based level, but I think
> it would be more harmful to encourage leaking abstractions out of a file
> and into a module than it would to leak them out of a scope and into a
> single file. The affected surface area is much smaller in the latter case.
> >
> > One possible compromise that pops into my head would be to let `private`
> not apply to a scope but to a type and also to only those extensions on
> that type that are visible in the same file—that may have already been
> discussed during the review of the original proposal. I don't know what the
> complexity of it would be.
> >
> > Either way, I would be strongly against anything that removes
> `fileprivate`. I don't find much use for `private` and nobody is forcing me
> to use it, so I don't. On the other hand, removing `fileprivate` would
> prevent a design and code organization pattern that I enjoy about Swift.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:06 PM Zach Waldowski via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> > I third this sentiment. fileprivate is a nice idea and very clearly has
> its uses (which is why the proposal got traction in the first place), but
> when combined with the other access levels, the language feature as a whole
> feels arbitrary. In practical use, files that I felt were nicely
> encapsulated and hiding implementation details are now a scattered mix of
> access levels, adding cognitive load and making the code look unorganized
> for having the gall to use extensions to split up functionality.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >   Zachary Waldowski
> >   z...@waldowski.me
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016, at 01:55 PM, Russ Bishop via swift-evolution wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Oct 7, 2016, at 9:13 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I started the topic, but I also believe like you that the fileprivate
> vs private(file) discussion has already been thoroughly discussed and
> nothing new has been brought up. That’s not what I want to discuss.
> >>>
> >>> I instead want to share my experience using private and fileprivate
> since release. Here are my thoughts:
> >>>
> >>> • We should start with the premise that the proposal has added a
> substantial amount of complexity:
> >>> • It has added an extra modifier and access level to learn.
> >>> • It has complicated the access level rules with Inner
> types as mentioned in the Complications with private types section of the
> proposal.
> >>> • I have 

Re: RxJava Observable with CXF

[Muse Mekuria]

Hi Sergey,

I've been trying to setup very simple spring boot setup with the jax-rs
starter in order to try the RxJava updates and I'm having trouble getting
it to work. Not sure what I'm missing but everything I tried gives me a
404. I've looked at JAX-RS Spring Boot Scan
<https://github.com/apache/cxf/tree/master/distribution/src/main/release/samples/jax_rs/spring_boot_scan/application>
and
tried both manual and auto configurations but no luck so far
<https://github.com/mekuriam/cxfdemo>.


Any thoughts?

Thanks!


On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sergey Beryozkin <sberyoz...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've looked a bit more today into it, see
> http://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/commit/1224d5cc
>
> It does offer a much better integration with JAX-RS 2.0 AsyncResponse, see
> a test there which streams the subscription items as get available which is
> quite useful. AsyncResponse itself can do multiple suspends till the first
> items start appearing.
>
> I think more can be done there (may be later), but I suppose it will need
> to go into a dedicated module for 3.2.0 as the relevant code is going to
> grow for sure.
>
> Cheers, Sergey
> On 31/08/16 14:34, Muse Mekuria wrote:
>
>> Great! I'll be looking forward to this.
>>
>> Muse
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Sergey Beryozkin <sberyoz...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:sberyoz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This should address this issue:
>>
>> http://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/commit/502db47a
>> <http://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/commit/502db47a>
>>
>> More work will be done on the client side too later on, with
>> CompletableFuture to be supported OOB.
>>
>> Sergey
>>
>> On 30/08/16 09:47, Sergey Beryozkin wrote:
>>
>> Hi Muse
>>
>> Thanks for starting experimenting with it.
>> It is fair to say that this feature requires more work - it is
>> being
>> planned.
>> I'll add a missing @Provider annotation and that alone will let
>> this
>> provider be auto discovered too with CXF 3.1.8 (with a
>> cxf.jaxrs.classes-scan -
>> http://cxf.apache.org/docs/springboot.html#SpringBoot-Additi
>> onalConfiguration.1
>> <http://cxf.apache.org/docs/springboot.html#SpringBoot-Addit
>> ionalConfiguration.1>).
>>
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried yet Observable.just where a list is implicit -
>> will take
>> a look at it
>>
>> Cheers, Sergey
>>
>>
>> On 29/08/16 16:09, Muse Mekuria wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sergey,
>>
>> I am working with Spring Boot & CXF and trying to implement
>> our APIs
>> with RxJava Observables. I used the ObservableWriter I found
>> here
>> <https://github.com/apache/cxf/commit/447f2dac6e160b5cd49555
>> 8ca8855ed481396c63
>> <https://github.com/apache/cxf/commit/447f2dac6e160b5cd49555
>> 8ca8855ed481396c63>>
>> and
>> added some Spring annotations so it gets picked up like so...
>>
>> @Provider@Component@Produces(MediaType.APPLICATION_JSON)
>> public class ObservableWriter implements
>> MessageBodyWriter<Observable>  {...
>>
>> My api returns an empty list when I try to return the type
>> Observable
>> (where I am expecting a list of T) but if I wrap the whole
>> list into
>> Observable<List> I get my response.
>>
>> So my question is
>>
>>   * Is there any documentation on how to use these
>> extensions properly
>> or is it still not ready for use
>>   * I was hoping to find something like this
>> <https://github.com/jmnarloch/rxjava-spring-boot-starter
>> <https://github.com/jmnarloch/rxjava-spring-boot-starter>>
>> where the
>> produced results are wrapped into a list, am I missing
>> something or
>> is this not available yet?
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Muse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sergey Beryozkin
>>
>> Talend Community Coders
>> http://coders.talend.com/
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: RxJava Observable with CXF

[Muse Mekuria]

Great! I'll be looking forward to this.

Muse

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Sergey Beryozkin <sberyoz...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> This should address this issue:
>
> http://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/commit/502db47a
>
> More work will be done on the client side too later on, with
> CompletableFuture to be supported OOB.
>
> Sergey
>
> On 30/08/16 09:47, Sergey Beryozkin wrote:
>
>> Hi Muse
>>
>> Thanks for starting experimenting with it.
>> It is fair to say that this feature requires more work - it is being
>> planned.
>> I'll add a missing @Provider annotation and that alone will let this
>> provider be auto discovered too with CXF 3.1.8 (with a
>> cxf.jaxrs.classes-scan -
>> http://cxf.apache.org/docs/springboot.html#SpringBoot-Additi
>> onalConfiguration.1).
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried yet Observable.just where a list is implicit - will take
>> a look at it
>>
>> Cheers, Sergey
>>
>>
>> On 29/08/16 16:09, Muse Mekuria wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Sergey,
>>>
>>> I am working with Spring Boot & CXF and trying to implement our APIs
>>> with RxJava Observables. I used the ObservableWriter I found here
>>> <https://github.com/apache/cxf/commit/447f2dac6e160b5cd49555
>>> 8ca8855ed481396c63>
>>> and
>>> added some Spring annotations so it gets picked up like so...
>>>
>>> @Provider@Component@Produces(MediaType.APPLICATION_JSON)
>>> public class ObservableWriter implements
>>> MessageBodyWriter<Observable>  {...
>>>
>>> My api returns an empty list when I try to return the type Observable
>>> (where I am expecting a list of T) but if I wrap the whole list into
>>> Observable<List> I get my response.
>>>
>>> So my question is
>>>
>>>   * Is there any documentation on how to use these extensions properly
>>> or is it still not ready for use
>>>   * I was hoping to find something like this
>>> <https://github.com/jmnarloch/rxjava-spring-boot-starter> where the
>>> produced results are wrapped into a list, am I missing something or
>>> is this not available yet?
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>> Muse
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sergey Beryozkin
>
> Talend Community Coders
> http://coders.talend.com/
>

Re: [swift-evolution] More fine tuning optimization to swift compiler

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

-Oloop
Correction: it should be similar to GCC -funroll-loops
On other option if we have 1,000,000's loops or array, it's bad for one
core to handle 100% of the calculations and other cores are idle, the idea
could be optimize loops to share/split workload across all available CPU
cores.

-Ofunction
Is a dummy example for other example.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Félix Cloutier <felix...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> My understanding is that -Ounchecked removes integer overflow checks and
> array bound checks.
>
> What type of optimizations would -Oloop and -Ofunction do?
>
> Félix
>
> Le 7 août 2016 à 19:27:56, Muse M via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> a écrit :
>
> I'm not sure if this is the right channel to discuss on optimization switch
>
> We are aware the 3 options:
> -O
> -Ofast
> -Ounchecked
>
> As we can see, we rarely use -Ounchecked for safety reason and there
> aren't much info on what are the tradeoff. if there are performance reason
> that will need to improve loop or maths optimization or allow developers to
> fine-tuning in various area, we could add more options to compiler.
>
> -OLoop (Optimize loop with safety)
> -OFunc (Optimize function calls)
> and so on.
>
>
>
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[swift-evolution] More fine tuning optimization to swift compiler

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I'm not sure if this is the right channel to discuss on optimization switch

We are aware the 3 options:
-O
-Ofast
-Ounchecked

As we can see, we rarely use -Ounchecked for safety reason and there aren't
much info on what are the tradeoff. if there are performance reason that
will need to improve loop or maths optimization or allow developers to
fine-tuning in various area, we could add more options to compiler.

-OLoop (Optimize loop with safety)
-OFunc (Optimize function calls)
and so on.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Apple's developer forums need to rewrite in Swift.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:42 AM, Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I concur on the general weakness of Apple's developer forums as they
> currently exist.
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 11:23 AM Jon Shier via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> Just wanted to point out that Apple’s forum software is pretty terrible,
>> even after two (apparent) rewrites. It’s buggy, navigates differently from
>> other forum software, doesn’t render code inline very well, and it doesn’t
>> offer the integrations that Discourse does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 4:11 PM, David Owens II via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> But does it already surpass the limits?
>>
>> • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to
>> our Standard hosting plan.
>> • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless your
>> project is enormous – you have two options:
>> • We’ll help you move to self-hosting, either on your own server or any
>> Docker compatible cloud (a $20/month Digital Ocean droplet should suffice).
>> • Upgrade to our Business hosting plan at 50% off.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close if not passed 100k monthly views
>> already.
>>
>> The big unknown is also around the mailing list support. Is it super
>> robust and work as well for communicating as the mailing currently does? I
>> don’t know. I’ve not been involved with large projects on discourse.
>>
>>
>> Apple has a lot of money; I doubt being unable to go with the free option
>> would be a big dealbreaker.
>>
>> It should probably be mentioned, though, that Apple already has a
>> developer forum set up, and a server to run it on, and everything. Is there
>> any reason they couldn’t just use that?
>>
>> Charles
>>
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Re: [swift-evolution] Which functionality should be covered by a native Swift math/numerics library that ships with the standard lib?

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

If Swift team have no roadmap on those plans, any swift developers with
strong in each area could kickstart and contributing libraries in Github
repo. We will greatly benefit from those areas and AI.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via
> swift-evolution  wrote:
>
>> A few things immediately spring to mind:
>> • Fixed-size arrays
>> • An optimized Matrix type
>> • Swifty syntax for Fourier transforms
>> • A numerical integrator (or diff-eq solver!)
>> • BigInt capabilities
>>
>> The first of these (fixed-size arrays) will probably require compiler
>> support.
>>
>> The rest can already be done in a library, except I believe they will hit
>> the “generics cannot be specialized across module boundaries” slowdown, and
>> must be explicitly specialized for common numeric types to avoid it. (Has
>> this been fixed yet? Are there plans to?)
>>
>
> The underlying libraries provide optimized versions of matrix functions
> and Fourier transforms only for particular numeric types anyway. It'd be
> Swifty to have Matrix, but doing matrix multiplication with
> that simply isn't going to be performant.
>
>
>>
>> Nevin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Björn Forster 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Swift community,
>>> to make use of Swift more appealing and useful for science, engineering
>>> and finance and everything else involving actually calculating things, I
>>> think it would be a big step forward if Swift would ship with its own
>>> math/numerics library.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it be great if Swift would offer functionality similar to Numpy
>>> in its native math lib? It think it would be great to have a "standard"
>>> annotation for vector arithmetic that the Swift community has agreed on and
>>> that scientific packages can build on.
>>>
>>> Which functionality should be covered by a Swift's math lib and where
>>> should be drawn the line?
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> (If it is not the right time now to talk this topic, as it is not
>>> mentioned in the goals for Swift 4 by Chris, I apologize for bringing this
>>> up now. But I think then this should be discussed later at some point not
>>> in the infinite future)
>>>
>>> Björn
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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Re: [swift-evolution] Swift 3.1 discussions, go?

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I'm concern if simd could improve factorials code and faster timing.

import simd
func factorial(n: Int) -> Int {
return n < 1 ? 1 : n * factorial(n: n - 1)
}
print(factorial(n: 40))

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Charlie Monroe <char...@charliemonroe.net>
wrote:

> That's a good point. :)
>
> On Aug 2, 2016, at 5:55 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to guess, since Musa mentioned science and engineering, that a
> good chunk of that work is floating point :)
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Charlie Monroe via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> Are you using the variants of operators without overflow check? I.e.
>>
>> let num = a &+ b // [1]
>>
>> [1]
>> https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/Swift/Conceptual/Swift_Programming_Language/AdvancedOperators.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:01 AM, Muse M <james.le...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Have always wonder why Maths in Swift is slower than C and Go, it should
>> be address with priority if Swift is to be adopt for engineering, financial
>> and science industry.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:43 AM, Charlie Monroe via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>> See
>>> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160725/025711.html
>>>
>>> From what I understand, the discussion should stay focused on the main
>>> topics for Swift 4 that Chris highlighted in
>>> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160725/025676.html
>>>
>>> I had several ideas in mind, but am postponing them for Swift 5, seeing
>>> the schedule...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 1, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Anton Zhilin via swift-evolution <
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> It was stated that 27th of July was the last date for proposal
>>> acceptance, 29th of July was the last day for implementation, and 1th of
>>> August should be the starting day of Swift 3.1-related discussions.
>>> Am I right? Should we begin?
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [swift-evolution] Swift 3.1 discussions, go?

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Have always wonder why Maths in Swift is slower than C and Go, it should be
address with priority if Swift is to be adopt for engineering, financial
and science industry.

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:43 AM, Charlie Monroe via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> See
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160725/025711.html
>
> From what I understand, the discussion should stay focused on the main
> topics for Swift 4 that Chris highlighted in
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160725/025676.html
>
> I had several ideas in mind, but am postponing them for Swift 5, seeing
> the schedule...
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Anton Zhilin via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> It was stated that 27th of July was the last date for proposal acceptance,
> 29th of July was the last day for implementation, and 1th of August should
> be the starting day of Swift 3.1-related discussions.
> Am I right? Should we begin?
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

We will need a platform that live near the code (repo). Contextual
switching is expensive for every developers especially lengthy discussions
could have save us man-hours.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I have not enough experience with all the possible alternatives to give a
> vote for a specific system, but the mail-approach can be very tedious, and
> there are several things that a just not possible or very clumsy:
> - You can't edit a message that has been send
> - Tagging capabilities are very limited (no public tags…)
> - Searching & linking… (quite sure this has been mentioned extensively ;-)
> - Mail.app splits topics in strange ways, so it is very hard to follow
> discussions
>
> Sending a message is the only way of interaction, but imho it would be
> beneficial to have a lightweight alternative to just signal agreement (or
> something else) to posts.
> Receiving little or no feedback can be frustrating, and I expect there are
> many messages that didn't receive the attention they deserved, just because
> it is somewhat stupid to write an response that just says "absolutely
> right, I have nothing to add here" (feel free to prove me wrong ;-)
>
> Mailing lists have some benefits as well, but afaics, Discourse can
> basically run a list on top of all the discussions, so we wouldn't loose
> anything.
>
> Tino
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion,
pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within
ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?

https://www.zenhub.com

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I
> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>
> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
> - It’s easier to moderate.
> - It supports real-time updates.
> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
> - It has better search.
>
> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if
> we switch to Discourse.
>
> > Branching...
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<
> swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope bkn...@me.com)>wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
> proposal implementations.
> > > >
> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors
> but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for
> code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help
> get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think
> of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
> etc.
> > > >
> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot
> of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format,
> especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > > >
> > > >Forums for contributors would:
> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
> developers
> > > >- be easier to search
> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> > >
> > > Hi Brandon,
> > >
> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have
> some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and
> can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
> check out:
> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
> another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> >
> > For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> >
> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the
> prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
> works...)
> >
> >
> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
> disappearing:
> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> >
> >
> > I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(
> http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web interface(
> https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you Stack
> Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which
> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> > -Reply via email(
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if
> that's your thing
> > - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
> > - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
> hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
> email.
> >
> > And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source
> projects(
> http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
> Istrongly suspect(
> https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would
> qualify for this.
> >
> >
> > There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing
> lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> >
> > It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard
> on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One
> example:
> https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Frameworks] how to power a projector mounted on a rotating device

[John Muse]

ker
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Sent from mobile device, please forgive typographic errors. -RTW
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> FrameWorks mailing list
> >>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> >>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> FrameWorks mailing list
> >> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> >> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bryan Konefsky
> > Professional product tester
> >
> > Great art has always gone to the masses, to their hopes and dreams, for that
> > spark that kindled their souls. The rest, "the many, all too many" as
> > Nietzsche called mediocrity, have been mere commodities that can be bought
> > with money, cheap glory, or social position.
> > - Emma Goldman
> >
> > ___
> > FrameWorks mailing list
> > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> Marco Poloni
> http://www.theanalogueislandbureau.net
> Usedomer Strasse 8
> D – 13355 Berlin
> gsm de +49.163.6294080
> gsm ch +41.78.6322028
> skype marcopoloni
> 
> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

j/PrM

*

john muse
visual media scholar
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [swift-evolution] Seriously! Freeze Swift For Two Years After Release 3.0 !

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I would disagree to freeze API for 2 years when a large parts of proposal
by brilliants programmers and scientists (that where performance is) have
yet to implement features in 3.1, 3.5 to 4.0​ would be ideally to move
fast, break fast before it reach mature stage.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-corelibs-dev] [swift-users] WWDC Meetup

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I don't seem to see any outdoor activities for WWDC, make that a special
one for this year.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Chris Bailey via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Hi David:
>
> I didn't respond via the form, but will definitely be there if I can
> amongst other meetings/plans - I know a few other people that are in the
> same position. Keep us updated and thanks for organising!
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> From:David Hart via swift-corelibs-dev <
> swift-corelibs-...@swift.org>
> To:Jacob Bandes-Storch 
> Cc:Libs Swift Core , swift-users <
> swift-us...@swift.org>, Javier Soto , Shane S <
> electro_alch...@hotmail.com>, swift-evolution 
> Date:08/06/2016 07:10
> Subject:Re: [swift-corelibs-dev] [swift-evolution] [swift-users]
> WWDC Meetup
> Sent by:swift-corelibs-dev-boun...@swift.org
> --
>
>
>
> Thanks for everybody that took the time to fill the form! There were many
> more responses than I expected, so dinner becomes difficult to organise.
> But thanks to a hand from another community member, we should have a venue
> confirmed soon.
>
> We are currently shooting for *Tuesday evening*.
>
> More details coming ASAP.
>
> On 07 Jun 2016, at 08:46, David Hart <*da...@hartbit.com*
> > wrote:
>
> Of course, I wouldn’t want to exclude anybody by default! In that case,
> I’m proposing dinner somewhere.
>
> I’ve setup a Google Forms to help organise it:
>
> *http://goo.gl/forms/Oq6dK9fPNSCAVfL72*
> 
>
> On 07 Jun 2016, at 08:43, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-corelibs-dev <
> *swift-corelibs-...@swift.org* > wrote:
>
> +1 to both points :)
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:11 PM Javier Soto via swift-corelibs-dev <
> *swift-corelibs-...@swift.org* > wrote:
> I would love to join as well!!
>
> I'd like to propose perhaps to plan something alternative to beers to keep
> it inclusive to members who may not be 21 or like to drink alcohol :)
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 3:49 PM Shane S via swift-evolution <
> *swift-evolution@swift.org* > wrote:
> +1  I'd love to put some faces to some names  :)  sounds fun!
>
> Shane
>
> On Jun 6, 2016, at 4:56 AM, Rod Brown via swift-users <
> *swift-us...@swift.org* > wrote:
>
> I'd be interested in catching up. Was curious if there was going to be a
> meet up, either formal or informal. Sounds good.
>
> -Rod
>
> On 6 Jun 2016, at 5:36 PM, David Hart via swift-evolution <
> *swift-evolution@swift.org* > wrote:
>
> I imagine that during WWDC a non-negligible proportion of the Swift Open
> Source contributors will be in or around San-Francisco. I’d very much like
> to profit from that opportunity to meet-up, get to know each other, talk
> Swift over some beers! Is anybody interested? If yes, any ideas for
> location? I can setup a Doodle once I see enough interest.
>
> Looking forward to meet you!
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> 
> ___
>
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> *swift-us...@swift.org* 
> *https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users*
> 
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> *swift-evolution@swift.org* 
> *https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution*
> 
> --
> Javier Soto
> ___
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> *https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-corelibs-dev*
> 
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>
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Re: [swift-evolution] Discussion: Why is "nil" not "none"

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

None would be similar to Null or nothing about the types in that sense
which None is not a type.
Nil would be interpret as Int, Float, String, etc



On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Dany St-Amant via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> No clue as to the origins, but if you insist on using none. you can do:
>
> let a : Int? = .none
> let b : Int? = .some(5)
>
> Using the simpler
>
> let a : Int? = nil
> let b : Int? = 5
>
> is just sugar.
> Maybe it was foresight to prevent people from saying, if I can do:
>
> let a : Int? = none
>
> Why can't I do:
>
> let b : Int? = some(5)
>
> And then go a step further by asking for all enum to be access without the
> leading dot; scary thought.
>
> So it may be better to stick with '.none' and sugared 'nil'.
>
> Dany
>
> Le 7 juin 2016 à 20:16, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> a écrit :
>
> That's exactly the point I was going for.
>
> none makes more sense in this context than nil in my opinion
>
> Brandon
>
> On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Saagar Jha  wrote:
>
> Well, some is the opposite of none in that if I don’t have some, I have
> none. nil is just a carry-over from Objective-C.
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:07 PM Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> I guess for me it comes down to this:
>>
>> *Why were some and none chosen for as the cases for Optional?*
>>
>> As an extension of that, why does nil then represent none instead of the
>> obvious none?
>>
>> There has to be a reason why it's not:
>>
>> enum Optional {
>> case some(T)
>> case nil
>> }
>>
>> None seems a lot more expressive and consistent with Optional.
>>
>> I am comfortable and use to nil, but with swift being a new language, I
>> thought it was worth opening up a discussion about possibly changing
>> direction a little here.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brandon
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Jordan Rose  wrote:
>>
>> There are NilLiteralConvertible types other than Optional, but they’re
>> dwindling now that pointer nullability is represented by Optional. That
>> said, I’m not convinced renaming “nil” is worth it at this point.
>> Similarity with other languages is still a good thing.
>>
>> It’s true that we might not have picked nil if it hadn’t been for
>> Objective-C, but that doesn’t make it an invalid choice. There are lots of
>> things in Swift we might have done differently if it weren’t for
>> Objective-C and Cocoa.
>>
>> Jordan
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 12:35, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Quick thought:
>>
>>
>> If optional has a .none case, wouldn't it be more consistent to rename
>> nil to none?
>>
>>
>> Also, would nil make it into Swift if not for other languages?
>>
>>
>> It also might make it somewhat clearer:
>>
>>
>> var someInt: Int? = none //looks less like a pointer and more like a
>> value of nothing
>>
>>
>> 1. It is more consistent with the optional enum
>>
>> 2. The intent is arguably clearer
>>
>> 3. nil makes it seem like it's a pointer
>>
>> 4. Would nil be included if not for prior languages? Would "none" have
>> been chosen as the keyword if nil wasn't prior art?
>>
>>
>> One disadvantage is how close it is to .none, but with how common
>> nil/none is used, some syntactic sugar might make it look nicer than always
>> having the stray .
>>
>>
>> On vacation from Orlando, poolside, with a quick thought,
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>> ___
>>
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
> --
> -Saagar Jha
>
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>
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[Frameworks] Fwd: Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question about Monitor

[John Muse]

Stephen Partridge answers!  See below: 

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Stephen Partridge (Staff)"
> Subject: Fwd: [Frameworks] Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question 
> about Monitor
> Date: May 18, 2016 6:09:46 PM EDT
> To: "jm...@sonic.net" <jm...@sonic.net>
> 
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Stephen Partridge
>> Subject: Fwd: [Frameworks] Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question 
>> about Monitor
>> Date: 18 May 2016 23:06:16 BST
>> To: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> 
>> Yes I saw a comment from John Muse on Vimeo. I tried to reply to him via 
>> that platform but it didn’t work- I’ll try again
>> 
>> so maybe he gets it this way?
>> 
>> Monitor was made in 1974 when the vidicon cameras were not capable of much 
>> of a contrast ratio - 
>> theoretically about 8:1. People at the time referred to the image as 'grey 
>> on grey’. 
>> 
>> However i noticed that a black & white signal generator could produce a 
>> discernible range of greys as a Grey Scale with distinct shades of grey from 
>> almost black to peak white (1volt peak to peak). I wondered if this could be 
>> achieved in the studio with a video camera and experimented with the 
>> Mise-en-scène, table, wall and the monitor itself. 
>> I realised after a while that the scene was missing a mid grey or more 
>> correctly, not enough grey area from the table top, and therefore the 
>> camera’s AGC was not able to produce a deep enough black or a white enough 
>> white. I therefore put a piece of card on the wall behind the table, maybe 
>> about 3 metres behind, which produced a soft grey not too dissimilar in tone 
>> to the tabletop - but also rather ambiguous due to the focal length.
>> 
>> After a bit of further shooting, serendipity happened!…. The sticky tape 
>> that held the card to the wall came unstuck at one corner and created the 
>> diagonal, which I immediately recognised as a more dynamic composition - 
>> offering the diagonal which was much more interesting, especially as I began 
>> to manipulated the Monitor through it’s choreographed sequences.
>> 
>> 
>> regards to all interested
>> Steve Partridge
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: FrameWorks <frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com> on behalf of John 
>>> Muse <jm...@sonic.net>
>>> Sent: 18 May 2016 19:50
>>> To: Experimental Film Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question 
>>> about Monitor
>>> 
>>> Hi, Simon.  I have his email and will write him asap.  Report to follow if 
>>> he replies.
>>> 
>>> That line is definitely not the edge of the table; I thought so too, but 
>>> then students who were busily reenacting the piece (which required 
>>> un-mothballing a small monitor and an SD camera) discovered that they just 
>>> couldn't get the geometry right.  Either a wall painted for the purpose or 
>>> wainscoting.  Either way, that line folds the background into work in novel 
>>> way, particularly as it spins.  Good compositional torque that.
>>> 
>>> j
>>> 
>>> On May 18, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Simon Payne <simonrpa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dear John,
>>>> You can probably reach Stephen Partridge via his email address at the 
>>>> University of Dundee. I have always seen the diagonal line as the far edge 
>>>> of the table that the monitor is sitting on, so I'm intrigued by your 
>>>> suggestion that it's something more complicated.
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Simon Payne
>>>> 
>>>> On 17 May 2016, at 22:07, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Anyone want to share contact info for Stephen Partridge.  I have a 
>>>>> question about his work Monitor https://vimeo.com/19121750  It's simple 
>>>>> really, and I posted it to "Steve Partridge" via the vimeo account.  The 
>>>>> monitor sits on a table and behind it is a sharp diagonal line which cuts 
>>>>> through the feedback loop.  The line appears to be on a wall: it might be 
>>>>> the edge formed between a light colored paint above and darker 
>>>

Re: [Frameworks] Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question about Monitor

[John Muse]

Hi, Simon.  I have his email and will write him asap.  Report to follow if he 
replies.

That line is definitely not the edge of the table; I thought so too, but then 
students who were busily reenacting the piece (which required un-mothballing a 
small monitor and an SD camera) discovered that they just couldn't get the 
geometry right.  Either a wall painted for the purpose or wainscoting.  Either 
way, that line folds the background into work in novel way, particularly as it 
spins.  Good compositional torque that.

j

On May 18, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Simon Payne <simonrpa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear John,
> You can probably reach Stephen Partridge via his email address at the 
> University of Dundee. I have always seen the diagonal line as the far edge of 
> the table that the monitor is sitting on, so I'm intrigued by your suggestion 
> that it's something more complicated.
> Best wishes,
> Simon Payne
> 
> On 17 May 2016, at 22:07, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> 
>> Anyone want to share contact info for Stephen Partridge.  I have a question 
>> about his work Monitor https://vimeo.com/19121750  It's simple really, and I 
>> posted it to "Steve Partridge" via the vimeo account.  The monitor sits on a 
>> table and behind it is a sharp diagonal line which cuts through the feedback 
>> loop.  The line appears to be on a wall: it might be the edge formed between 
>> a light colored paint above and darker wainscoting below--I can just make 
>> out some vertical lines in the darker surface which may be a sign of 
>> wainscoting.  The line would then be diagonal because the table on which the 
>> monitor sits is at an angle to the wall, the right corner of the table 
>> closer to the wall and the left side of the table, which extends beyond the 
>> edge of the frame, farther.  Anyone have a better guess or definitive 
>> information?  
>> 
>> Thanks! 
>> 
>> j/PrM
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> john muse
>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>> haverford college
>> http://www.finleymuse.com
>> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
>> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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[Frameworks] Stephen Partridge contact info: and/or a question about Monitor

[John Muse]

Anyone want to share contact info for Stephen Partridge.  I have a question 
about his work Monitor https://vimeo.com/19121750  It's simple really, and I 
posted it to "Steve Partridge" via the vimeo account.  The monitor sits on a 
table and behind it is a sharp diagonal line which cuts through the feedback 
loop.  The line appears to be on a wall: it might be the edge formed between a 
light colored paint above and darker wainscoting below--I can just make out 
some vertical lines in the darker surface which may be a sign of wainscoting.  
The line would then be diagonal because the table on which the monitor sits is 
at an angle to the wall, the right corner of the table closer to the wall and 
the left side of the table, which extends beyond the edge of the frame, 
farther.  Anyone have a better guess or definitive information?  

Thanks! 

j/PrM

*****

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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[swift-evolution] [Idea] A 128-bit unsigned integer value type

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Most programming languages does have 128-bit of type except Swift.
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Re: [Frameworks] Exemplary Sound Design in AG Film

[John Muse]

I love the sound of Dresden Dynamo by Lis Rhodes.  And Violin Power by Steina 
Vasulka.

On May 15, 2016, at 5:32 PM, alena williams <al...@lowculture.com> wrote:

> anger's invocation of my demon brother
> 
> On 15.05.2016, at 12:36, lagonaboba <lagonab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> For a class I’m preparing, I’m interested in suggestions as to Experimental 
>> Films with exemplary, excellent sound design and sound editing.
>> By excellent I mean, complex, layered, inventive, of rich and nuanced 
>> timbre….excellent for it’s sonic qualities (as opposed to strictly 
>> intellectual qualities).
>> As I plan to rent prints, it would be helpful if the works were available 
>> from FMC, Canyon, MOMA or some USA domestic distributor.
>> I would include:
>> 
>> Baillie’s Castro Street  & Quick Billy, 
>> Kubelka’s Unsere Afrikareise, 
>> Hindle’s Watersmith
>> Jack Chambers’ Hart of London
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0081: Move where clause to end of declaration

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

** What is your evaluation of the proposal?*
A novelty idea

** Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to
Swift?*
Some programmers love compact code and make Swift no difference to other
languages, change is indeed easier and almost no barrier for all level of
readers.

** Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?*
It makes presentation slide and teaching readability and avoid information
overload when dealing large scale projects.

** If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature,
how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?*
NIL


** How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading,
or an in-depth study?*
A glance at the code,


On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> On May 10, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Jordan Rose via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I think actual keyword “where” provides enough of a delimiter that it
> won’t be hard to put something before it, and it seems unlikely to me that
> we would want to add anything *after* it without some *other* delimiter.
> So I’m not too concerned.
>
>
> Yeah, that’s my feeling as well.
>
> - Doug
>
>
> Jordan
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 14:29, Hooman Mehr via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Although handy for now, I am a bit concerned about moving `where` clause
> to the end of declaration. This reserves and occupies this wide open space
> at the end of declarations. I think we might find a better use for this
> space later as the language evolves. Any thoughts?
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Swift community,
>
> The review of "SE-0081: Move where clause to end of declaration" begins
> now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here:
>
>
> https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0081-move-where-expression.md
>
> Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews
> should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at
>
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the
> review manager.
>
> What goes into a review?
>
> The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review
> through constructive criticism and contribute to the direction of Swift.
> When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer
> in your review:
>
> * What is your evaluation of the proposal?
> * Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to
> Swift?
> * Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?
> * If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature,
> how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?
> * How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading,
> or an in-depth study?
>
> More information about the Swift evolution process is available at
>
> https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Chris Lattner
> Review Manager
>
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> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
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[swift-evolution] [Proposal] Memorization for running function only once

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Hi,

I propose* "*memorization" or "memo" keyword for a function that allows to
run only once through out the lifecycle in Swift 3. Repeatedly execute the
function will only return the same result without having to rerun the
function everytime.

memo func hello(fname: String, lname: String) {
   return fname.lname
}

This is useful for certain case for web application and value that don't
need change once executed.
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Re: [Frameworks] Films with drawing-in-the-soil trope

[John Muse]

Cinthia Marcelle, "475 Volver," (2009) https://vimeo.com/4087547

I love this woman's work!  https://vimeo.com/cimarcelle/videos

j

On May 4, 2016, at 4:03 PM, "drawclose.com" <snowbloods.para...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Julie Taymor's 'Titus' - Titus Andronicus 
> 
> The closing act hinges on revelation made by Titus' injured daughter writing 
> the names of her assailants in the earth. 
> 
> 
> 
> Jessica
> 
> *
> http://www.drawclose.com
> 
>> On May 4, 2016, at 1:46 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Francis Alÿs, “Green Line” (2007)
>> Francis Alÿs, "Reel/Unreel" (2011)
>> 
>> j
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Christopher Lange <cinepa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ana Mendieta used her body and made body sculpture with land in her films.  
>>> Some of it looks like drawing in the land, but it’s related to how duration 
>>> changes, damages, and takes the body away, or how culture is mixed in with 
>>> nature, I thought.  Not really writing.  But the films are good.
>>> 
>>> -Chris
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Christopher Lange
>>> www.chris-lange.com
>>> 
>>>> On May 4, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Ken Eisenstein <ken7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hawks' Red River
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Robert Cargni Mitchell 
>>>> <rcar...@ihphilly.org> wrote:
>>>> Francisco,
>>>> 
>>>> Any films will do. Thx!
>>>> 
>>>> RC
>>>> 
>>>> Robert E. Cargni | Associate Director of Arts | Senior Curator
>>>> International House Philadelphia | Programs Office
>>>> 
>>>> 3701 CHESTNUT STREET | PHILADELPHIA, PA 19104
>>>> phone: 215.895.6555   |  fax: 215.895.6562
>>>> email: rcar...@ihphilly.org | web: www.ihousephilly.org
>>>> ___
>>>> ___
>>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
>> j/PrM
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> john muse
>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>> haverford college
>> http://www.finleymuse.com
>> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
>> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
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> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 

j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [Frameworks] Films with drawing-in-the-soil trope

[John Muse]

Francis Alÿs, “Green Line” (2007)
Francis Alÿs, "Reel/Unreel" (2011)

j

On May 4, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Christopher Lange <cinepa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ana Mendieta used her body and made body sculpture with land in her films.  
> Some of it looks like drawing in the land, but it’s related to how duration 
> changes, damages, and takes the body away, or how culture is mixed in with 
> nature, I thought.  Not really writing.  But the films are good.
> 
> -Chris
> 
> --
> 
> Christopher Lange
> www.chris-lange.com
> 
> On May 4, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Ken Eisenstein <ken7...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hawks' Red River
>> 
>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Robert Cargni Mitchell 
>> <rcar...@ihphilly.org> wrote:
>> Francisco,
>> 
>> Any films will do. Thx!
>> 
>> RC
>> 
>> Robert E. Cargni | Associate Director of Arts | Senior Curator
>> International House Philadelphia | Programs Office
>> 
>> 3701 CHESTNUT STREET | PHILADELPHIA, PA 19104
>> phone: 215.895.6555   |  fax: 215.895.6562
>> email: rcar...@ihphilly.org | web: www.ihousephilly.org
>> ___
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
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>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
>> ___
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> 
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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Re: [Frameworks] Research advice

[John Muse]

Hi, Simonetta.  Four things come to mind immediately: Levinas on the face of 
the other, Deleuze and Guattari on faciality, Irving Goffman on facework, and 
Rosemarie Garland-Thompson's research on facework from within a disability 
studies framework.  Three links to get you started:

https://danieltutt.com/2012/01/26/whats-a-face-why-dismantle-it/
http://sociological-eye.blogspot.com/2013/10/goffman-and-garfinkel-in-intellectual.html
http://www.rosemariegarlandthomson.com/publications/#/books/

Good luck!

j

On Apr 2, 2016, at 8:18 AM, Simonetta Menossi <simonetta.meno...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Dear Frameworks,
> 
> This is Simonetta. I am writing because I need advice.
> 
> I am writing a project proposal about facelessness and namelessness of film 
> characters in superhero movies and in many other film genres.
> 
> What type of sources (not films for now) would you recommend with which I 
> could start my research/study? 
> 
> Issues of identity and gender are certainly involved.
> 
> Thank you for your help. I truly appreciate it.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Simonetta Menossi
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] (nostalgia) versions...

[John Muse]

According to my count, all of the narrations begin 5 seconds (up to 4 frames at 
24fps, less in most cases) before the next image appears, with one second of 
black between the burnt and the "raw."

> But Segal is so wrong: no narration begins 15 to 20 seconds *after* the next 
> photograph appears; they all begin before.  That's not a precision problem; 
> that's a version problem.  At least I think so.  She can't have made this 
> kind of mistake, no?
> 
> But now I have Premiere open and I'm measuring the audio and visual cuts…  
> Back to you in a bit!
> 
> j
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 4, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Michael Zryd <z...@yorku.ca> wrote:
> 
>> I don’t think there are two distinct versions. I suspect (though to be 
>> honest I haven’t used a stop watch to time it) that Shira may be ascribing a 
>> precision to the film which it in fact lacks—though the ascription is 
>> entirely understandable since, as a foundational ‘structural film’ using a 
>> strategy of repetition, (nostalgia) invites an expectation that it’s all 
>> worked out in advance, and that each unit is structurally consistent. 
>> 
>> But each photo burns differently (the photographic paper is likely 
>> different), and (at least according to an analysis by Steina at the ZKM show 
>> on Buffalo Media Study) each segment has a slightly different length. 
>> 
>> There’s an interesting study to be done on differing descriptions of 
>> experimental films to explore the different ways in which we see, describe, 
>> and interpret these works.
>> 
>>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 2:31 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> But is the Treasures version the one Segal describes, and is that the, um, 
>>> authorized version?  And is the one on the Odyssey collection, which Brand 
>>> worked on too, authorized as well?  Are there two distinct versions 
>>> circulating?
>>> 
>>> I just had that Treasures comp in my hands, but I returned it to our 
>>> library.  Dang!
>>> 
>>> j
>>> 
>>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Mark Toscano <mrkt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The transfer on the Treasures IV set was supervised by the inimitable Mr 
>>>> Bill Brand, who knows the films intimately, and also has helped supervise 
>>>> restorations and digital mastering of numerous other Frampton films.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark T
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Ken Eisenstein <ken7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Cf. the version on Treasures
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.filmpreservation.org/dvds-and-books/treasures-iv-american-avant-garde-film
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:06 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> Having checked with the usual suspects, I'm at a loss to explain the 
>>>> discrepancy between the version of (nostalgia) on the 2012 Criterion disk 
>>>> and the version described by a few folks, one being Shari Segal, who in a 
>>>> 2005 essay entitled From the Private to the Public" writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> Each voice-over begins fifteen to twenty seconds after the new photograph 
>>>>> appears, precisely the amount of time permitted before the photograph’s 
>>>>> destruction visibly begins.
>>>> 
>>>> This doesn't describe the voice-over to image relationship I see in the 
>>>> 2012 disk.  The voice-overs begin before the new image arrives, not 20 
>>>> seconds after.  Is she wrong?  Or did she see a different film?
>>>> 
>>>> Clues?  And I apologize if the answer is obvious.
>>>> 
>>>> j/PrM
>>>> 
>>>> *
>>>> 
>>>> john muse
>>>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>>>> haverford college
>>>> http://www.finleymuse.com
>>>> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
>>>> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
>>>> 
>>>> *
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> FrameWorks mailing list
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>>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> __

Re: [Frameworks] (nostalgia) versions...

[John Muse]

But Segal is so wrong: no narration begins 15 to 20 seconds *after* the next 
photograph appears; they all begin before.  That's not a precision problem; 
that's a version problem.  At least I think so.  She can't have made this kind 
of mistake, no?

But now I have Premiere open and I'm measuring the audio and visual cuts…  Back 
to you in a bit!

j




On Mar 4, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Michael Zryd <z...@yorku.ca> wrote:

> I don’t think there are two distinct versions. I suspect (though to be honest 
> I haven’t used a stop watch to time it) that Shira may be ascribing a 
> precision to the film which it in fact lacks—though the ascription is 
> entirely understandable since, as a foundational ‘structural film’ using a 
> strategy of repetition, (nostalgia) invites an expectation that it’s all 
> worked out in advance, and that each unit is structurally consistent. 
> 
> But each photo burns differently (the photographic paper is likely 
> different), and (at least according to an analysis by Steina at the ZKM show 
> on Buffalo Media Study) each segment has a slightly different length. 
> 
> There’s an interesting study to be done on differing descriptions of 
> experimental films to explore the different ways in which we see, describe, 
> and interpret these works.
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 2:31 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> But is the Treasures version the one Segal describes, and is that the, um, 
>> authorized version?  And is the one on the Odyssey collection, which Brand 
>> worked on too, authorized as well?  Are there two distinct versions 
>> circulating?
>> 
>> I just had that Treasures comp in my hands, but I returned it to our 
>> library.  Dang!
>> 
>> j
>> 
>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Mark Toscano <mrkt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> The transfer on the Treasures IV set was supervised by the inimitable Mr 
>>> Bill Brand, who knows the films intimately, and also has helped supervise 
>>> restorations and digital mastering of numerous other Frampton films.
>>> 
>>> Mark T
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Ken Eisenstein <ken7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cf. the version on Treasures
>>> 
>>> http://www.filmpreservation.org/dvds-and-books/treasures-iv-american-avant-garde-film
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:06 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> Having checked with the usual suspects, I'm at a loss to explain the 
>>> discrepancy between the version of (nostalgia) on the 2012 Criterion disk 
>>> and the version described by a few folks, one being Shari Segal, who in a 
>>> 2005 essay entitled From the Private to the Public" writes:
>>> 
>>>> Each voice-over begins fifteen to twenty seconds after the new photograph 
>>>> appears, precisely the amount of time permitted before the photograph’s 
>>>> destruction visibly begins.
>>> 
>>> This doesn't describe the voice-over to image relationship I see in the 
>>> 2012 disk.  The voice-overs begin before the new image arrives, not 20 
>>> seconds after.  Is she wrong?  Or did she see a different film?
>>> 
>>> Clues?  And I apologize if the answer is obvious.
>>> 
>>> j/PrM
>>> 
>>> *
>>> 
>>> john muse
>>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>>> haverford college
>>> http://www.finleymuse.com
>>> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
>>> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
>>> 
>>> *
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
>> j/PrM
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> john muse
>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>> haverford coll

Re: [Frameworks] (nostalgia) versions...

[John Muse]

But is the Treasures version the one Segal describes, and is that the, um, 
authorized version?  And is the one on the Odyssey collection, which Brand 
worked on too, authorized as well?  Are there two distinct versions circulating?

I just had that Treasures comp in my hands, but I returned it to our library.  
Dang!

j

On Mar 4, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Mark Toscano <mrkt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The transfer on the Treasures IV set was supervised by the inimitable Mr Bill 
> Brand, who knows the films intimately, and also has helped supervise 
> restorations and digital mastering of numerous other Frampton films.
> 
> Mark T
> 
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Ken Eisenstein <ken7...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Cf. the version on Treasures
> 
> http://www.filmpreservation.org/dvds-and-books/treasures-iv-american-avant-garde-film
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:06 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Having checked with the usual suspects, I'm at a loss to explain the 
> discrepancy between the version of (nostalgia) on the 2012 Criterion disk and 
> the version described by a few folks, one being Shari Segal, who in a 2005 
> essay entitled From the Private to the Public" writes:
> 
> > Each voice-over begins fifteen to twenty seconds after the new photograph 
> > appears, precisely the amount of time permitted before the photograph’s 
> > destruction visibly begins.
> 
> This doesn't describe the voice-over to image relationship I see in the 2012 
> disk.  The voice-overs begin before the new image arrives, not 20 seconds 
> after.  Is she wrong?  Or did she see a different film?
> 
> Clues?  And I apologize if the answer is obvious.
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
> haverford college
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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[Frameworks] (nostalgia) versions...

[John Muse]

Having checked with the usual suspects, I'm at a loss to explain the 
discrepancy between the version of (nostalgia) on the 2012 Criterion disk and 
the version described by a few folks, one being Shari Segal, who in a 2005 
essay entitled From the Private to the Public" writes:

> Each voice-over begins fifteen to twenty seconds after the new photograph 
> appears, precisely the amount of time permitted before the photograph’s 
> destruction visibly begins.

This doesn't describe the voice-over to image relationship I see in the 2012 
disk.  The voice-overs begin before the new image arrives, not 20 seconds 
after.  Is she wrong?  Or did she see a different film?

Clues?  And I apologize if the answer is obvious.  

j/PrM

*****

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] 360 degrees

[John Muse]

Ah!  Thanks for this tale.  I'll share it with students.

I like this film; not what I expect from Viola; nice to see this. 

On Mar 1, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Gene Youngblood <ato...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Right! I forgot about that one. He did it by suspending the camera from a 
> ceiling fan. The cable wrapped around the fan until it wouldn’t rotate any 
> more, then he reversed the direction of the fan and video’d until it wrapped 
> up again. He hung the camera so that the orbit wouldn’t be a perfect circle. 
> He put the microphone in a trash can so the voices sound distant.
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2016, at 5:25 PM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> One more, because I'm watching it now!  Bill Viola's Sweet Light: many 360's 
>> around a candle in the center of a table. 
>> 
>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Gene Youngblood <ato...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks again, all, for these suggestions. It seems the subject is of 
>>> interest to Frameworkers. We saw Peter Greenaway’s “Eisenstein in 
>>> Guanajuato” today. It’s a mess overall, but it does have some very 
>>> inventive circular camera moves, all the more interesting for the way 
>>> they’re edited. One scene alternates rapidly between 360-degree dollies and 
>>> pans in one space, something I hadn’t seen before.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Salise Hughes <salise.hug...@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It's been a while since I've seen Fassbender's Whity, but I remember an 
>>>> inverted 380 tracking shot focused on the exchange of cash, the moment 
>>>> love turned to commerce. 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:13 PM, salise.hug...@gmail.com 
>>>> <salise.hug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Fassbender's Whity (1971).
>>>> 
>>>> - Reply message -
>>>> From: "Hardin, Ted" <thar...@colum.edu>
>>>> To: "Experimental Film Discussion List" <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
>>>> Subject: [Frameworks] 360 degrees
>>>> Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 8:27 pm
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Rainer Werner Fassbinder’s fondness for this technique was on display at 
>>>> the Martin Gropius Bau in Berlin last year.  Here’s a list of films that 
>>>> were displayed:  “Another room in Fassbinder – JETZT is dedicated to one 
>>>> of Fassbinder’s favoured formal techniques: the 360 degree tracking shot. 
>>>> Scenes from Rio das Mortes (1970), World on a Wire(1973), Martha (1973), 
>>>> Chinese Roulette (1976), Berlin Alexanderplatz (1979/80), and Querelle 
>>>> (1982) play on a loop on a hanging screen.”
>>>> 
>>>> ‘Chinese Roulette’ has my favorite 720 degree tracking shot through glass 
>>>> shelves.
>>>> 
>>>> The write up:  
>>>> http://berlinfilmjournal.com/2015/08/petrified-fassbinder-jetzt-annotated/ 
>>>> 
>>>> ‘Martha’  clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z0tVsI-63g
>>>> 
>>>> Ted Hardin
>>>> Columbia College Chicago
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 23, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A handheld 360 movement around two young men kissing in an obvious homage 
>>>>> to the "Vertigo" kiss appears in Warren Sonbert's first film, 
>>>>> "Amphetamine."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fred Camper
>>>>> Chicago
>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
>>>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Salise Hughes
>>>> Artist, Filmmaker, Armchair Anthropologist
>>>> 
>>>> http://salisehughes.blogspot.com
>>>> https://vimeo.com/user1421998
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
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>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/fr

Re: [Frameworks] 360 degrees

[John Muse]

One more, because I'm watching it now!  Bill Viola's Sweet Light: many 360's 
around a candle in the center of a table. 

On Feb 24, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Gene Youngblood <ato...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Thanks again, all, for these suggestions. It seems the subject is of interest 
> to Frameworkers. We saw Peter Greenaway’s “Eisenstein in Guanajuato” today. 
> It’s a mess overall, but it does have some very inventive circular camera 
> moves, all the more interesting for the way they’re edited. One scene 
> alternates rapidly between 360-degree dollies and pans in one space, 
> something I hadn’t seen before.
> 
> 
>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Salise Hughes <salise.hug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It's been a while since I've seen Fassbender's Whity, but I remember an 
>> inverted 380 tracking shot focused on the exchange of cash, the moment love 
>> turned to commerce. 
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:13 PM, salise.hug...@gmail.com 
>> <salise.hug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Fassbender's Whity (1971).
>> 
>> - Reply message -
>> From: "Hardin, Ted" <thar...@colum.edu>
>> To: "Experimental Film Discussion List" <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
>> Subject: [Frameworks] 360 degrees
>> Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 8:27 pm
>> 
>> 
>> Rainer Werner Fassbinder’s fondness for this technique was on display at the 
>> Martin Gropius Bau in Berlin last year.  Here’s a list of films that were 
>> displayed:  “Another room in Fassbinder – JETZT is dedicated to one of 
>> Fassbinder’s favoured formal techniques: the 360 degree tracking shot. 
>> Scenes from Rio das Mortes (1970), World on a Wire(1973), Martha (1973), 
>> Chinese Roulette (1976), Berlin Alexanderplatz (1979/80), and Querelle 
>> (1982) play on a loop on a hanging screen.”
>> 
>> ‘Chinese Roulette’ has my favorite 720 degree tracking shot through glass 
>> shelves.
>> 
>> The write up:  
>> http://berlinfilmjournal.com/2015/08/petrified-fassbinder-jetzt-annotated/ 
>> 
>> ‘Martha’  clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z0tVsI-63g
>> 
>> Ted Hardin
>> Columbia College Chicago
>> 
>>> On Feb 23, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A handheld 360 movement around two young men kissing in an obvious homage 
>>> to the "Vertigo" kiss appears in Warren Sonbert's first film, "Amphetamine."
>>> 
>>> Fred Camper
>>> Chicago
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Salise Hughes
>> Artist, Filmmaker, Armchair Anthropologist
>> 
>> http://salisehughes.blogspot.com
>> https://vimeo.com/user1421998
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Lis Rhodes? Dynamo Dresden fan? + synch?

[John Muse]

I agree with you, Mark.  After watching the "Shoot Shoot Shoot" version last 
night in a hall with a wonderful sound system, I could only think of the fire 
bombing of Dresden, which is curious because London, obviously, knows these 
sounds as well.  That Dresden must be the reference; and even if it's not, it 
should be.  None too subtle either: the score and the parades and swarms and 
cascades and conspire to put thousands of planes in the sky; some patterns 
resemble crosshairs, maps, rail lines and spurs, urban spaces.  Fully 
metaphoric?  No, but forgive me for trying.  A futurist anthem?  Not likely.  
And I'm not trying to reduce the work to this reference, to war and 
bombardment, but this reference matters, as does cinema's role in new modes of 
visualization, in reconnaissance and damage assessment--think of screening this 
before Farocki's "Images of the World and the Inscriptions of War."  The 
impulse to produce the work was materialist, playful, inspired.  The resulting 
work though has these resonances; the title simply owns up to them, no?

The synch offset: we're all agreed!

j

On Feb 25, 2016, at 7:12 AM, Mark Webber <m...@markwebber.org.uk> wrote:

> I believe the title is also a reference to the bombing of Dresden in World 
> War II, and the qualities of the soundtrack suggest this also. Its remarkable 
> how much this soundtrack varies according to the projector it is shown on. 
> 
> As Nicky Hamlyn stated, the soundtrack was offset after being made to put it 
> in sync with the image during projection. (Light Music was done the same way.)
> 
> It’s remarkable how much these soundtracks vary according to the projector 
> they are shown on.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> Can anyone motivate the title of Lis Rhodes' Dynamo Dresden?  Or is she a 
>> fan of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo_Dresden ?
>> 
>> I was hoping that either the Letratone or the clear leader was manufactured 
>> in Dresden.
>> 
>> And she claims that the optical track and the visual track are the same, but 
>> it looks like (and sounds like) she offset the optical track (26 frames 
>> ahead) so that there would visual and acoustic synch, even though she 
>> fabricated the optical track and the visual track in one go.  If you go to 
>> http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern-tanks/display/lis-rhodes-light-music
>>  and scroll down to the video, you'll see at 51" prints of the film strip.  
>> Right?  Wrong?
>> 
>> j/PrM
> 
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> FrameWorks mailing list
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Lis Rhodes? Dynamo Dresden fan? + synch?

[John Muse]

Thanks, Nicky!  I would love to know a little more about "no particular 
reason."  It could be the alliteration.  It could be the ridiculousness of 
these two words.  I could be something about power and the bombing of Dresden.  
Or a nod to Lye whose titles, e.g., Free Radicals, are evocative and pithy.  
Yes, I'm reaching!  

Thanks for confirming my thoughts about the synch!

j

On Feb 24, 2016, at 5:23 PM, Nicky Hamlyn <nicky.ham...@talktalk.net> wrote:

> As far as I know it's named after the football club, for no particular 
> reason. Letratone was made somewhere in Kent, south east England,  but not 
> any more. They have offices in LeMans: www.letraset.com. The film was made 
> section by section under an enlarger, from B originals printed through 
> colour filters and yes, obviously the sound would be finally printed 26 
> frames ahead, to put it in sync.
> 
> Nicky.
> 
> 
> 
>  John Muse a écrit 
> 
> Can anyone motivate the title of Lis Rhodes' Dynamo Dresden?  Or is she a fan 
> of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo_Dresden ?
> 
> I was hoping that either the Letratone or the clear leader was manufactured 
> in Dresden.
> 
> And she claims that the optical track and the visual track are the same, but 
> it looks like (and sounds like) she offset the optical track (26 frames 
> ahead) so that there would visual and acoustic synch, even though she 
> fabricated the optical track and the visual track in one go.  If you go to 
> http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern-tanks/display/lis-rhodes-light-music
>  and scroll down to the video, you'll see at 51" prints of the film strip.  
> Right?  Wrong?
> 
> j/PrM
> 
> *
> 
> john muse
> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
> haverford college
> http://www.finleymuse.com
> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
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> FrameWorks mailing list
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> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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[Frameworks] Lis Rhodes? Dynamo Dresden fan? + synch?

[John Muse]

Can anyone motivate the title of Lis Rhodes' Dynamo Dresden?  Or is she a fan 
of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo_Dresden ?

I was hoping that either the Letratone or the clear leader was manufactured in 
Dresden.

And she claims that the optical track and the visual track are the same, but it 
looks like (and sounds like) she offset the optical track (26 frames ahead) so 
that there would visual and acoustic synch, even though she fabricated the 
optical track and the visual track in one go.  If you go to 
http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern-tanks/display/lis-rhodes-light-music
 and scroll down to the video, you'll see at 51" prints of the film strip.  
Right?  Wrong?

j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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Re: [Frameworks] Annette Michelson and Peter Gidal

[John Muse]

Thanks so much for this, Mark.  You've given us so much delicious food for 
thought!

On Feb 23, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Mark Webber <m...@markwebber.org.uk> wrote:

> The Visible Press is about to publish a collection of writings by Peter Gidal 
> titled “Flare Out: Aesthetics 1966–2016”, which I have also edited. Please 
> see below for further information. The book does include Gidal’s letter to 
> Artforum, alongside many other texts from the past 50 years. The full table 
> of contents - and the possibility to order online (since we don’t have 
> distribution) - are at http://www.thevisiblepress.com/flare-out/
> 
> I do know that Gidal and Michelson are on good terms and have been for many 
> years since this exchange, and I’m quite sure that the decision of what to 
> include, or to not include, in the “Structural Film Anthology” would have 
> been his. I asked him about John Muse’s question over the inclusion of 
> Annette’s piece on Michael Snow and his response was as follows :- 
> 
> “because it was the most appropriate, and dominant, and wrongheaded american 
> formalist (ps: the very opposite of say schklovskian formalism) response to 
> mike snow's film, and the anthology, like e.g.the co-op cinema,wasn't there 
> to impose one position but to problematize, in the case of the co-op, film, 
> in the case of the anthology, film theory and criticism. i knew i could've 
> written a far more appropriate and radical piece on wavelength, but chose not 
> to. my "reply" in a sense was my piece on his films back and forth and 
> standard time. 
> 
> “and this is not to ignite some old battles with annette as i have no 
> intention of not getting along with her famously, same goes for her i am 
> sure.” 
> 
> The book will be published on 11 April 2016 but is now available to 
> pre-order. I will post further information, including details of related 
> events, on Frameworks at a later date. 
> 
> Mark Webber
> 
> ...
> 
> PETER GIDAL / FLARE OUT: AESTHETICS1966–2016
> Edited by Mark Webber and Peter Gidal
> The Visible Press, April 2016
> 
> “Flare Out: Aesthetics 1966–2016” is a collection of essays by Peter Gidal 
> that includes “Theory and Definition of Structural/Materialist Film” and 
> other texts on metaphor, narrative, and against sexual representation. Also 
> discussed in their specificity are works by Samuel Beckett, Thérèse Oulton, 
> Gerhard Richter and Andy Warhol. Throughout, Gidal’s writing attempts a 
> political aesthetics, polemical as well as theoretical. One of the foremost 
> experimental film-makers in Britain since the late 1960s, Peter Gidal was a 
> central figure at the London Film-Makers’ Co-operative, and taught advanced 
> film theory at the Royal College of Art. His previous books include "Andy 
> Warhol: Films and Paintings (1971)”, “Understanding Beckett” (1986) and 
> “Materialist Film” (1989).
> 
> “An essential point of access to the questions and considerations through 
> which Peter Gidal has consistently fought for film – and vision itself – as a 
> process of interrogation. This collection renews the agency of his primary 
> question: ‘What is it to view, how to view the unknown?’”
>  (Stuart Comer, Museum of Modern Art, New York)
> 
> “Radical, spirited, provocative … Inspiring and invaluable, really. In here 
> we find a welcome voice, singularly unpatronising, nuanced yet fearless in 
> the face of the mind-narrowing opacity of ‘everyday life’.”
>  (Cerith Wyn Evans)
> 
> ISBN 978-0-9928377-1-6 
> Hardcover, 288 pages including 16pp images
> Square-backed case, debossed cover and spine, ribbon marker, h/t bands
> Price: £18 plus shipping
> 
> www.thevisiblepress.com
> www.facebook.com/thevisiblepress
> @thevisiblepress
> 
>> On 23 Feb 2016, at 12:00, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote:
>> 
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:00:15 -0500
>> From: John Muse <jm...@sonic.net>
>> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
>> Subject: [Frameworks] Annette Michelson and Peter Gidal
>> Message-ID: <166d25f7-8dd8-4be7-a6e0-1d42d832c...@sonic.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>> 
>> Can someone briefly explain--or point me to resources that explain--how it 
>> is that in 1976 Peter Gidal can include Annette Michelson's June 1971 
>> Artforum piece "Towards Snow" in his Structural Film Anthology when in the 
>> September 1971 issue of Artforum he excoriates her and this piece in 
>> particular, beginning a letter to the editor, 
>> 
>>> In a remarkably wrongheaded piece, Annette Michelson, in the june Artforum 
>>> asserts, with reference to Michael S

Re: [Frameworks] Annette Michelson and Peter Gidal

[John Muse]

Dave, thanks for these speculations, which are helpful and not even wrongheaded.

1. I wholly except and will use your revision: not "structuralist/materialist 
films by women" but "films by women relevant to the debates around 
structuralists and structuralist/materialist cinema." 

2. Yes, Gidal treats Michelson as worthy of attack, but by both careful 
argumentation and invective, colorful and wry, but invective nonetheless.  
E.g., while I'll grant you that "wrongheaded" can be interpreted as wrong but 
not stupid, Gidal's next sentence doubles down on the latter: "Now even the 
most simpleminded film goer such as myself knows and feels, intuitively (and 
rationally, if ratio is needed) that space has always been defined in terms of 
action (inner and outer)."  "Simpleminded" is stupid.  And Michelson on this 
account isn't even stupid; there's only room for mindlessness beyond 
simpleminded.  Gidal includes the Michelson in his anthology but not the 
exchange of letters, which, to my mind--simple or otherwise--would have made it 
an even richer pot.  Contrasts, as you say!  A heap.  I speculate that he let 
her essay stand, spicing his new pot, but he didn't want to, um, stir the old 
pot once more.

3. My notion of "including Ono and Ackerman [sic]" is, you're right, 
wrongheaded.  I could defend against-the-grain because I was, naively, 
interested in taking Gidal's position to be uniform, wanting to understand, for 
example why Kubelka's "Arunulf Rainer" doesn't make the cut.  Compositional 
rather than algorithmic perhaps?  Ono's Four (Bottoms) and Akerman's La 
Chambre, would they please him at all?  Or be infuriating because the former 
doesn't meet Warhol's challenge, merely being "cheeky," and the latter gives us 
unity of time and place?  But I do like and will use your final claim: every 
cut is against the grain because "the lumber in question can't be cut or planed 
smooth in any direction, and the whole point of the wood-crafting is to pull up 
splinters."  That's lovely and true.  I'll only add that the whole point could 
include measuring local isotropies, taking the measure of its durability.  
Gidal isn't the only voice.  But what a voice!  What a grain!  I love the 
Anthology and his prose.  Once I've moved to "relevant to the debates" then we 
still need to either resurrect or have those debates.  I say Ono and Akerman 
become more interesting when considered in relation to these debates though I 
don't know if they were ever relevant to it, if, e.g., anyone has written about 
their work in light of formalist/materialist division.

j



On Feb 23, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Dave Tetzlaff <djte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been thinking, about the original query from John Muse in light of the 
> follow-up query about Michelson, doing some wild-ass speculating. Mark's post 
> (he certainly knows WAY more about this than I do) suggests my imaginings are 
> at least not grossly inconsistent with known facts. And my concluding 
> suggestions are that John's project is misconceived in taking 
> 'structuralist/materialist' as a genre, and could be more productively framed 
> as 'films by women relevant to the debates around "structuralists" and 
> "structuralist/materialist" cinema'.
> ___
> 
> I wasn't thinking about the possibility any interpersonal tension might be 
> involved in Gidal's choices – and I'm not at all surprised there isn't any. 
> Rather I was thinking about the function of his choices in relation to the 
> theoretical/critical issues around different concepts of avant grade film, 
> 'formalist' aesthetics, etc. 
> 
> From what I remember (it's been, errr, awhile) Gidal's own essays are quite 
> polemical, define 'structuralist/materialist' quite narrowly, and pretty 
> hard-line towards anything/anyone that doesn't fit his aesthetic politics. I 
> took the core of the position to be a radical left politics of representation 
> – a sort of '_Screen_ Theory' on steroids – in which the goal is a sort of 
> film that disrupts 'the dominant ideology', but goes way beyond the Brechtian 
> concepts someone like Colin McCabe celebrates in the work of Godard. As 
> radical politics, the 'structuralist/materialist' writings have some 
> qualities of political manifestos – 'out there' in a bold way designed to 
> disrupt and stir the pot, not necessarily to be followed to the letter. 
> 
> Thus, it makes sense to frame an edited anthology around the pot, not just 
> the spoon. Having some stuff to debate is part of the fun of most good 
> anthologies, and helps sell the book, as faculty will be more likely to use 
> it if it offers useful contrasts between essays. 'Wrongheaded' is not 
> necessarily 'bad'. 'Bad' would be something so off-base it's not worth 
&

Re: [Frameworks] Annette Michelson and Peter Gidal

[John Muse]

Thanks, Jonathan.  Right, to his credit, Gidal "curates" in the conflict with 
Snow over "Back and Forth."  Love that.

The Michelson excerpt includes the line that seems to offend him most: "Snow 
has re-defined filmic space as that of action."  Strange that he doesn't 
include the exchange of letters.  Maybe he wanted to but was denied rights?

j

On Feb 22, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Jonathan Walley <wall...@denison.edu> wrote:

> Interesting question. Keep in mind that Gidal also included and essay on Ken 
> Jacobs’ Tom Tom... (by Lois Mendelson and Bill Simon, also from Artforum) 
> that he (Gidal) expressly marked as “symptomatic of current misunderstanding” 
> and “fetishization of process and idealization of the formal in its weak 
> sense.” Vidal attributed the same “blindness” to the film itself. So he was 
> open to polemically including “bad” essays.
> 
> He doesn’t include a similar note about the Michelson piece, though he only 
> includes an excerpt. Perhaps he found that excerpt less “wrongheaded” than 
> other passages in the essay. The entire Snow section of Structural Film 
> Anthology is on the polemical side, including the rather pissy letter from 
> Snow to Gidal in response to the latter’s comments about Back-Forth. 
> 
> Sort of an answer?
> 
> Dr. Jonathan Walley
> Associate Professor and Chair
> Department of Cinema
> Denison University
> wall...@denison.edu
> 
> 
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 11:00 AM, John Muse <jm...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Can someone briefly explain--or point me to resources that explain--how it 
>> is that in 1976 Peter Gidal can include Annette Michelson's June 1971 
>> Artforum piece "Towards Snow" in his Structural Film Anthology when in the 
>> September 1971 issue of Artforum he excoriates her and this piece in 
>> particular, beginning a letter to the editor, 
>> 
>>> In a remarkably wrongheaded piece, Annette Michelson, in the june Artforum 
>>> asserts, with reference to Michael Snow's film, Wavelength, "Snow has 
>>> redefined filmic space as that of action.
>> 
>> "… remarkably wrongheaded…" is certainly polemical, but there she is in the 
>> anthology.  What happened?  Was her response to him persuasive?   
>> 
>> I'll take my answer off the air.  
>> 
>> j/PrM
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> john muse
>> visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
>> haverford college
>> http://www.finleymuse.com
>> http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
>> http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> 
>> 
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j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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[Frameworks] Annette Michelson and Peter Gidal

[John Muse]

Can someone briefly explain--or point me to resources that explain--how it is 
that in 1976 Peter Gidal can include Annette Michelson's June 1971 Artforum 
piece "Towards Snow" in his Structural Film Anthology when in the September 
1971 issue of Artforum he excoriates her and this piece in particular, 
beginning a letter to the editor, 

> In a remarkably wrongheaded piece, Annette Michelson, in the june Artforum 
> asserts, with reference to Michael Snow's film, Wavelength, "Snow has 
> redefined filmic space as that of action.

"… remarkably wrongheaded…" is certainly polemical, but there she is in the 
anthology.  What happened?  Was her response to him persuasive?   

I'll take my answer off the air.  

j/PrM

*****

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

*



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[Frameworks] structuralist/materialist films by women

[John Muse]

I'm looking for structuralist/materialist films by women, whether made in the 
60's and 70's or later.  Gidal include Wieland in his anthology; Sailboat is 
lovely, comic, and punchy.  And I, against the grain, appreciate Ono's Fluxus 
works from this angle.  I just found Birgit Hein and will recruit Akerman's Le 
Chambre for the purpose.  Leslie Thorton's X-TRACT helps too.  Thank you 
UbuWeb!  What am I missing?  

j/PrM

*

john muse
visiting assistant professor of independent college programs
haverford college
http://www.finleymuse.com
http://www.haverford.edu/faculty/jmuse
http://haverford.academia.edu/JohnMuse

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