Hi, Patti,
At 11:07 PM 12/8/2004, you quoted from Schroder:
If I had to assign chief blame for the ongoing struggle between science and
religion and the resulting erosion of biblical credibility, it would be to
the leaders or organized religion. Since Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) had
the
Brent wrote:
2. Dictionary and Ruhi. Please
indicate who discourages the use of the dictionary in Ruhi courses.
Certain tutors? The books themselves? Given that the Guardian had a
well-worn dictionary, and that he not infrequently used terms in his writings
and translations that I can't
Richard,
You
quoted:
In
fact, most tutors find that using a dictionary to help the participants
understand difficult words actually interferes
with their learning. It
seems far more useful to help them learn how to
infer the meanings
of words through discussion of whole phrases and
Mark,
It is interesting to me to remember that learning to understand the meaning
of a word from context is the manner in which I have learned for years.
Often times the dictionary definition does not help much in the
understanding of the phrase in which the word is found; especially if one is
Hi, Richard,
Often times the dictionary definition does not help much in the
understanding of the phrase in which the word is found; especially
if one is using a dictionary that does not give the specific nuance
the author intends.
Depending on the dictionary. However, don't you think that is
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:44:04 -0600, Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IMO, the spiritual truth which never changes is the Covenant, not any
particular set of doctrines.
But isn't there an underlying constant even if specific formulations
might change? I think John Hick tries to unify the
- Original Message -
From: Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: To Brent: one point
Depending on the dictionary. However, don't you think that is
different from simply recommending against their use in general?
Consider the exact wording of the quotaton: In fact, most tutors find
|Depending on the dictionary. However, don't you think that is
|different from simply recommending against their use in general?
|
|I will stick with my analogy to some of the fundamentalist
|Christian groups I have encountered. IMO, Ruhi comes pretty close
|(in several respects).
|
Please
- Original Message -
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To
Subject: Re: To Brent: one point
Here is the quote:
It is important to note here that achieving this first level of
comprehension never involves a long discussion on the meaning of single
words outside the context of the
First a quote:
Papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy are the two ecclesiastical
versions of this human idolatry. Both papal infallibility and biblical
inerrancy require widespread and unchallenged ignorance to sustain their claims
to power. Both are doomed as viable alternatives for
Surely the 'Ruhi method' does not exclude other study?
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: FW: To Brent: one point
In a message dated 12/9/2004 1:53:44 PM Central Standard Time,
* Participant 4: 1 went to a very stimulating course for training tutors of
Rook I. For the first few hours we played games to get to know each other
and trust each other. Then someone suggested that we empty' ourselves so we
spent an after noon talking about whatever was on our minds. I thought
This tips focuses on the question and answer study process introduced in
Book 1, Unit 1. Tutors should not be rigid about this process, but bear in
mind that it is helpful to have a technique for study - in other words, a
systematic procedure by which a task is accomplished. It should not be
Hi, Ron,
At 06:08 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote:
Mark, your view that texts have no meaning seems extreme. It would also seem
to rule out the possibility of communication, woudln't it? Yet humans do
communicate. Don' t they?
As I see it, we discover meaning *through* (not in) texts. The tools for
In a message dated 12/9/2004 5:33:40 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Surely the
'Ruhi method' does not exclude other study?
It does not. Over and over it says it does not.
However, the RTI's seem to think it does. All statistics concerning growth
are measured by no
Personally, I don't understand the focus on the term Ruhi method. However,
the fact that one of the Ruhi books may contain a statement denying it status
as a method is obviously not evidentiary.
IMO, it comes down to how one defines method, but the use of U.S.
military-style mnemonics would
Mark, you enquired,
Okay, but, in all seriousness, why should anyone care about the supposed
findings of tutors?
My response is: Gosh! I don't know Mark. Perhaps because the information
that an operator has regarding the results, or perceived results, of his
experiment or research activity
Mark, you answered,
No, because a study circle has a broader function than a fireside.
My question then is: how does that distinction make such a difference?
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Hi, Richard,
At 06:50 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote:
My question then is: how does that distinction make such a difference?
Firesides are individual teaching activities. The firesides conducted one
person have no more official status than those conducted by others. OTOH, study
circles *are*
1. Okay, but, in all seriousness, why should anyone care about the supposed
findings of tutors?
Because the feedback process is extremely valuable. It moves a group from
theory into actuality. It is an established part of good planning -- evaluate
how you're doing. My impression of the Ruhi
For example, you all
remember that at the beginning of Book I, a technique is used whereby the
participants ask simple questions of one another. The use of this technique
has a clear purpose, which is to help the participants focus on Bahá'í text,
But once such a habit is created, why would one
I don't disagree with that assessment at all. My latest seeker, a Jehovah's
Witness saw that immediately. She did not however retreat in revulsion.
She understands the need;
Dear Richard,
One of the curriculum designers at the Mag Carney Institute was a Jehovah
Witness, and like your
Brent,
At 06:50 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote:
Because the feedback process is extremely valuable. It moves a group from
theory into actuality. It is an established part of good planning --
evaluate how you're doing.
Sure, but you are giving me a technical response, while I have been objecting
to
My question is: You would then have the same objections to a fireside talk
(rather common on 2 and 3) which has the same characteristics?
Dear Richard,
Well, the Guardian does tell us that we should know the Writings well enough
to give them in their pure form. However, most firesides speakers
For example, Canadian friends report Institute Process in Canada
to have progreesed to present status as follows:
http://www3.telus.net/studycircle/gpb.jpg
Dear Max,
Unfortunately there is some truth to that cartoon. Maybe not in Canada, but
there are places in Australasia where the believers
In fact, most tutors find that using a dictionary to help the participants
understand difficult words actually interferes with their learning. It seems
far more useful to help them learn how to infer the meanings
f words through discussion of whole phrases and paragraphs
I think I had seen
bear in
mind that it is helpful to have a technique for study - in other words, a
systematic procedure by which a task is accomplished. It should not be
referred to as the Ruhi method. (Book 1, Ruhi)
So should we call it the 'systematic proceedure utilized by Ruhi' instead?
'Method' is
Ron wrote:
I brought up two examples of areas where a strictly literal view of the
infallibility of the Writings (in this case the Writings of Abdul Baha) leads
some Baha'is to see the necessity to dis-believe in the science of evolution
and quantum physics. Do you believe in the need to come
Personally, I don't understand the focus on the term Ruhi method.
However, the fact that one of the Ruhi books may contain a statement denying
it status as a method is obviously not evidentiary.
Dear Mark,
Notwithstanding my crack about Baha'i-speak, it sounds from the passage
which Max put up
I would like to see the results of scientifically controlled interviews of
these tutors.
Dear Richard,
Wouldn't it be of even more value to interview the participants, both those
who finish the course, and those who drop out? The tutors are already 'true
believers' or they wouldn't be tutors in
No more hamburgers for you Mark. : - )
Hey, isn't Ruhi the theological equivalent of a Big Mac?
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To
Hi, Susan,
At 08:01 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote:
The entire passage, not individual words, will get us much closer to what was
in the original.
Yes, but I was objecting to a so-called tutor telling a participant *not* to
use a dictionary, not whether using one was always the best way to understand
Susan, you wrote:
Wouldn't it be of even more value to interview the participants, both
those
who finish the course, and those who drop out? The tutors are already
'true
believers' or they wouldn't be tutors in most cases.
My answer is: The tutors would be easier to catch and interview. As
I think the Ruhi method does have some good points:
-It gets people reading the sacred Writings...always a good thing
-It encourages people to memorize passages from the texts.
That's good too.
One of the biggest, most pervasive problems I've seen in the U.S.
community, is the tendency to
My impression of the Ruhi Institute in Colombia which created the Ruhi
materials, is that they excelled at this. I'm not talking about putting much
stock in the random impressions of one person. I'm talking about a methodology
of soliciting feedback and accomplishments on a broad basis. The
My answer is: The tutors would be easier to catch and interview. As
well, I would get information as to how a believer who is teaching other
believers is affected since, as Shoghi Effendi has pointed out, the teacher
is benefited more than the student during the teaching activity (yes, I know
Dear Max,
Unfortunately there is some truth to that cartoon. Maybe not in Canada, but
there are places in Australasia where the believers have been discouraged
from having deepening classes outside the institute process, less they
detract from it.
warmest, Susan
As a Canadian, I cannot
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:19:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As a
Canadian, I cannot say that I have ever experienced the situationdepicted
in the cartoon. The ABM's that I have met have been quite vocal
intheir encouragement to study other materials,
Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The tutors are already 'true believers' or they wouldn't be tutors in most cases.
*
I don't think tutor is "true believer" just because is a "tutor", I think we can't or "must" say when one baha'i is *true* or *not true* believer.
Hasan
"...religious
In studying any course of the Ruhi Institute, participants are expected to
achieve three levels of comprehension. The first is a basic understanding of
the meaning of words and sentences. Thus, for example, after reading the
quotation, The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure
Many years of experience with the courses of the Ruhi Institute have shown that
examining ideas at these three levels of understanding helps collaborators
create the conscious basis of a life of service to the Cause. But what may
surprise someone who is unfamiliar with this experience is that
In general, this course is not complex, and like all Ruhi Institute courses,
it is conducted tutorially. This is best done by dividing the participants
into small groups and allowing each group to move along at its own pace and
according to its own rhythm. This point is extremely important,
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:31:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't think tutor is "true believer" just because is a "tutor", I think
we can't or "must" say when one baha'i is *true* or *not true* believer.
Hasan
Dear Hasan,
We've got a
Small groups of participants, working with the assistance of a tutor, meet
together in an atmosphere of joy, calm and meditative serenity to engage in
close study of the course materials. The tutor's role is that of a
facilitator of learning, and seldom that of a lecturer. The responsibility
for
The Ruhi Institute, following the ideas presented in the previous
paragraphs, asserts that effective participation which will not easily
degenerate into political manipulation requires a systematic learning
process within each community and region so that the community itself
experiments with new
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:40:18 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
We believe
that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the Writings with
the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great share of the
disagreements that afflict
I would like to invite you to join a study circle we have recently
established in our community. There are already twelve people in our group,
and I am sure you will like every one of them. We have a great deal of fun
together. We study twice a week for a couple of hours but also engage in
other
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:35:22 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It is quite
likely that by first developing inbelievers who are in the early stages of
their study of the Faith a capacityto focus attention on the immediate and
explicit meaning of sentences
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:35:17 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thus,
for example, after reading thequotation, The betterment of the world
can be accomplished through pureand goodly deeds, through commendable and
seemly conduct, the student isasked, "How
Your ability to foster and assess understanding will require you to
continually develop such attributes as sensitivity, detachment and
generosity and draw on your powers of perception and intuition. You will
need to listen everyone carefully. Often an individual does not have
sufficient words to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We've got a linguistic-cultural misunderstanding here.
Well, It could be so, but if we said tutors are *true believers*, could arise more problems. Maybe I don't understand what you said, but what I said if the problem to use"true believer". Too much discussions about
If there is one concept that we hope characterizes the approach of the Ruhi
Institute, it is flexibility. However, protecting a system from rigidity is
not an easy task, especially when it becomes widely used in diverse
circumstances around the world. There is a tendency in most of us to
introduce
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:40:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The
experience of the Ruhi Institute has shown that we do not suppress the
imagination or the personality of the participants
How have they determined they aren't doing this?
* Participant 4: 1 went to a very stimulating course for training tutors of
Rook I. For the first few hours we played games to get to know each other
and trust each other. Then someone suggested that we empty' ourselves so we
spent an after noon talking about whatever was on our minds. I thought
The above describes one way in which an institute program for the
development of human resources for the expansion and consolidation of the
Faith may unfold. What is important for you to realize is that the program
will not be the same for every institute that has chosen to use the Ruhi
Institute
Whatever activities a study circle undertakes, it is important that no
feelings of exclusivity ever be allowed to develop among its members. Their
activities should serve to bind the group together in fellowship and at the
same time attract others to their mode of learning. The meetings of the
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:45:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The Ruhi
Institute, following the ideas presented in the previousparagraphs,
asserts that effective participation which will not easilydegenerate into
political manipulation requires a
* Participants in the courses of the Ruhi Institute are expected to achieve
three levels of comprehension of the quotations they study: to understand
the meaning of the words and sentences from the Writings, to see how
concepts in the Writings apply to one's daily life, and to grasp some of the
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:48:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would
like to invite you to join a study circle we have recentlyestablished in
our community. There are already twelve people in our group,and I am sure
you will like every one of them. We
The reflections in the previous section on the dynamics of a study circle,
dynamics which are generated by its purpose to contribute to the spiritual
and moral empowerment of the participants, must have reaffirmed your
conviction that to become an effective tutor, one must learn to nurture
others.
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:08:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Why you
put too messages against Ruhi program?
Huh? Other than that cartoon, Max has been posting nothing but quotations
from Ruhi materials.
The
functions of the tutor are clearand
Huh? Other than that cartoon, Max has been posting nothing but quotations from Ruhi materials.
Sorry Max if so, I don't knowthose materials.
Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:22:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban
areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the
semi-literate as I have suggested?
Yes,
Susan wrote:
Unfortunately there is some truth to that cartoon. Maybe not in Canada, but
there are places in Australasia where the believers have been discouraged
from having deepening classes outside the institute process, less they
detract from it.
So, what happened to the independent search
So, what happened to the independent search for Truth?
Dear Dave,
Mind you, I said they were discouraged from having other deepening *classes*
not from deepening independently.
warmest, Susan
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In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:52:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Too
much discussions about the Ruhi Program in this forum, now the Ruhi Program is
a real and efficient way to grow, it is not perfect (nothing is) but it help
the Faith to grow better than
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