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Sen,
This is a very important subject and I need to ask for clarification.
If what you say below were correct, it would relieve a lot of folks and make
the Faith more likely to be able to attract new believers and declarants.
However, and please correct me if I am
of this, all non- Baha'is would be goberned
at every level by Baha'i Administrative bodies for which they woudl not be
allowed to vote.
Ron
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Ursus Maximus ursusmaxi...@gmail.comwrote:
Sen,
This is a very important subject and I need to ask for clarification
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is an interesting thread, though a few times it has gotten mean, nasty
and insulting, which is a shame. Gilberto, I find your reasoning
reasonable. We should all be able to see that these are theological matters,
and as such are open to interpretation and
, Zoroastrianism,
Hinduism, and the native faiths af all peoples are part of the same, one,
true religion.
Ron
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 7:53 AM, Ursus Maximus ursusmaxi...@gmail.comwrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is an interesting thread, though a few times it has gotten mean, nasty
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan,
Thanks again for the information. Sounds like new enrollees are picking up
in the SE USA and that's great!
In New Delhi, indeed I was probably there when nothing was scheduled.
However I could not help but notice how out of date the flyers on the walls
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Tim,
I hear this all the time at meetings at the LA Baha'i Center, where we have
Sunday noon meetings for seekers every week. Also, when I attended a huge
rally at the LA Convention Center (remember the regional big special
meetings), about a year ago (two years
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan,
Since I moved our west, I haven't been getting my issue of American Baha'i
(need to update my address). Can you tell me how many monthly declarants it
is reporting now. I'm really curious to know. For the last 15 years or so,
it was running around 100 per month.
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David,
You have to look at this metaphorically. If you look at it literally, it
makes no sense. Literally, humans and apes evolved from common ancestors.
The concept of soul is a metaphor. We say humans have a soul. The human
soul is a metaphor for what makes humans so
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In the Aqdas Baha'u'llah states that He hath no partner in the Most Great
Infallibility. He confers a lesser infallibility on the other Central
Figures. They are granted spiritual guidance that will not lead us astray.
Baha'u'llah pointed out in the Iqan that one of
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Oops,
I mean the last paragraph to say In the Iqan not in teh Aqdas so it
should be as follows:
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Ursus Maximus ursusmaxi...@gmail.comwrote:
In the Aqdas Baha'u'llah states that He hath no partner in the Most Great
Infallibility. He
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
A related question or two:
1. Do you think the House of Justice will ever have the alchemical Writings
of Baha'u'llah translated into English and published? Also the same question
concerning the Writings of the Bab?
2. I am thinking that, since the publication of the
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Infallibility does not mean what so many think it means. Of course, the
Guardian did not know when he would die. Of course the House can be
incorrect on details and etc, or else why would the Guardian have had
the option to overrule them? Of course Baha'u'llah did not
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
David,
There is no way to explain this. To a believer in literal inerrancy, nothing
can change their mind, they will always rationalize any amount of contrary
evidence. Thus, you can not have a rational discussion with a Christian or
Islamic fundamentalist. God
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Why?
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The OJBS (online Journal of Bahai Studies) has been shut down, the
papers removed from the site, and also from the Wayback machine
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Gary,
I am glad you refer to Jesus' explicit statements, as recorded in scripture,
that the end times and His return would happen within the current generation
of His listeners. I was certainly thinking of bringing this up as an example
of how literal understandings of
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Susan,
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
My problem is, it seems to me that most Baha'is including famous ones who
speak at Conferences and etc. probably do not find my understanding
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Mark, thanks, your feedback is mot helpful. I think I will start using your
term plenary inerrancy to refer to what I don't believe in as valid
definition of infallibility. I need a shorthand for a complex concept.
In the interest of brevity, I will not quote the bulk o
/Ursus Maximus: you said
if a person were known to have this belief, could they be expelled
as say for instance Sen McGlinn was?
I've never seen anything from the UHJ to indicate that my expulsion
had anything to do with my beliefs. I and my history are not
important, but it is very
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Mark,
This is the first time I've encountered the term plenary inerrancy'. I
would appreciate it if you would expand on this term and its application to
our Faith. It is important to me.
My problem is that it is apparent to me that what I call
literal infallibility or
Susan,
Maybe its like this. In the language of the Baha'i Faith, religious
principles are revealed by a Manifestation. However, from a logical and
scientific point of view, these same principles are humanly constructed. In
reality, nothing revealed by a Manifestation springs forth out of thin
:
On 14 Jan 2008 at 6:21, Ursus Maximus wrote:
For instance, Muhammad and Islam intepreted away the very core of
Christian belief, the crucifiction!
I don't think that Muhammad can be blamed for this: the denial of the
crucifixion arises from a materialist understanding of the Quranic
Swords-a-flashin' et al,
Indeed, Baha'u'llah also interpreted symbolically many thigns in Christian
scripture that were alwasy previously understood literally by all Christian
communitees. I have littel doubt that many of our Baha'i
Writigns interpreted and understood literally by virtually all
Dear Dr. Maneck,
Sounds like very good advice, I am, going to take it.
Ron
On Jan 5, 2008 9:23 PM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But how about
\focusing on what really matters in what I am asking...for instance, why
not
reveal in whatever will ultimately become the Universal
Susan,
Thank you very much. I need to study it more, but already the key points in
the section Women in the Writings of Baha'u'llah are right on point and
appreciated!
Could I ask for a little exploration of the following excerpt?
Perhaps the key issue in this debate revolves around the
Susan,
Thank you for your response. One point I want to clarify.
Dr. Maneck wrote:
What does omnipotence and omniscience have to do with context? In any
case, the Guardian indicated that the Manifestation is omniscient at
will. I think Baha'is have different understandings of what that
Dear Brent,
Thank you very much for this reply. I am meditating upon it and I fidn it
helpful. Thanks sincerely.
ron
On Jan 4, 2008 12:04 PM, Brent Poirier Attorney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Ron, you asked whether Sen's views are problematic since they are
close to your own. I can't approach
Susan wrote:
I don't think it is necessary for the Baha'i Faith to eliminate all
other religions. Does that answer your question?
warmest, Susan
I guess so.
Ron
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Susan wrote:
Dear Ron,
You'll need to be a bit more specific about which of Sen's opinions
you are talking about. My problem with Sen's views largely concerns
the fact that he so often ignores the authoritative interpretations of
the Guardian (especially if they are conveyed by his
Dear Brent,
I am not much interested in monogamy vs polygamy and etc. The portion of
Sen's message that I am very interested in your opinion about is as follows:
First, I don't think that the Writings are the proof of the Bahai
Faith, in the way that the Quran is the proof for Islam, the rapid
Dear Susan,
You wrote:
Dear Ron,
You'll need to be a bit more specific about which of Sen's opinions
you are talking about. My problem with Sen's views largely concerns
the fact that he so often ignores the authoritative interpretations of
the Guardian (especially if they are conveyed by
On a personal note, I am moving to the LA area today! I will sorta be
bi-coastal since I maintain my residence in CT but mostly I will be
a my new apartment in Culver City (between Hollywood and Santa
Monica) where I will be able to walk to my (semi-new) primary place of
employment with a
Brent,
Thank you very much. You have pointed me in some interesting directions and
I appreciate it. I will be studying your response.
Ron
On Jan 1, 2008 10:29 AM, Brent Poirier Attorney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I suggest that we may make assumptions about what Most Holy means.
That is, that
I really need some help understanding and relating to the Kitab-I-Aqdas.
Given that the Kitab-I-Aqdas is our Most Holy Book, I have read the
Kitab-I-Aqdas dozens of times, since I declared ten years ago. I have
studied it for ten years, much more than I have ever studied any book. I
know it
test
On Dec 20, 2007 4:13 PM, maidenhairleaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
this Thing of His ?
yeah, me too
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Criticism of One Common Faith
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:13:22 +
Lord,
I really need some help understanding and relating to the Kitab-I-Aqdas.
Given that the Kitab-I-Aqdas is our Most Holy Book, I have read the
Kitab-I-Aqdas dozens of times, since I declared ten years ago. I have
studied it for ten years, much more than I have ever studied any book. I
know it
Khazeh,
Thank you for your reply. I am studying your words to me.
Ron
On Dec 31, 2007 4:25 PM, khazeh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Ursus Maximus
*Sent:* 31 December 2007 20:54
*To:* Baha'i Studies
*Subject:* Kitab-I-Aqdas
Berni,
I agree with you.
In particular, I find the first two sentences to be just plain wrong, as in
, contrary to the facts. To clim that religion went form beign ignored to
being on the front burner in 7 short years between i200 and 2007 is absurd.
Every thing compelling about religions
Ian, see my responses:
On Nov 19, 2007 6:51 PM, Ian Kluge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Ron,
You write,
But the Baha'i Writings have to be understood. Writings, all by
themselves, have no meaning, its only when understood by human minds
and put into action that they have effect.
That the
Ian,
You are taking my words our of context and deliberately
misrepresenting what I said. it is not possible to have a meaningful
conversation when you do that.
You quoted me and commented :
Wow. I suggest no such thing!
I disagree: look at your own words about having authoritative
Ian,
You write
The only thing that matters is what the Baha'i Writings tell us directly or
by implication, or at least what is compatible with the Writings and does
not contradict them. This is not a matter of personal philosophies.
But the Baha'i Writings have to be understood. Writings, all
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ursus Maximus
Sent: November 7, 2007 3:04 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
What do we know about the ancestry of Baha'u'llah?
1. Have any of the Central Figures or Universal House of Justice ever
commented about this?
2. Did He ever comment?
3. Is there any documentary evidence?
4. Does he have any Jewish ancestry?
5.Is He descendded from the House of David
6. From the
Susan,
Thanks. Is this Zoroastrian geneology available online or elsewhere?
Ron
On 10/29/07, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Ron,
When Baha'u'llah was asked for His ancestry He referred them to the
genealogy which had been drawn up by Mirza Abu'l-Fazl at the request
of some
Susan,
Thanks.
I am curious about one thing you just said, if in Buddhism there is no
soul, what do they see as being reincarnated? I think Buddhists do
believe in some form of reincarnation, even though it may all be
illusory on some basic level?
Ron
On 10/29/07, Susan Maneck [EMAIL
Is it possible to be a Baha'i and still believe in any kind of
reincarnation? I am familiar with the Writings of Abdul Baha on the
subject. Still, even if most folks who believe in reincarnation,
believe in a misinterpretation, is it possible to believe in some form
of it?
The information
I do not understand what is significant about this. Reading the
extract you quote, Albert, it says that indigenous people (which is an
undefined term, where I live this is fought out in the courts for
decades) have rights over their land and resources. However, where I
live (in the USA) indigenous
Albert,
P.S. Both of my parents were descended from Native Americans, as well
as from European ancestors. To those of you living in the USA and not
of Indian descent, can I have your houses now, please?
;-))
Ron
On 9/19/07, Ursus Maximus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do not understand what
the 370 million indigenous peoples of
the world have the satisfaction they are recognized in International Law
as having Rights. It only took 300 years.
Albert, How do you defien indigenous peoples?
Ursus Maximus wrote:
I do not understand what is significant about this. Reading
out a host of other issues.
Regards,
Albert
Ursus Maximus wrote:
Albert, see my replies:
On 9/19/07, Albert Verbrugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
However, where I live (in the USA) indigenous people have no land or
resources. Yup, the European explorers just took it, by devine right
Susan,
You wrote
Keep in mind that the Iqan uses the term Manifestation much more
broadly than we do. In Shi'ite Islam the Imams were considered
Manifestations.
So, are you pointing out that the Universal House of Justice has
*elucidated* away Baha'u'llah's statements about Manifestations in
Susan,
Hmmm that's interesting. I don't know much about Muslim mindsets.
However, I don't think you will find a very high percentage of
Christian scientists who are fundamentalists. Most scientists who are
Christian have fairly liberal beliefs. At least that's my experience.
Ron
On 7/26/07,
Michael,
I genera;ll;y agree with your points.
On 7/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Ron,
Interesting paper. I have a few comments.
The spiritual crisis comes from the tendency for our scientific
understandings, which are divorced from any religious teachings, to
Don,
What country was this for, or what geopgraphiocal area, and where do
the figures come from, if you know? I am alwasy interested in
statistics.
Ron
On 7/15/07, Don Calkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 11:21 PM -0400 7/14/07, Ursus Maximus wrote:
This could be one reason why, I fear, our
Susan,
Please see my comments below interpseresed with yours with *** in
front of them. I appreciate your replies.
On 7/15/07, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/14/07, Ursus Maximus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do the written statements of the UHOJ constitute a growing body of
precedent
Susan,
Thanks again for having this discussion with me.
On 7/15/07, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So, Peer is clearly saying that those who mention that the word
translated as infallible means sinlessness, are And this is a very
interesting way to try and erode the authority of the
Susan, please see my brief comments below:
On 7/15/07, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no concept of precedents in Baha'i jurisprudence because the
House is always free to change laws as they see fit.
***I guess its not laws I am interested in, but interpretations.***
Dear
Susan, Please see my reply:
You wrote:
No, he was publicly criticizing the Marshalls and their supporters.
As for the House commenting on that statement, if you want their
comment on this talk, ask for it.
Susan, I am not credible. A question by me to the universal House of
Justice would have
Do the written statements of the UHOJ constitute a growing body of
precedent, and since we believe them to be infallible, does that
growing body of precedent progressively lock them in to a rigid stance
on all subjects? Are future UHOJ always bound by the precedents
established by all the
Now that Gilberto has been banned, I just want to say one thing.
I believe Gilberrto was completely correct about the capability of a
future Baha'i state to practice warfare. His example of the abrogation
of the right of Baha'i individuals to freely publish without prior
censorship, as was
Susan,
Were you able to find or contact Terry Culhane? His book is one of my favorites.
Ron Stephens
On 6/3/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If anyone has access to Terry Culhane's current email address, couldthey send it to me? I'm in Nebraska right now and would like to
Podcasts are time shifted audio files subscribed to by rss links and
listened to on ipods, mp3 players, computers aor anywhere an mp3 file
can be played. Podcastign is just beginning to grow in popularity.
You can find a list of Podcast series about the Baha'i Faith here:
Hello Susan and Hasan,
Dr. Maneck, while I often read a response like yours on the net, it is not completely correct, and because of this, itis misleading. There are *many* fossils already discovered that belonged to primate species that preceded the split between the current living human
Dr. Maneck quoted me and then remarked:
Divine Providence will not allow our community, with its present
conception of infallibility, to grow further in numbers and//or
influence,until we correct this problem, I believe.
Is that prophecy infallible? ;-}
Dear Dr. Susan Maneck,
Of all people,
Dr. Maneck,
You wrote:
What I find belligerent is your false categorization of the views of
most believer
Dear Susan,
I said, in my original response to this thread:
A very common Baha'i attitude is that if one of the Central Figures
wrote something that comes into conflict with scientific
Dean Betts wrote:
I think Tim Nolan has given a very cogent interpretation of the Master's
words on these two subjects.
I agree with you, Dean. Tim grasps that these passages are symbolic of
spiritual realities, not physical realities.
Ron Stephens
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Dear Firestorm,
You asked me to
show me the cite.
Firestorm, I can prove many contradictory things by citing a few
words or a few paragraphs from our Writings; just as Christian
believers in Biblical literalism can prove many contradictory things
by citing a few words or a few paragraphs from
Firestorm
Huh?
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David Friedman wrote:
Why is it that we Baha'is say other religionists beliefs are wrong
because they conflict with science, yet if proof for some view of ours
isn't forthcoming we're allowed to say that we expect science in
future to support our beliefs?
Sadly, David, as some of the
Does this mean that in the future, rank and file Baha'is will have no
vote? As I read this, the election of Spiritual Assemblies, and the
subsequent election of National Assemblies and the Universal House of
Justice, will all be held with either appointed leaders or previously
elected leaders, as
Dr. Maneck,
Thank you for this info about Abbas Amanat. Is he still a Baha'i?
It seems like an awful lot of energy goes towards fighting books.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to let people read and publish freely? It
seems that by treating Baha'is as incapable of reading opposing
viewpoints and
Hello Dr. Maneck,
Did you give your talk to a the ABS meeting, or is it still in the
future? I am still hoping to get an audio recording of the talk.
Ron
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immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ursus Maximus
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:02 PM
To: Baha'i
Oops, the quote form St. Paul is from Hebrews 11:1 (not 13:1 as I
typed in the original email above).
Ron
On 8/8/05, Ursus Maximus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Susan,
It was a very good talk, and I think a lot of people will find it
interesting. The part I found most intriguing
Hello Susan,
Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
you
by later verses (obviously I don't really think so). But Abrogation
worries me. Can someone help me by convincing me that Abrogation is
bogus?
Ron
On 8/7/05, Ursus Maximus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Susan,
Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
sounds
Thank you Khazeh for a beautiful meditation!
Ron Stephens
On 8/1/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2Ki 5:1 Naaman, the commander of the Syrian army, was highly respected and
esteemed by the king of Syria, because through Naaman the LORD had given
victory
Hello Dr. Maneck,
Previous dialogue snippets:
Sandra Chamberlain: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come...
Dr. Susan Maneck: Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally
adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly
did away with that, He simply
refused to uphold a
Hello Sandra and Dr. Maneck,
Concerning Public Humiliation for Adulterers, as prescribed by the Aqdas:
from a previous dialogue:
GS: I think I'd heard there was a geometrically increasing
fine for
adultery but I don't think I'd heard of the public humiliation
of
adulterers.
SM: I'm not sure
Thank you Popeye,
Very much.
Ron
On 7/31/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 7/31/2005 2:12:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is an
important one. But I do not
Gilberto (and all),
Thank you for participating in this discussion. My experience is that
Baha'is are most respectful of the Q'uran and Islam, and Khazeh in
particular is so.
As for the Bible, I am most familiar with that book, and I confess
that the old testament is replete with racist, sexist,
Gilberto, you make some good and interesting points.
A key one is made here (and in many other places in otehr words:
Gilberto said:
Yes, well I agree that there are definitely some passages like that in
the Old Testament but I honestly can't justify them enough to think
that any God would
I have decided to read the Arberry translation.
This will be long term effort, not a quick one (as is my normal habit,
that is, to read quickly).
One question I want to ask of this group.
What order were the Quranic chapters revealed? Do we know? Can I find
a listing of the order in which they
Hello Baha'i Studies List Members,
I don't know if you are familiar with podcasting, but it is becoming
popular. I have been doing a podcast series on philosophy and the
future of our global society and culture, especially in the light of
rapidly advancing science and technology. Given the
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