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On 23 Dec 2010 at 1:21, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
So I would want to see a
clearer statement on how Shia define the limits of the ummah.
My answer was based on family law in Iran, because I wrote a booklet
on the topic. If you look at the theoreticians of the
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Khazeh,
At least on my side, I think your posts tend to have a unifying spirit
(or at least a clarifying one) which often allow conversations to end
on a positive note without needing a response.
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com
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Dr. Mohammed Alam Qurayshi runs an anti-Baha'i website.
Why would you post his material here?
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On 21 Dec 2010 at 22:29, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
look to some of the most respected voices speak about the other side,
they still
claimants do go on to found independent
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the
framework of an existing religion.
I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani
: Wed, December 22, 2010 12:26:09 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested any
people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the term it
sounds like spin
. Some claimants do go on to found independent
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the
framework of an existing religion.
I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani
independent
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the
framework of an existing religion.
I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a
special noteworthy mention
...@gmail.com
*To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
*Sent:* Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
*Subject:* Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the
manifestations before them? e.g. Christ
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On Behalf Of Naison Jones
Sent: 23 December 2010 04:17
How can you be the return of Jesus without possessing Jesus qualities?
Obviously by return is not meant Jesus actually came back into the world. So by
return is meant Jesus powers his attributes his station his
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On 23/12/2010 11:42 AM, Khazeh wrote:
No one seems to read my postings. I posted so many beautiful things
including all the Moojan Momen essays on Islam and the Bahai Faith…not
one response.
A Persian poet says that often when we make a point it is exactly as
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According to some Sunni scholars (whom I wouldn't necessarily
endorse myself but I still have acknowledge that their opinions are
out there) considerations of kuf still apply when both prospective
mates are clearly Muslim. The marriages are valid with the permission
of
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Is it possible some of These hadiths were made by muslims who just never
wanted to see Islam succeeded by a new religion?
Dear Naison,
I think Islam had to come up with something like this in order to
survive. I've read some academic articles (which alas I cannot
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Living in the South I can tell you there are far too many Christians
that don't consider Catholics Christian but I wouldn't make the
generalization about Christianity that you made about Islam, Firouz.
Most Sunnis I talk to consider the difference between Shi'ites and
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I think you make a valid point, Gilberto.
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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I guess what I would suggest is that if the reality underneath the
names is really the same, then the names
after his death.
From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 6:15:58 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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What I find interesting about this movement
AM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com wrote:
Baha'u'llahs explanation is more reasonable than the Islamic one cos the
Islamic one is implying that no manifestations will come again. How then can
religion
From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 1:02:47 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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None of the ahadith that you quote are categorical. If you read them carefully,
most (or all) of them
:12:24 PM
Subject: Joseph Emmanuel
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http://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya claims to be the Maitreya Buddha, as
well as a major prophet of God who purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old
Testament, New Testament, Koran, Baha'i
: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:07:13 AM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com
wrote:
Baha'u'llahs explanation
to people attending Asia
Raëlian Church seminars, that someone born in France, a country which is often
symbolized by the cock (or rooster), west of the Orient, meets the criteria of
the Maitreya. Rael himself claims to be this individual.[17]
* Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
could ever accept
, December 21, 2010 3:31:51 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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Yes, that is part of what I was alluding to. Even though Islam teaches
that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet and messenger, Islam allows
for more Manifestations even in the present day while the Bahai
faith does
it will begin.
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 3:31:51 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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Yes, that is part of what I was alluding to. Even
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Dear Susan,
I think there is a big difference between the average Muslims in USA and
in the Middle East/Indian sub-continent in their views about their own
religions and other sects of Islam. I am not a historian so I do not
exactly know the origin of division
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sunnis and Shias obviously disagree with one another on specific
points. And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
look to some of the most respected voices speak about the other
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Dear Gilberto,
You're correct and I agree with you about the differences in beliefs of
Sunnis and Shias. And I am sure most educated Muslims do agree with you
as well.
Unfortunately in most middle eastern countries and Indian sub-continent,
it is totally
:* Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM
*Subject:* Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after
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I guess what I would suggest is that if the reality underneath the
names is really the same, then the names don't matter at all.
(including the name Bahaullah). The only thing that matters is getting
access to that reality. And so if we are really talking about the
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Firouz Anaraki
fir...@thai-bahais.org
Wrote to our dear and respected and much loved brother Gilberto Simpson
Hi Gilberto,
Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still
believe in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal
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On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
Muhammad,
And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you
can see
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On 19 Dec 2010 at 18:04, Firouz wrote:
What do you call a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah as Manifestation
of God?
Friend.
Sen
--
--
Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
All is
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On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
You also said dearest Gilberto
**I'm going to give more weight to what scholars from Darul-uloom or from
Al-Azhar**
I beg of you on my knees: do not give weight to scholars qua scholars. Give
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On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
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Again Firouz said
And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell
Whereupon Gilberto replied:
That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the current
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A seeker must put aside all love and hate. Love because what he loves can
blind him to finding the beloved in another form because he is too attached
to the old form.
if I love the symbol of the cross and am so in love with Jesus dying on the
cross and his self-less
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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This is the hadith that you quoted:
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Iskandar,
The point which I don't think you are seeing is that all the prophets
would have had special things about them which distinguish them from
one another. Adam was the first prophet. Moses is said to have spoken
to God directly. Joseph was said to be exceedingly
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
he qutoes Juan Cole
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That's interesting. There are actually many different Sufi teaching
stories of grammarians who get stuck in similar predicaments. I wonder
if that's the original source.
In any case, what do you think is the point of the story?
It is interesting that you are focusing
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It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences.
But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says
Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked
and then when you do actually analyze those six
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On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences.
But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says
Muhammad
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On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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It's one thing to say that Prophets
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On 19/12/2010 3:13 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new
Divine Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and
awliyAA, and reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the
Founder
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A couple of things:
The Bahai Faith also divides humanity into believers and non-believers.
I'm not going to speak for Shias but certainly know of Sunnis who
accept Shias as Muslims. You have no right to generalize about over a
billion people like that.
-There is not
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Hi Gilberto,
Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still
believe in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal rights and
opportunities. And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell or should be
taxed or punished differently from
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote:
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Hi Gilberto,
Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still believe
in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal rights and
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com wrote:
Baha'u'llahs explanation is more reasonable than the Islamic one cos the
Islamic one is implying that no manifestations will come again. How then can
religion be renewed anymore?
A
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration)
And every Manifestation is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
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On 17/12/2010 1:21 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
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All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration)
So why Muslim bother to build masjids? Specially the one near World
Trade Center in NYC?
Best regards,
Firouz
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As for the first question, even though one can pray pretty much
everywhere it can be nice to have a dedicated space. As for the
second, that obviously opens up a whole can of withworms, with a whole
lot of points on both sides. A few that I would point out are:
When
Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 10:30:53 AM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration)
And every Manifestation is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last
, December 17, 2010 10:30:53 AM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration)
And every Manifestation is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
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You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies
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None of the ahadith that you quote are categorical. If you read them
carefully, most (or all) of them are dubious at best. Do you really and
sincerely believe that the Prophet Muhammad ever implied that He was somehow
better than other Prophets, that His speech was more
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the
Manifestation in the Bahai Faith:
Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal
of the prophets) implies that
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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None of the ahadith that you quote are categorical. If you read them
carefully, most (or all) of them are dubious at best.
Perhaps according to you, but
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With regard to the Seal of the Prophets
Did Baha'u'llah refer to Himself as a nabi or a rasul?
If he did not, then this whole question is moot.
Tim
I agree. By my understanding, the stations of prophethood, nabi and
rasu'l, have
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Give me a break, Gilberto. Just give me a break.
You were quotiing hadith in which Muhammad said that God gave gave him
things such as a pithy speech, etc. that He did not give other Prophets. You
belive that nonsense?
Yes, 17:95 does prove my point.
What about the
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That's one of the arguments that some Muslims make.
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Don Calkins montana...@great-falls.net wrote:
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With regard to the Seal of the Prophets
Did Baha'u'llah refer to Himself
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Give me a break, Gilberto. Just give me a break.
You were quotiing hadith in which Muhammad said that God gave gave him
things such as a pithy speech,
Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the
Manifestation in the Bahai Faith
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
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Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the
Manifestation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is the hadith that you quoted:
* The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six
favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:
I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I
was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of
.
Tim
All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
--Roger Ebert
- Original Message
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies
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On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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This is the hadith that you quoted:
* The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: God has bestowed upon me six
favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:
I
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A common question - response statement used in religious discourse
includes a defense of/or champion of ones own belief system.
Might I suggest that the Baha'i approach is not to suggest any
conclusion about the belief system of another, rather to find a way to
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The titles of the prophets from God have always caused confusion up to this
point for the petty minded. Think about it.
Jesus is God, Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is the Son of Man. That is a
true test for Christians because it gives them the notion that Jesus is
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http://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya claims to be the Maitreya Buddha, as
well as a major prophet of God who purportedly fulfills prophecies from the
Old
Testament, New Testament, Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern scriptures.[18
Studies Listserv
http://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims
to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern
the same arguments to us some day.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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http://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims
to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet
://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims
to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern
scriptures.[18]http
act
as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older
religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.comwrote:
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http://www.maitreya.org/
Joseph Emmanuel
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Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken
literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older
religions have done, whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a
kind of exceptionalism;
Dear Matt,
It is not an issue of
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And from a Muslim perspective, the textual support for the finality of
Muhammad's messengership and prophethood is in an analagous way clear,
strong, varied, persuasive and compelling. At times, when Bahais talk
about it, it is framed as a character defect.
Everybody
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But saying someone is last prophet different. It is like saying I am the
alpha and the Omega. Do you interpret that as meaning he is literally the
first and last prophet?
Wheras his statement is an explicit time period before the coming of the
next manifestation and
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Show me a Text in the Good Book wherein it says that you have to take the
Seal of the Prophets verse as meaning *literally* the very last Person
sent by God.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies
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And from a Muslim perspective, the textual support for the finality of
Muhammad's messengership and prophethood is in an analagous way clear,
strong, varied, persuasive and compelling
Half a phrase from a text which repeatedly condemn those who say God
will not send
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On 12/16/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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And from a Muslim perspective, the textual support for the finality of
Muhammad's messengership and prophethood is in an analagous way clear,
strong, varied, persuasive and compelling
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* The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: I am the last in line of the
prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid (referring the holy
Masjid of the Prophet).
So there are no more Masjids? ;-}
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All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration)
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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* The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: I am the last in line of the
prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid
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Also, the point is that *collectively* the meaning is clear. EVEN IF
khatm in the Quran doesn't mean last and EVEN IF you nitpick at
one example which uses some poetic license, you still have over a
dozen texts which say last with different wording. At this point, I
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But if Baha'u'llah is the supreme manifestation and we are entering a new
cycle then why isnt it reasonable to say last of those kinds of Israili
prophets. Maybe the new ones will be not related to that family either (not
that that is probably that important).
Also
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