In my opinion the Dawnbreakers falls into the category
of "matters strictly related to the Cause".
Here is something from the Universal House of Justice 1977-08-22
"He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as
economics and science, nor does he go into
Bud Dean, here he is not interpreting the word of God, but the word of
Nabil. Not that he doesn't have additional insight, mind you, but I
think the thrust of it is the fact that Nabil isn't scripture, so his
translation/interpretation/interpolation may not partake in his
infallibility.
David wrote: It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by
name!
However, David, in -God Passes By-, Shoghi Effendi indicates
that the Bab DID address each of them *by name - the names
bestowed on them by Baha'u'llah in Badasht. This is not to
say all 18 were present; as the Guardian doesn't
subsequently addressed by
the Báb in the Tablets He revealed for each one of them.
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 32)
So shouldn't it be easy to find out who the Letters of the Living are?
I think it would help greatly if someone would translate the Tablets to the
Letters
Dear Dean,
I think it would help greatly if someone
would translate the Tablets to the
Letters.
If by help you mean help
to identify the identity of the Letters, no they won't. Both
Moojan and myself commented on this a while back on this list. None
of the Tablets contain anything that you
Didn't our beloved Guardian approve
the publication of the Dawn Breakers?
I thought I read a long time ago somewhere that the Dawnbeakers was
more or
less a work of Shoghi Effendi using Nabil's notes. True, not true?
Strictly speaking, this is not true. Shoghi
Effendi edited Nabil's
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, David Friedman wrote:
about their tablets? It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by name!
David
Security reasons, dear David, security reasons. Babis could very easily be
killed when/if identified by name. Also, perhaps the Bab addressed more
than one
I emphasize again that the virtue that the
Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by Shoghi Effendi does not by itself
confer upon it any special significance.
I have to disagree with this.
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of his
lineal descendents."
-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
11
Thank you,
Dean
- Original Message -
From:
Ahang Rabbani
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:34
PM
Subject: Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Dean,
I wrote
He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him
will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents."
Dear Dean and Ahang,
The Dawnbreakers is *not* the Word of God however.
And you have to balance this statement with Guardian's own assertion that he is
not infallible in matters
Dear Susan,
You've caught me on a slow day, so let
me respond to your posting.
There is a reason that the Guardian
chose to translate
this particular work. However, I think
those reasons
were more theological than because
it was more
historically accurate.
If there were some theological
Ahang wrote:
I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt
'ethically bound' by those standards
of scholarship which binds us academics.
Susan Maneck wrote:
Academics has nothing to do with it.
Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's
mouth.
Would
Dear Susan,
And you have to balance this statement with
Guardian's own assertion that he is not infallible in matters of history,
etc.
What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his
infallibility?
I thought heclaimed to be infallible only in matters
related to the Faith.
To me, this
involved. Abdu'l-Baha seems mostly concerned to vindicate the Babi-Bahai Faiths in relationship to the government. But Nabil goes out of his way to make the Bab appear as Christlike as possible. The Farewell Sermon to the Letters of the Living is virtually identical to the one Jesus gave when He sent out
In a message dated 4/5/2004 9:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility?
I thought he claimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith.
To me, this would include the Faith's history.
He claimed to be
-Original Message-From:
Dean Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date:
06 April 2004 02:15Subject: Re: Letters of the
LivingWhat were the Guardian's exact words regarding
his infallibility?I thought heclaimed to be infallible
only in matters related to the
Dear Susan,
You have access to the original Nabil's
narrative?
You really have not been following Tarikh,
have you?
And where are these copies of Nabil's
text you are working with?
In a safe place ;-}
and through proxies,
such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my
Nayriz
Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the
sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and
which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he
is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science,
In a message dated 4/5/2004 11:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be
infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the
revealed word.
Dear Dean,
Perhaps, but I'm not sure how
In a message dated 4/5/2004 10:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the revealed word. He would be able to tell us that the Writings
Scott,
At 11:40 PM 4/5/2004, you wrote:
I would think also he is infallible when he discusses a part of the Writings that
allude to a scientific process: i.e. his explanation of the copper to gold
transmutation NOT just being a spiritual metaphor but a description of a
scientifically
Dear Ahang,
I am under the impression that Nabil is to be given special
consideration as a source.
All the best,
Dean.
- Original Message -
From:
Ahang Rabbani
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 3:29
AM
Subject: Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Dean, You
In a message dated 4/4/2004 2:43:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I am under the impression that Nabil is to be given special consideration as a source
Dear Dean,
Not so much as a 'source' but as a sacred narrative. At least that is the way I look at it.
warmest,
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of Siyyid
Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of the Living penned
by the Bab.
Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are?
__
You
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of
Siyyid Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of
the Living penned by the Bab.
Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are?
There's eighteen, right? I have them reproduced
Correction, God Passes By page 347 says that there exists original tablets penned by
the Bab to the Letters of the Living. They were NOT penned in the handwriting of the
Bab's amanuensis as I incorrectly transcribed.
Still, does anyone know how many of these tablets
In God Passes By on page 347 it says there exists in the handwriting of
Siyyid Husayn, the Bab's amanuensis, the original Tablets to the Letters of
the Living penned by the Bab.
Does anyone know how many of these tablets there are?
There are twenty (20).
They are reproduced in color
to Baha'i
Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent by:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:Baha'i
Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject:
Re: Letters of the Living
David writes: Just wondering
if we have any references
from people like 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi referring to
specific people as Letters
Dear Ahang (and David)...
Thank you for the clarification Ahang! Particularly, because
in God Passes By - not a translation... ;- ) - the Guardian
mentions several individuals who, in context, could to be
understood as among the Letters of the Living - on pages
10-24.
I can't help wondering
Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by
Nabil?
- Original Message -
From:
Ahang Rabbani
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:04
PM
Subject: Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Sandra, David was asking for references by Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha
This whole issue reminds me of the twelve apostles of Jesus. Lists vary.
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Dear Dean,
You wrote:
Why do you say this is merely a suggestion
by Nabil?
I think you were on Tarikh when we had
a thorough discussion of this, and hopefully you kept up with the arguments
and don't want me to reinvent the wheel now.
Nabil was in no position to know *exactly*
who the
Dear Sandra,
Ahang, can you offer an opinion on
how identification of the
Eighteen might be resolved eventually?
In my view, I don't think it can be solved.
I think we can be certain of some and will never know for sure about
others. For instance, any list of Letters of the Living will have
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