Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-08 Thread Thierry Dumont 




Le 08/10/2023 à 18:24, Emmanuel Charpentier a écrit :
BTW :the changes and  advances made in Sage since the last edition of 
this book may warrant a revision, possibly a new edition. If only for 
the installation procedures (Conda installation, WSL on Windows, Github 
replacing Trac, etc...) and the interfaces (Jupyter replacing the Sage 
notebook, emacs as an alternative to command line, etc...).


Yes, for sure... It would be great. We just need manpower, time, and so 
on :-)



Le mercredi 4 octobre 2023 à 23:43:38 UTC+2, Nils Bruin a écrit :

On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 10:41:36 UTC-7 Thierry Dumont wrote:

In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some
backslash...


Indeed, I found on page 43 the example:

sage: 123 + \
: 345
468

which does not work presently. The first mention of "\" as an
operator is on page 162, where it's given as a shorthand for
solve_right in a table (with "/" as a shorthand of solve_left)
It also occurs on p168 (sect. 8.2.2) [twice] , p281, p283 (with
explanation), p302 (in a summary table). Even in the sections where
it is used, `\` is used much more often as a line continuation .

As far as the book is concerned, I think certainly fixing "\" to
work as line continuation is definitely more important for its
correctness, since that's used in much more places in the book (and
also in all the chapters where `\` is used as an operator). In all
the places except the summary table on p302, I saw the alternative
solve_right spelling explicitly mentioned. So impact of deprecating
the notation is rather limited. You could just add it to an
errata/updates list.

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-08 Thread Emmanuel Charpentier 
BTW :the changes and  advances made in Sage since the last edition of this 
book may warrant a revision, possibly a new edition. If only for the 
installation procedures (Conda installation, WSL on Windows, Github 
replacing Trac, etc...) and the interfaces (Jupyter replacing the Sage 
notebook, emacs as an alternative to command line, etc...).

Le mercredi 4 octobre 2023 à 23:43:38 UTC+2, Nils Bruin a écrit :

On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 10:41:36 UTC-7 Thierry Dumont wrote:

In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some backslash... 


Indeed, I found on page 43 the example:

sage: 123 + \
: 345
468

which does not work presently. The first mention of "\" as an operator is 
on page 162, where it's given as a shorthand for solve_right in a table 
(with "/" as a shorthand of solve_left)
It also occurs on p168 (sect. 8.2.2) [twice] , p281, p283 (with 
explanation), p302 (in a summary table). Even in the sections where it is 
used, `\` is used much more often as a line continuation .

As far as the book is concerned, I think certainly fixing "\" to work as 
line continuation is definitely more important for its correctness, since 
that's used in much more places in the book (and also in all the chapters 
where `\` is used as an operator). In all the places except the summary 
table on p302, I saw the alternative solve_right spelling explicitly 
mentioned. So impact of deprecating the notation is rather limited. You 
could just add it to an errata/updates list.
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-04 Thread Nils Bruin 
On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 10:41:36 UTC-7 Thierry Dumont wrote:

In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some backslash... 


Indeed, I found on page 43 the example:

sage: 123 + \
: 345
468

which does not work presently. The first mention of "\" as an operator is 
on page 162, where it's given as a shorthand for solve_right in a table 
(with "/" as a shorthand of solve_left)
It also occurs on p168 (sect. 8.2.2) [twice] , p281, p283 (with 
explanation), p302 (in a summary table). Even in the sections where it is 
used, `\` is used much more often as a line continuation .

As far as the book is concerned, I think certainly fixing "\" to work as 
line continuation is definitely more important for its correctness, since 
that's used in much more places in the book (and also in all the chapters 
where `\` is used as an operator). In all the places except the summary 
table on p302, I saw the alternative solve_right spelling explicitly 
mentioned. So impact of deprecating the notation is rather limited. You 
could just add it to an errata/updates list.
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-04 Thread John H Palmieri 
Right. According to the Sage Developer's Guide, "Deprecated code can only 
be removed one year after the first stable release in which it appeared," 
so it will work for at least a year, and then someone would have to take 
further action to remove it completely.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 12:26:01 PM UTC-7 John Cremona wrote:

> I assume that deprecation means that for a year or so people can still use 
> the backslash but will see a deprecation warning. This could last for quite 
> a long time, so existing code would not immediately break.
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, 18:41 Thierry Dumont,  
> wrote:
>
>> In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some backslash...
>>
>> So, if we deprecate it, we will have problems with the doctests 
>> asociated,... and with the book.
>>
>> I don't like the backslash for solving linear systems, but even Julia 
>> has adopted it, probably for Matlab users...
>>
>> t.d.
>>
>> Le 01/10/2023 à 05:17, Nils Bruin a écrit :
>> > Deprecate please.
>> > 
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>>  
>> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/699f7d70-4222-4f64-8ce4-e606478377a9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer
>> >.
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>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-04 Thread John Cremona 
I assume that deprecation means that for a year or so people can still use
the backslash but will see a deprecation warning. This could last for quite
a long time, so existing code would not immediately break.

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, 18:41 Thierry Dumont, 
wrote:

> In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some backslash...
>
> So, if we deprecate it, we will have problems with the doctests
> asociated,... and with the book.
>
> I don't like the backslash for solving linear systems, but even Julia
> has adopted it, probably for Matlab users...
>
> t.d.
>
> Le 01/10/2023 à 05:17, Nils Bruin a écrit :
> > Deprecate please.
> >
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/699f7d70-4222-4f64-8ce4-e606478377a9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer
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> .
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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-04 Thread Thierry Dumont 

In "Computational Mathematics with SageMath" we have some backslash...

So, if we deprecate it, we will have problems with the doctests 
asociated,... and with the book.


I don't like the backslash for solving linear systems, but even Julia 
has adopted it, probably for Matlab users...


t.d.

Le 01/10/2023 à 05:17, Nils Bruin a écrit :

Deprecate please.

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-10-01 Thread John Cremona 
Deprecate

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, 04:17 Nils Bruin,  wrote:

> Deprecate please.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-09-30 Thread Nils Bruin 
Deprecate please.

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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-09-30 Thread William Stein 
Again, as the person who added it to Sage in the first place:  deprecate.

William

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 4:02 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> deprecate!
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:47 PM John H Palmieri  
> wrote:
> >
> > I asked this already but with a different subject heading, so people may 
> > have missed it.
> >
> > BackslashOperator is defined in "sage/misc/misc.py", and the preparser 
> > converts "A \ b" to the appropriate Python code. The docstring for 
> > BackslashOperator says "Implements Matlab-style backslash operator for 
> > solving systems A \ b".
> >
> > This is not used much: for matrices, matroids, and a tiny bit (at least in 
> > the Sage library) for binary trees. Should we deprecate it?
> >
> > Arguments for deprecation: the less we rely on the preparser, the better 
> > (at least as far as easing a transition between Python and Sage, for 
> > instance). The backslash operator is not in wide use in Sage. Currently its 
> > implementation breaks the standard Python use of "\" as a line-continuation 
> > marker.
> >
> > Arguments against deprecation: it provides a convenient shorthand, and 
> > people may be familiar with it from Matlab or other systems.
> >
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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-09-30 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
deprecate!

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:47 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
> I asked this already but with a different subject heading, so people may have 
> missed it.
>
> BackslashOperator is defined in "sage/misc/misc.py", and the preparser 
> converts "A \ b" to the appropriate Python code. The docstring for 
> BackslashOperator says "Implements Matlab-style backslash operator for 
> solving systems A \ b".
>
> This is not used much: for matrices, matroids, and a tiny bit (at least in 
> the Sage library) for binary trees. Should we deprecate it?
>
> Arguments for deprecation: the less we rely on the preparser, the better (at 
> least as far as easing a transition between Python and Sage, for instance). 
> The backslash operator is not in wide use in Sage. Currently its 
> implementation breaks the standard Python use of "\" as a line-continuation 
> marker.
>
> Arguments against deprecation: it provides a convenient shorthand, and people 
> may be familiar with it from Matlab or other systems.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-09-30 Thread Michael Orlitzky 
On Sat, 2023-09-30 at 14:47 -0700, John H Palmieri wrote:
> 
> This is not used much: for matrices, matroids, and a tiny bit (at least in 
> the Sage library) for binary trees. Should we deprecate it?

Deprecate it, it's a big WTF for most people.

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[sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

2023-09-30 Thread John H Palmieri 
I asked this already but with a different subject heading, so people may 
have missed it. 

BackslashOperator is defined in "sage/misc/misc.py", and the preparser 
converts "A \ b" to the appropriate Python code. The docstring for 
BackslashOperator says "Implements Matlab-style backslash operator for 
solving systems A \ b". 

This is not used much: for matrices, matroids, and a tiny bit (at least in 
the Sage library) for binary trees. Should we deprecate it?

Arguments for deprecation: the less we rely on the preparser, the better 
(at least as far as easing a transition between Python and Sage, for 
instance). The backslash operator is not in wide use in Sage. Currently its 
implementation breaks the standard Python use of "\" as a line-continuation 
marker.

Arguments against deprecation: it provides a convenient shorthand, and 
people may be familiar with it from Matlab or other systems.

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