You are all nazi's and I am hitler.
Next...
At 06:03 PM 8/17/00 GMT, you wrote:
>Alright, let me try to clarify what I mean. Currently with the rise of
>popularity in electronic music more and more artists are just situated on a
>rising curve of how popular or known they are. If they are low on the curve
>it doesn't nesacarily make them underoground. I've seen some artists who do
>one time events...like Buhdist sand art....and never repeat them or record
>them. They are lost in time, except for your memory of it. That, I believe,
>is underground. I'm not saying it's better than what anybody else is doing.
>Now for some of these points (if we are to be all on the same page):
>
>>a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens
>
>Not all so-called "underground" artists operate in strict secrecy. UR sort
>of does (with their personas) but they still dessimenate info to "get the
>word out"
>
>>a usually avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the
>>establishment
>
>Selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. Remember the
>establishment can be the so-called underground dance movement.
>
>>Anyways, read the definitions before you start calling someone a
>>"sell-out" or what have you.
>
>I don't know if this was directed to my posting but I don't think I called
>anyone a sell-out. You can't really be a sell-out unless you go against your
>own morals and rules that you set down for yourself.
>
>>If you like or dislike the music, that's where you should stand, not
>>telling them they can't promote themselves on this list.
>
>Promote away, I think it's great if people become rich and famous for
>sticking to their guns and believing in what they can do, but_only_if they
>want to become rich and famous through their work.
>
>>Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their right.
>
>It doesn't matter what anybody but the artist thinks. I don't know what any
>particular artist's intention is unless they tell me. So how can I or anyone
>else judge an artist unless they make public their intentions?
>
>>>But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels,
>>>to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things.
>
>Again, selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. How
>can exchanging money for product be regarded as underground? They may be way
>out at the edge of things but they are still working within the established
>way of doing business. And believe me, selling records, owning a record
>label and being an artist who sells records and signs contracts is a
>business.
>
>>>there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit
>>>Grand Pubahs?),because to really play in that larger mass arena you have
>>>to tap into a whole new structure for distribution.
>
>It's not really a new structure it's just more complicated and has more
>legal bullshit. It may seem new because it's bigger and there are more
>people who want a piece of the cake.
>
>Really, I think to use the term "underground" is just trying to romanticize
>the image of lesser known artists. I'm not slighting the efforts of artists
>by saying whether they are or are not "underground" because I know it's hard
>work no matter to what degree to which they are recognized by the public.
>
>>>What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional
>>>manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems.
>
>I don't know what is exciting to you because you didn't mention any examples
>but if you record a tune, press it, distribute it even to a small specialty
>shop and put some time and energy into getting publicity for it...that is
>still working within traditional system. It's just a smaller scale with less
>money available to make it work.
>I don't think that makes it underground.
>
>That's my point.
>
>Fred
>P.S. There has to be some kind of agreement as to what underground means
>other wise we can all argue our points until we are blue in the face and
>still not agree and this thread will go on until someone calls me or someone
>else a Nazi or Hitler:)
>
>>From: "Dennis Donohue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org
>>Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
>>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:07:22 CDT
>>
>>
>>Quoting Webster:
>>
>>
>>Main Entry: 1un·der·ground
>>Pronunciation: "&n-d&r-'graund
>>Function: adverb
>>Date: 1571
>>1 : beneath the surface of the earth
>>2 : in or into hiding or secret operation
>>
>>Main Entry: 2underground
>>Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-"
>>Function: noun
>>Date: 1594
>>1 : a subterranean space or channel
>>2 : an underground city railway system
>>3 a : a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens
>>especially in an occupied
>>country for maintaining communications, popular solidarity, and concerted
>>resistive action
>>pending liberation b : a clandestine conspiratorial organization set up for
>>revolutionary
>>or other disruptive purposes especially against a civil order c : an
>>unofficial,
>>unsanctioned, or illegal but informal movement or group; especially : a
>>usually
>>avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the establishment
>>
>>Main Entry: 3un·der·ground
>>Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-"graund
>>Function: adjective
>>Date: 1610
>>1 : being, growing, operating, or situated below the surface of the ground
>>2 : conducted by secret means
>>3 a : existing outside the establishment <an underground literary
>>reputation> b : existing outside the purview of tax collectors or
>>statisticians <the underground economy>
>>4 a : produced or published outside the establishment especially by the
>>avant-garde <underground movies> <underground newspapers> b : of or
>>relating to the avant-garde underground <an underground moviemaker> <an
>>underground theater>
>>
>>
>>Main Entry: Underground Railroad
>>Function: noun
>>Date: 1842
>>: a system of cooperation among active antislavery people in the U.S.
>>before 1863 by which fugitive slaves were secretly helped to reach the
>>North or Canada -- called also Underground Railway
>>
>>
>>I think we are just arguing over the perceived definition of a word now.
>>Which means that someone had to get a definition. (that underground
>>railroad was just for fun!) Anyways, read the definitions before you start
>>calling someone a "sell-out" or what have you. If you like or dislike the
>>music, that's where you should stand, not telling them they can't promote
>>themselves on this list. If you can give your opinion, then they can
>>self-promote. Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their
>>right.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dennis.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Kent williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: FRED MCMURRY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org
>>>Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:44:44 -0500 (CDT)
>>>
>>>I think 'underground' doesn't mean that you can't sell records, or sign
>>>with a label. What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside
>>>the traditional manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems.
>>>Is Watts Music 'underground?' or Sonic Groove? No. They're brick and
>>>mortar
>>>businesses whose survival is dependent upon them operating as good
>>>capitalists.
>>>
>>>But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels,
>>>to
>>>specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. And there is
>>>a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit Grand
>>>Pubahs?),
>>>because to really play in that larger mass arena you have to tap into
>>>a whole new structure for distribution.
>>>
>>>kent williams -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>http://www.mp3.com/chaircrusher -- tunes
>>>http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=chaircrusher -- mix
>>>
>>>
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>>
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