Thank you for an excellent post. A lot of people would like to gloss over the fact that racism still exists in America and yes, in the Detroit area. They would like to pretend it's all done and over with and has not had an effect on the creation of this music and that it does not matter what skin color is behind the music. I would like to think that most people on this list are above this BS of skin color, and that is what they are trying to express by saying "why does it matter?"
The first poster was not trying to bring up a racist topic AT ALL! It's pretty sad that as soon as someone asks any questions on this list that include the words "black artists" you have all these people jumping on him and saying "it's not about that!!". It's not? Maybe not to you but to some people it may be. The same thing goes for the misquote of Juan Atkins the other day and the poster losing respect for him. That is the problem with the world today. Someone has a different view of things and because they do not agree with your world view you have "no respect" for him any more. Sad. Techno has been bastardized enough by drugs, raves, etc. and is now for the most part considered to the outside world that doesn't know any better as white music. Hence the frustration that Eddie was speaking of techno being ignored by black audiences. Granted, a lot of that is caused by the popularity of this thing they call rap and hip hop nowadays...pop music. All this to say: if someone on this is asking about black influences/artists, don't assume they are trying to start a thread about racism... Peace, Alex www.fulcruminn.net "Either they don't show, don't know, or don't give a fuck about the ghetto." Ice Cube -----Or From: Cyborg K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 1:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] Black techno artists] JAMES PENNINGTON: "The outer space stuff has always been a fascination because life on earth has always been so hard for us being black. Maybe outer space has no rules. No one has gravity in space." >from an interview posted on www.undergroundcommittee.com Let me preface this post be saying that I haven't posted on this list in a long time, but I feel that this topic is too important to ignore. It is impossible to analyze or understand cultural products without looking at their social context; now some of you may not want to understand, would prefer to be entertained without understanding, but I'm going to assume that if it is art then techno has potentials to raise consciousness and on a list dedicated to discussing DETROIT techno we have an obligation to try to understand rather than simply consume and enjoy. First of all, it's impossible to understand any AMERICAN music, much less DETROIT techno, without looking at issues of racial injustice specifically the relationships of whites and blacks. WHY IS THIS? Because the rhythms that are behind all of our popular musics are to a great degree African derived, that's what funk and soul is, it's the memory of these African rhythms passed down from generation to generation by a people who were taken from their homeland. Billy Hart, the great jazz drummer (in the 70's played with Pharoah Sanders and the Herbie Hancock sextet) has lectured about the African derivation of many of these rhythms, and has mentioned the possibility that these rhythms may even have specific characteristics, that they may have physical and spiritual aspects that act upon us when we hear them, an intriguing possibility. The point is, these rhythms were brought over by African slaves, and although the white masters attempted to completely destroy their culture and humanity, these rhythms were preserved and passed down... And then, in the 20th century, we find a new situation--slavery has ended, and again and again African-Americans are innovating and creating brilliant new styles of music, combining the sounds of their and environment and Western European influences with their own funky rhythms that they have preserved through all these years, rhythms rooted in African spiritual culture. But what happens??? Their rhythms are constantly hijacked and glossed over, their innovations are taken from them, their names are erased, and white-washed cultural commodities are produced that the white masses can handle, commodities that no longer preserve the memory of an African spiritual heritage. Blues, jazz, rock/pop, house, techno, it's been happening the whole 20th century and now it looks like it's going to continue right on into the 21st. Meanwhile, in a city like Detroit you have a state of de fact segration, a city full of African-Americans who have been abondoned to live in a wasteland while the suburbs that surround them prosper, a place where white people from the suburbs are AFRAID to visit the city, a city full of black people. Now there are a lot of aspects to the problems with Detroit that I can't get into, but how can you possibly understand "DETROIT TECHNO" without looking at Detroit which is a segragated city. Not to mention the fact that in America there is usually only one type of black artist that is acceptable, and that is the one that smiles, jokes, makes a fool of himself and panders to a white audience... I am a working musician (keyboards) and I SAW IT MYSELF, just last week, I was on the bandstand. It made me sad, but I can tell that behind the scenes these brothers are certainly not smiling and dancing. Even hip-hop and R&B, while perhaps coming on as more hardcore, seem to be producing a lot of music that can simply be enjoyed as a big spectacle, that stereotypes what "blackness" is, you can watch it from your home in the suburbs and say, "OH, so that's what the ghetto is like..." As if the ghetto were now a spectacle for us all to enjoy rather than a disgrace that no civilized people should allow to occur. At this point let me relate something personal, I am white and I grew up in a small town north of Lansing Michigan, and there were probably only two black families in town. One day I was shocked to hear a classmate say, and I don't like to repeat this but I'm going to because people need to understand, "If I ever catch a nigger on my property I'm going to grab my shotgun and kill him..." THAT is still the attitude of many white Americans. And so when an African-American makes a techno record you can BET that everything they have experienced, including racial injustice, is going to go into that record. Why would Kevin Saunderson make a track with a sample of MLK Jr saying "We find these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...", why does Jay Denham have a track that goes "Black Power, it's time for Black Power", it's because these kind of conditions still exist and art is a potential means to raise awareness of them. Racial problems only get worse when you ignore them. And to forget historical injustice is to erase the victims from history and let the oppresors win. We should never forget slavery in America, we should never forget Auswitchz either (or Dresden and Hiroshima for that matter...) Only by remembering can we hope to change the course of history so that these things don't happen over and over and over again. Yes we should imagine utopian spaces, "maybe outer space has no rules", BUT we should never confuse these utopias with the world we live in, we have to fight to create these spaces and that takes active recognition of the many forms of injustice on this planet. And that is why in the here and now we cannot afford to be color blind. MAD MIKE: "...The programmers taught them that all brothers that didnt have on silver shoes and didn't smile or laugh at bullshit jokes and small talk were probably criminals... I am a very serious brother nothing that I do or have done with UR is funny or entertaining, I am not a clown and I will never tap dance on cue..." from a message to the 313 list /cyborgk: TECHNOLOGY IS POWER. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Super Coffee Beans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Phonopsia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <313@hyperreal.org> Subject: Re: [313] Black techno artists] Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:50:08 +0200 put emphasis on the music, and the person who make, by asking this racial questions u only make the racial problem. if u think about the persons who make the music as REAL live person and not as black or white but as human, things will be better. you might say i am just one little person and racial problem is a fact- well if u want a change do the change. and those try to demolish all this racial stuff from the discourse. i know what i am saying i am jewish. y. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phonopsia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <313@hyperreal.org> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [313] Black techno artists] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "armin holzgethan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <313@hyperreal.org> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 7:51 AM > Subject: Re: [313] Black techno artists] > > > i still don't get it. > > > > what are you aiming at? how & where should this recognition express > itself? on > > mtv, usa today? how many people know stephen king? and how many know > malcolm > > lowry? > > I'm aiming at recognition in the electronic music underground. How to > quantify recognition? Sure it's oblique... How about references in histories > of house (AV and textual) for one. Prolly a lame definition, but you get > what I'm on about. > > > all those you mention are more or less known to people into this music. > some > > will reach a certain status as "innovators", some will be forgotten. some > will > > blow up by accident because the time is right and/or because they work > towards > > it. maybe this has sometimes to do with the quality and the aim of their > work > > too? to blame it all on the circumstances seems to me as banal as the > opposite, > > which is to blame it all on the lack of marketing skills. > > I don't think that's the whole cup of tea. There's a mythos attached to the > term "Chicago House DJ" that is not parallel to "Detroit House DJ" in the > mind of the average club-goer who is somewhat in-the-know. For instance, > "Chicago's Gene Farris" immediately has a credibility to the average house > club-goer that "Detroit's Terrence Parker" does not. To see this in effect, > look at a poster for Gene Farris' "Booked" CD. > > > tp has a relatively huge fanbase in germany because of his djing. all of > his > > records i know of are mediocre. alan oldham's stuff lacks originality big > time. > > just to be a detroiter and having started in 1988 is not enough. > > Yeah. TP has built a dedicated fan-base in Germany over the years, but he is > relatively unknown and hasn't played in Washington DC in years (if ever). > This is a house music city and has been for over a decade. Ron Trent has > been here (but he's known here for his work living in New York) and Alton > Miller has played here once. At the same time, at least 10 Chicago house DJs > have played here, not to mention endless DJs from New York (although they > have a geographical advantage to DJs form the midwest). In addition to that, > most "scenes" in the eastern U.S. "buy into" a New York version of the > history of house/garage. Statements like "everyone knows house came from New > York" would not be uncommon, and generally reinforced through local > promotions/myths/regional email lists, etc. Not only is the Chicago history > of house downplayed if recognized at all, the Detroit history of house is > completely absent. You could almost flip the coin and apply all of that to > Chicago - but not to the same degree, and again Detroit is missing from the > puzzle. History's are being written today, and it takes a history of house > and techno *in Detroit* to recognize Detroit House, although the impact of > Detroit house from the 80s was just as lasting as any other. Couldn't we put > the Music Institute right near the Warehouse and the Paradise Garage in > terms of legendary clubs that defined and nurtured scenes? You can't try to > tell me this is even 1/10th as recognizable as either of the former in > today's music histories. > > > self-esteem is not supposed to grow because of one's name in the paper or > a > > certain number on one's bank statement, but because one feels that he/she > is > > doing the right thing and maybe because one lifts the artform to new > heights. > > the name all over the paper and the big bucks in the bank are most of the > time > > & and as long as this capitalist etc society stands a sign that one > submitted & > > adapted oneself successfully to the expectations of society. same as good > marks > > at school. same as any institutional or mainstream recognition. in this > sense > > most of the time mainstream success can be used as a sign for irrelevance. > > What I was noting with my list was people who generally don't get the same > acclaim as their peers from the '80s in Chicago and New York in the > histories of house - not specifically in terms of bank rolls. Detroit house > is something that most people into house can't even recognize. > > Tristan > ---------- > http://www.mp313.com <- Music > http://www.metrotechno.net <- DC techno + more > http://www.metatrackstudios.com <- DC DJ/Production studios > http://phonopsia.tripod.com <- Hub > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <- email > <FrogboyMCI> <- AOL Instant Messenger > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]