Hi Gustin :)

> They can all install what they want.  I don't see what the fuss is about.

Back to the topic, it started with

"Subject:     Re: [64studio-users] Version 3
Date:     Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:08:33 +0100
From:     Dragan Noveski

[snip]

i really do not like gnome or such, and reinstalling this hole gdm stuff
and making fluxbox to default does not looks easy at all for me...

[snip]"

It's not easy for some people.

Now to the discussion that was caused by this

> I keep posting this link, but perhaps I should make it be a part of my
> signature:
>
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Hehe, an advice as long as the bible, how to ask questions if you have
problems with Linux.

> Sometimes things are the way they are because the developer did not know
> of another way, or perhaps he or she was limited by their abilities or
> time

That's right.

> Even if that work flow is popular, it may not be efficient or even
> appropriate.

That's right. Cubase shouldn't be the Bible for Linux ;), anyway the
concept is pro-audio proved, e.g. the way the virtual mixing console
works, is like all good non-virtual mixing consoles work, independent if
they cost 120000,- EUR or 120,- EUR, there are some things well proved.

> The QWERTY keyboard is popular in English countries, but it is far
> from the best keyboard layout.

Now we can go on esoteric and discuss if there is a morphogenetic field
or not. QWERTY or QWERTZ for German keyboards is well proved for
typewriters, not for the last typewriters with balls where the types
were on, but for the very old mechanical typewriters, to prevent to get
the types caught up.

I prefer a QWERTZ instead of an ABCDEF keyboard for our kind of
alphabet, but this is because I'm habitual with it for decades. For very
oldish typewriters it's the best layout because of technical reasons.
Nowadays there aren't those technical reasons any more, this is
something complete different to thing we discuss here.

> There was a time in your past when you did not know what to do with a
> can and a can opener.

And there was a time when I had to learn how to use a mixing console and
I would learn how to use a new layout for a mixing console, if this has
a good reason, but not because of not thought-out ideas. I will use
jconv because it's the best FLOSS reverb I know, but not because it's
good to use a reverb by command line, instead of a GUI ;). There will be
a GUI some day, it takes time to program this, but it would be stupid if
people would say it would be better not to program a GUI ;).

> but almost always there is some mechanism for you to learn on your own.

The oldest and best, well proved for everyone. It's called trial and
error. Practical knowledge is handled in a different way by the brain,
than something that was read or "learned by heart" (a not good metaphor,
because it's far a way from the heart, to learn by this way).
Independent to how you are, the way knowledge is handled by
mnemotechnics is near to the handling done for knowledge that's from
trial and error. Often there's missing the quality for Linux, to use it
by intention, e.g. GIMP, the way "snap grid" and "configure" grid are in
different pull down menus, in theory is plausible, but for many needs
not practical. It was better when this functions was in one menu, like
it was a long time ago. There are ways of learning, that are equal for
mentally handicaped, "normal" and highly gifted people. And there are
ways of learning that are only fine for "normal" people and Linux tends
to be for "normal" people instead of being for all people. Not in
general, but for many things, because there often is the intention to
educate, instead of being intuitive.

This is something that rules my live, because I'm a dyslexic and highly
gifted. It's not a specified problem for Linux and I guess I was in
contact with people who were mentally handicaped, but fine with Linux
and this not only for simple stuff, they were hardcore shell workers.
It's not that I guess that things for Linux only can be black or white.
GIMP is one of the most intuitive pixel orientated picture manipulating
applications I know.

This discussion is because of the request for a WM and I guess we can't
isolate this from the DE. A DE should be something that can be used by
everyone, e.g. for visually impaired people too. Thinking of this, GNOME
seems to be a very good choice, because Orca is from GNOME. I don't need
Orca, I can see, but I tested it and there were problems for the KDE,
maybe there will problems for Fluxbox too and perhaps less problems for
GNOME.

I followed a Ubuntu discussion were people that were able to see, asked
to remove functions for blind, because they do not like to have stuff
they don't need. If people are blind, they should install this functions
them self. I guess it will be easier to remove something for people that
are able to see, than to install a driver for braille by a person, that
don't get any messages from the computer, without a braille driver. For
people that are Linux-Freaks, this often isn't clear, because they often
have blinders and can't see to the left and right.

People are different, what I like with FLOSS is, that one project can be
spilt in two ore more different new projects, to fit needs for different
people. What I don't like is, that this will often result in enemyship,
not seldom just because of theoretic things like the GPL. Linux often is
FLOSS with to many rules.

Should http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html be a help or
should this be an aggression? Subliminal this is aggressive, even if the
intention was another.

> a single consistent GUI helps us help the newcomers by reducing the
> number of variables.

This is a very good argument, I fully agree with it. It's better for me
to get help and better for me to give help. The DE shouldn't change with
each distro.

The request was to have Fluxbox as an default alternative. Maybe there
are arguments pro and contra a new DE.
The blame (also) is on me ;), but I'm often missing arguments pro and
contra for many issues about Linux, very often I read opinions without
argumentations.

> You are obviously not very familiar with the KDE4 project.  Looking at
> screen shots does not count :)

I'm using KDE4 very often. When I got my first own PC, this was at the
time Suse 9.0 was actual, since that time I'm using Suse. Actually I'm
using Suse 11.0 with KDE4 and KDE3.

> Also keep in mind that KDE4 has been in development for a long time.
> Some of the ideas that formed it were quite unique when they were
> announced. The default interface as provided by the distros that ship
> it, have maintained that 80's look and feel, but under the hood is so
> much more.  That default look was driven by user feedback who complained
> that things were too different.

We shouldn't become more OT. I don't agree with you.

Cheers,
Ralf


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