I have an idea. You show me where what I have said is wrong.

They are most definitely critcisms - and respond to your own summary
of Benjamin in fact. Though I have read him myself and I know what I
say is relevant (to the extent what he says is clear).

I think it is a pity Benjamin is inflicted on students. I have sat in
seminars where his work has been discussed. and have seen first hand
the confusion he generates.  He is one of those writers who can gives
aesthetics a bad name.

DA

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Saul Ostrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These are not criticism - it makes no specific point - you would first have
> to demonstrate that your characterizations actually stem from Benjamin's
> work -
> Chair, Visual Arts and Technologies
> The Cleveland Institute of Art
>
>
>
>
>> From: Derek Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: <[email protected]>
>> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:06:23 +1000
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: Presence
>>
>> Ah the good old 'I have undergrads who could do better' answer.
>>
>> But what about responding to the specific criticisms I have made?
>>
>> In a way I am glad this topic has come up. I had never really
>> consciously recognised before just how limited Benjamin's outlook is,
>> especially from a historcial point of view. It's quite surprising in a
>> way, given that he was writing the 1930s and so much was known by that
>> time about the attitudes of early and other cultures towards the
>> objects we now call art. Malraux was certainly keenly aware of it and
>> had integrated it well and truly into his thinking by then.  Benjamin
>> is still wallowing around in a basically 19th century "linear" view of
>> history - not surprising really, I guess, since he is obviously stiil
>> so much in the shadow of Marx.
>>
>> DA
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Saul Ostrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> And this passes for a analysis and a polemeic - please I hav eunder grads
>>> who can do better than this
>>> Chair, Visual Arts and Technologies
>>> The Cleveland Institute of Art
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Derek Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: <[email protected]>
>>>> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:10:55 +1000
>>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>>> Subject: Re: Presence
>>>>
>>>> RE: 'Benjamin used the word "aura" to refer to the sense of awe and
>>>> reverence one
>>>> presumably experienced in the presence of unique works of art. According to
>>>> Benjamin, this aura inheres not in the object itself but rather in external
>>>> attributes such as its known line of ownership, its restricted exhibition,
>>>> its publicized authenticity, or its cultural value. Aura is thus indicative
>>>> of art's traditional association with primitive, feudal, or bourgeois
>>>> structures of power and its further association with magic and (religious 
>>>> or
>>>> secular) ritual.'
>>>>
>>>> (1) I like 'presumably' experienced...
>>>>
>>>> (2) In 'primitive', and 'feudal'  times there were no 'works of art'.
>>>> Slight glitch in Benjamin's historical analysis there.
>>>>
>>>> (3) Why should any of this have anything to do with 'structures of
>>>> power' ?  As I recall, there is nothing in Benjamin to demonstrate
>>>> this. (But what the heck, it sounds classy. And there are nice Marxist
>>>> resonances - without actually having to invoke Marx...)
>>>>
>>>> (4) Re:"such as its known line of ownership, its restricted
>>>> exhibition, its publicized authenticity, or its cultural value. "
>>>>
>>>> This is so hopelessly shaky historically speaking. For vast stretches
>>>> of history and for large numbers of objects we now regard as art, the
>>>> question of 'line of ownership' was entirely irrelevant. Ditto the
>>>> notion of 'exhibition.'   The statues at Chartres were not on
>>>> 'exhibition', or Buddhist sculpture or so much else. That is Western
>>>> post-Renaissance thinking.  Authenticity?? The very notion would not
>>>> have made sense.  Ditto a million times over for 'cultural value'.
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin's' outlook is so obviously limited by the conventional
>>>> leftist thinking of his times...
>>>>
>>>> There is more to say but I'll leave it at that.
>>>>
>>>> DA
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Saul Ostrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>> Benjamin used the word "aura" to refer to the sense of awe and reverence
>>>>> one
>>>>> presumably experienced in the presence of unique works of art. According 
>>>>> to
>>>>> Benjamin, this aura inheres not in the object itself but rather in 
>>>>> external
>>>>> attributes such as its known line of ownership, its restricted exhibition,
>>>>> its publicized authenticity, or its cultural value. Aura is thus 
>>>>> indicative
>>>>> of art's traditional association with primitive, feudal, or bourgeois
>>>>> structures of power and its further association with magic and (religious
>>>>> or
>>>>> secular) ritual. With the advent of art's mechanical reproducibility, and
>>>>> the development of forms such as film in which there is no actual 
>>>>> original,
>>>>> the experience is freed from place and ritual. "For the first time in 
>>>>> world
>>>>> history," Benjamin wrote, "mechanical reproduction emancipates the work of
>>>>> art from its parasitical dependence on ritual."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Derek Allan
>>>> http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>>>> believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Derek Allan
>> http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>> believed to be clean.
>
>
>



-- 
Derek Allan
http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm

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