I always had special place for Titian in my heart and would not disrespect any of his work. No artist created only masterpieces and we can express opinion about any particular preference, but have to rely on more than just pure subjective emotional response, which BTW can be changed to a degree with experience. It happened to me. Boris Shoshensky To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
I need to concede to Mando and Miller, and perhaps others here re the tit-tat over Titian's late works. They persist in avoiding the issues and persist in elevating their personal feelings about art as the only measure of ITS value and not as simply an expression of THEIR values. I certainly agree that the object has no intrinsic value/meaning but I do think it can be surrounded by a surrogate value/meaning by some process of consensus. I think this is what Saul was referring to when he brought up Kant and the independent status of an essence that can't be treated except subjectively. So, a consensus of subjectivity is the best we can do. And it counts. When it comes to examining the work of a great artist, one who has been awarded that status through a long and detailed and complex process leading to consensus, we need to have the humility to know the details of the consensus if we intend to judge it and the artist's work as well. Mando and Miller think not. And Mando, with his sparkling halo of the spiritual, intuitive artist, and Miller, with his tortured anti-intellectual, anti-academic/institiutional predisposition, have the temerity to set me up as some sort of alien supreme court pedagogue when it's abundantly clear from their positions, that they, not me, and not others, occupy the nefarious position because they just, well, sense their authority in their souls. Not good enough for me. Why? Partly because no artwork exists in a vacuum, unaffected by the home cultures in which it was created and the later cultures it passes through. So you can't expect to be prepared to judge a work of art, even if you can experience it, without being steeped in the auras of those surrounding cultures. Talk about the experience all you like, be as moved or teary-eyed or as emboldened as you wish, but don't attempt to judge until you have done some homework. The fact is that no one here is dealing with my repeated efforts to separate judgment from the sense/feeling of personal experience. I'm just happy to know that this issue was resolved centuries ago in courts. Not only in the USA by Justice Holmes but also in republics long gone. Nowadays juries are rigorously instructed to learn the aforementioned distinction. We no longer dip people into hot vats of oil to see if they wiggle in agonizing death (thus guilty) or just die limply (thus not guilty). These assertions of intuitive, personal feelings as bona-fide judgment are akin to those brutal and ludicrous actics of the Inquisition. WC ________________________________ From: armando baeza <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 12:46:16 PM Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian You are only defending your personal subjective ideas of what is true to you and others like you, As the "Supreme Court of Aesthetics". I don't buy that. mando On Apr 4, 2009, at 11:08 AM, William Conger wrote: > Savage is right. Ruthless in the defense of reason and intellect and knowledge and virtue and insight and nuance and deference to the spiritual feminine and all things true, beautiful, and fearful. > WC > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: armando baeza <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 10:37:38 AM > Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian > > I truly believe that his "savage" remark came from his soul. > I feel sorry for him. > Apache native > mando > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 8:03 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> In a message dated 4/3/09 8:23:38 PM, [email protected] writes: >> >> >>> And huzzah on your arrogant artist's defense of Titian, even those bad >>> late ones. <g> >>> >>> Michael, you often bring a rewarding, arch, irony to your lines. >> Occasionally >> this undermines surety about what your own position is, but that can be okay. >> For example, it's unsure if you are praising or ridiculing William here. >> >> I don't agree with William when he chastises Mando for daring to deride any >> work of Titian's -- as you also dae to do by insinuating Titian had bad late >> paintings. As Horace said, "Sometimes even noble Homer nods." I have >> frequent >> dinners with a friend who is a Shakespeare scholar. The admiration we feel for >> W.S. is such that sometimes all we can do is shake our heads in loving awe. >> But we would never think of defending his every line. In truth, I think that >> to >> condemn any criticism whatever of W.S. -- or Titian -- would be to display a >> defective sensibility. But I grant I can't be sure William was being serious >> when he rounded on Mando... >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a >> recession. >> (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003 >> ) ____________________________________________________________ Enjoy the functional flexibility of a new futon. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYTLvPIDmShojAz9QsFj2Pipx oPdxKDqWvwNAVzi3rVpeDdW9qdqqU/
