Out of curiosity, what do you tell customers who say they don’t own a
computer? Not being hypothetical or argumentative, I am actually
getting that maybe 50% of the time now.
If they say their computer is a laptop without an Ethernet jack, I tell
them to buy a $5 Ethernet cable and a $20 USB-Ethernet dongle at Best
Buy for testing purposes. But I don’t have a good response to the
people who have no computer at all, other than a truck roll to test it
ourselves, which of course is what we want to avoid unless there’s an
actual problem.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 11:22 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
I think I replied what we tell customers. We don't support any speedtest
except what our guide says to do. I'll attach it here. This means no
Google wifi tests or orbi, etc.
We will still troubleshoot and check Calix for any performance issues
but if the complaint is simply a speedtest and we aren't getting what we
pay for, we send them our guide and only accept results following it.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 11:03 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
Maybe start a new Calix thread? My original post was about the
speedtest built into Google routers and if anyone knew how it worked
and whether it has accuracy problems.
I dislike the Google/Nest routers and discourage customers from
using them, but saying I should deploy Calix everywhere doesn’t
really address my question which comes from customers reporting
alleged problems reported by their Google automatic speedtests.
That’s a little harder to troubleshoot than a customer calling
because they are having trouble streaming Disney+ right now, or
getting bad speedtest.net <http://speedtest.net> results right now.
It’s more like my Google report says I haven’t been getting what I
pay you for over the past couple weeks.
Especially confusing, this customer claimed the bad results started
right around the time we added his tower to our Preseem system.
That’s strange since we’ve been gradually rolling out Preseem for a
year now and it has made things better not worse. Also Preseem
gives us lots of additional graphs which show this customer’s speed
and latency on real traffic has been picture perfect. If I look at
Google FAQs and blog posts regarding their speedtest, there seems to
be two variants. The M-Lab one appears to be quite old, with some
questionable approaches like single TCP connection and avoiding
nearby servers, as well as currently undergoing a major TCP/IP
algorithm change based on a change in philosophy regarding what
constitutes congestion, and packet loss vs bufferbloat. But it
sounds like the speedtest built into the Google routers may test to
Google servers, specifically Youtube.
If built in automated speedtests are a trend, I expect to hear more
of these complaints. Even if you provide a managed “residential
gateway” type of solution, you can’t stop people from putting their
own networking devices behind it. All the major vendors are trying
to sell smart home ecosystems that integrate with or are controlled
by a router type device. If you’ve bought into the Google Nest
ecosystem, you have your Nest Thermostat, Nest Hubs, Nest Minis,
Google Home, all talking to your Nest WiFi mesh system. You tell
your Nest Hub “Hey Google, check my Internet speed” and the Nest Hub
tells the Nest WiFi to run a speedtest and then the Hub says “your
Internet sucks” or whatever.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 10:28 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
I'm not coming up with my own anything. I'm not having to code
anything. It's standards. Standards that Calix took and pay-walled.
The software I'm using is the same software Calix forked.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
<mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 9:59:49 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
I'd say I have the technical ability to do something other than
Calix but you are correct, I do not have the desire to do anything else.
I'm busy adding revenue into the company by upgrading the network,
increasing plan prices, adding TV & Phone, targeting business
customers, etc. All of this is way more important to grow the
business than trying to come up with our own Management router
platform. It would only hurt us to not use something like Calix that
works out of the box. I suggest you try to think less like a
techie/geek and more like a business person who likes profit. This
would change your mindset I think into using easy management
platforms that cost a little money. We pay $0.51 per month/sub for
Calix Cloud which is extremely affordable to me. For that small
amount, I don't need any servers, VM's, or coding knowledge.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:26 AM Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net
<mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
That would be incorrect. I have Calix DSLAMs and have worked
with Calix for a few years. Their paid support leaves much to be
desired. Obvious SNMP bug is obvious and they don't care.
I'm not going to say the Calix product is a bad product, but
there's a severe amount of fanboyism around it that I believe is
unwarranted. I don't believe people actually looked into
alternatives.
I have to setup and manage a server? So? It's just another VM on
the existing platform.
Saving money isn't my only drive. Having a more flexible system
has its advantages.
It seems as though you don't have the technical desire to do
something not Calix... and that's fine, but it's not the only
(or even best) way to skin the cat.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
<mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 8:54:12 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
Mike,
It's apparent to me that you have not demoed or had physical
Calix products in your hand before. What you just proposed
requires much more hands-on setup and support than Calix which
is all handled by them with a technical team to back it up. Your
solution requires you to deploy one or more servers, set them
up, make sure they don't go down, then pray that you or the
vendor can help fix an issue when it shows up. I guarantee that
all costs much more money than what we pay Calix in terms of
actual license costs and labor savings.
Plus I'm positive Calix hardware performs better than any other
router you find like Comtrend and the mesh solution won't be as
pretty or seamless either. Probably not one-touch like Calix is.
You think you're going to save money with your own solution but
all you'll do is spend more time and money than I do and have a
worse platform. There's a reason why so many telcos deploy Calix
and it's because it's cheaper in the long run from labor
efficiencies and better customer experience.
I keep preaching to WISP's that doing everything yourself is
hurting your business. Outsource what doesn't make you money.
Managing servers and playing with Linux, etc does NOT make you
money. Adding new customer revenue does that for you so deploy
solutions that require as little of your time as possible so you
can focus on selling and increasing revenue. Calix allows us to
do that as well as Preseem & Azotel. If we tried to do what
you're doing, we would be stuck in the mud messing around and
not making as much money.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 8:45 AM Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net
<mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The road we're going down is likely Comtrend routers with a
Finepoint ACS.
The Calix system is just a fork of an earlier Finepoint product.
TR-069 and TR-143 manage most of the fancy features people
that love Calix love to boast about.
The advantage of something like this is that there is no
vendor lock-in. One dashboard to support any device in the
field, though the capabilities of that management would
depend on what the device manufacturer has decided to implement.
There are standards such as IEEE 1905 and the WiFi
Alliance's Easy Mesh that intelligently handle cross-vendor
meshing, so nothing special about the Calix meshing either.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Tushar Patel" <tpa...@ecpi.com
<mailto:tpa...@ecpi.com>>
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 8:32:59 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
And the Alternatives are?
Tushar
*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 8:31 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
There's no way Calix will get a dime from me. Everything is
so expensive compared to alternatives.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Jason McKemie" <j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com
<mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>>
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Sent: *Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:29:01 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
What does Calix get you for on the management? I've been
looking into some options for managed routers, and I like
the 844E, but Calix is pretty proud of their management
platform and it just doesn't make a lot of sense for the
number of managed routers we would be deploying right now.
I'm wondering if anyone out there has any experience with
Ubiquiti's Dream Machine (unfortunate name, since Sony has
been using it for a couple of decades). At least Ubiquiti
has a management platform that I don't need to sacrifice my
firstborn for.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:47 AM Darin Steffl
<darin.ste...@mnwifi.com <mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
wrote:
Guys,
Start heavily pushing managed routers. We're all Calix
with 804mesh and we include the first router free in all
our plans.
Makes a huge difference.
Google wifi is bad because there's no way to manually
set the 5ghz channel away from our radio. We have one
customer we told this and that their service will stink
until they switch to our router or get a different mesh
system like orbi where you can still set the channel
manually.
We also do not support any speedtest except
speedtest.net <http://speedtest.net> and selecting one
server we like. Also they have to be hardwired to the
POE or we won't respond to their tests. This eliminates
much of the back and forth wifi speedtests.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 11:34 AM Matt Hoppes
<mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net
<mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote:
I've had a slew of wifi related calls this week.
Plug in, no issue.
WiFi -- interference - customer needs to get a dual
band router, or it's
so bad it's just not fixable.
I really just want to tell folks "WiFi is not
supported on our service,
use at your own risk"... but of course, I can't do that.
On 1/23/20 11:54 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> Anybody know if the speedtest built into the Google and Nest WiFi mesh
> routers use the same M-Lab speedtest as the one a Google search sends
> you to? Their FAQ seems to indicate it is different and tests to
> Youtube servers.
>
> Apparently they have a feature where customers can set it up to
> periodically test their speed, and now I have customers calling in to
> report that their router says they aren’t getting the speed they’re
> paying for. We burn a bunch of time checking all the stats, including
> Preseem which shows no problems at all and actual traffic consistently
> to the speed plan they’re on. When asked what they were trying to do
> that was slow or when they ran the speedtest, they can’t cite any
> problems and the speedtests were done days ago and they are just
> reviewing the Google report.
>
> One guy said the Google report indicated his dish moved in a windstorm
> so we needed to come out and fix it. We have all sorts of graphs on his
> signal, SNR, etc. and his dish had not moved. We had however moved this
> tower onto Preseem for bandwidth management around that time. Everyone
> else is seeing better performance as a result, video streaming, gaming
> and web browsing now play nice together. I’m wondering if somehow the
> Google speedtest doesn’t like the Preseem algorithms (FQ-CODEL + AQM),
> or if their speedtest is just flakey.
>
> I don’t have a Google or Nest WiFi to test with. We have a whole list
> of other reasons why we hate them. Generally we tell customers not to
> buy them unless they are on a 3.65 GHz AP, but customers like to say
> screw you and then still expect you to be responsible for their bad
> decisions. (Like the customers who select the cheap plan despite being
> told it is too slow to watch streaming video, and then call to complain
> about streaming video.)
>
> Other reasons we hate them:
>
> - no dedicated backhaul channel, compared to (for example) Netgear Orbi
>
> - only 1 or 2 Ethernet ports
>
> - requires Google account and app
>
> - requires cloud
>
> - uses Google DNS by default
>
> - tell me they’re not doing data mining
>
> - puck and point terminology is goofy, reminiscent of Apple and their
> airports and time capsules
>
>
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