you should be able to diy a solution for .12c/Wh, that's what I'm doing, would be cool to see if anyone else is doing anything similar? Just need some lifepo4/li-ion modules, a 60v bms and a rack shelf..
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 2:28 PM Peter Kranz via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote: > Chuck, something you may want to consider in your calculations is that I > am comfortable taking LiFePO4 batteries to 100% DOD, whereas I never go > below 50% DOD for my AGM backup systems. I guess one could make a case that > I’m not cycling my AGM systems very much, so I shouldn’t care about the > huge cycle life penalties of 100% DOD in which case your spreadsheet is > still valid. > > > > But assuming we go with the 50% DOD argument, I can fit 4x170Ah AGMs in > the bottom of my racks: > > > > 4x Deka 170Ah 12AVR1700-ET @ $495 = $1980 (120 lbs x 4 = 480 lbs) > > @50% DOD = 4080Wh of storage in a package 22” deep and 12.6” high or > $.48/Wh > > > > The equivalent LiFePO4 new unit: > > > > 1x MeritSun LFP100-48 Units = $2200 (138 lbs) > > @100% DOD = 4800Wh of storage in a package 16”deep and 8.7” high or $.45/Wh > > > > So, my conclusion so far is if you are buying relatively expensive telecom > rated AGM batteries and only going to 50% DOD with them, you may be > breaking even with LiFEPO4 based systems. > > > > > *Peter Kranz*www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> > Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 > Mobile: 510-207-0000 > pkr...@unwiredltd.com > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2020 10:33 AM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > I repost the list. > > > > You can get a front post telecom batt for 16 cents per watt hour. But > yeah, 20 cents is more like it. > > If solar flooded cells are OK, those can be had in the 7 cent range. > > > > *From:* TJ Trout > > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2020 11:20 AM > > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > I don't know what you guys are smoking :) but SLA/VRLA batteries are $200+ > kh/w unless we are talking walmart boat batteries which are ~$100kw/h, I > just posted two sites with li-ion batteries with many options for 70-100$ > per kw/h ?? > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 8:46 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote: > > I think you nailed it. And until commercial Li batteries reduce price by > 1/2 or more they aren't competitive except in special use cases. (RV and > such)... with 1/2 price drop and 2x the performance it's effectively a 4x > difference in requirements and then they equal the utility of wet deep > cycle. They really need to be less than 1/2 the price to be a no-brainer... > > On 2/14/20 8:03 AM, Mathew Howard wrote: > > As I see it, for backup or solar applications, all that really matters is > $/kWH, lifespan, and temperature tolerance (and that generally doesn't even > matter if they're not outside). Are there any realistic advantages from > lithiums other than size/weight? That's obviously important for a cell > phone or an electric car, but it's pretty much irrelevant for what we're > talking about doing. > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 9:18 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > > I only care about $/kWH > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Feb 13, 2020, at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > > > > Chuck, if you are after high kw/h and don't mind low density, the Leaf > packs are really awesome, the modules are basically made to be modularly > packed, you can use all-thread. Several off the shelf PCB's available to > make them into 8s, 16s packs with all of the cell voltages already pinned > out, basically a diy kit is available to make them into packs and they are > sub $100/kwh > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:05 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > > all of the batteries batteryhookup.com and bigbattery.com are _used_ or > new old stock, nothing new. > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:02 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > > you get what you pay for, all of these guys guarantee the models to > discharge to the specs they provide or money back > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote: > > You should be aware, that bigbattery.com is selling _used_ batteries. > For example the 24v "powerwall" 3KWh unit for $699 is a used unit per Will > Prowse. His testing showed 67% degradation from new. What the cycle life > of a 67% depleted battery array is unknown.. > > On 2/13/20 10:54 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: > > Hoboy does she have some nice batteries... > > > > *From:* Brian Webster > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 11:49 AM > > *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > Same here…… > > > > Thank you, > > Brian Webster > > www.wirelessmapping.com > > > > *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Mathew Howard > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 12:41 PM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > I'm afraid to click on that link... > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > > Also bigbattery.com is another good source > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 8:46 AM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > some guy named ron is coming over to charge my batteries now > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:20 AM Brian Webster <i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote: > > To make sure you get the proper connectors, why else? > > > > Thank you, > > Brian Webster > > www.wirelessmapping.com > > > > *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Chuck McCown > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 10:42 AM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > I wonder why they want to know my gender? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Feb 13, 2020, at 3:22 AM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > > > > Battery hookup.com has the modules, don't buy them all guys. They say > Daly BMS works good. Make sure you get a bms with low temp and low voltage > disconnect. > > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:26 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > > Do tell. Where do you get the batts? What BMS are you using? > > Do you want to resell? I would volunteer to be logistics and fulfillment > if you want. > > > > *From:* TJ Trout > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:19 PM > > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > Guys, every chemistry of lithium battery (lifepo4, li-ion, lto, etc) are > available in 1 to 10 KW modules at less than $100 a kilowatt hour most of > them test between 70 to 99% of the rated capacity mostly removed from > electric vehicles anyways we repurpose them into storage for our equipment > you just need a 48 volt BMS to balance the cells and provide low > temperature and low voltage protection. > > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:50 PM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote: > > They have three problems.. 1) Cost.. Yeah they break the bank. 2) low > voltage compared to other chemistries, which means _more_ cost 3) poor > efficiency.. You put in 100 watts, you only get 80 watts out. All of > this is from listening to Will Prowse.. He has an excellent set of tubes > on them... > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q > > On 2/12/20 5:33 PM, Steve Jones wrote: > > these they say are good for subzero charging, thats what appeals to me and > that the subzero doesnt affect discharge rate > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:39 PM Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote: > > Lithiums degrade with temps over 130 degrees F ( depending upon > chemistry and if you attempt to charge them below freezing. Failure can > result from trying to charge below freezing. Between those extremes > they do pretty well. The below freezing is a deal breaker for outside > solar. There are manufacturers ( BattleBorn + others ) that are coming > out with heaters to get around that. > > On 02/12/2020 04:21 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: > > I'm wondering how well lithiums hold up compared to flooded cells in a > > non-environmentally controlled area. I suspect it's worse. > > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:20 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com > <ch...@wbmfg.com%20%0b>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <ch...@wbmfg.com>>> > wrote: > > > > In my 42+ years of dealing with stationary flooded cells is that you > > can > > easily get 20+ years from them if they are properly maintained and > > kept in > > an environmentally controlled area. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Prince > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:04 PM > > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > I think you would expect at least 2-3 times the life with lithium > > (almost all the various chemistries currently in vogue). You can also > > increase discharge tolerance to 80-90 percent instead of the usual > > lead-acid 50% (or thereabouts). > > > > I think the cost is still a bit over the top. Maybe another year or > two > > depending. > > > > > > bp > > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > > > > On 2/12/2020 3:47 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: > > > Life also matters. > > > > > > Half the cost but has to be replaced in half the time would not > > be a good > > > deal. With my luck, if batteries die after 3 years, I'll have a > > big power > > > outage every 37 months. And it's not just a cost calculation. > > Lugging > > > half > > > a ton of new batteries out to a tower and then hauling the old > > ones back > > > for > > > recycling sucks. So if someone has battery technology that lasts > > 10 or 20 > > > years, that's worth a bunch. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com > <af-boun...@af.afmug.com%0b>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com > <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > > <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <ch...@wbmfg.com>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:36 PM > > > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>> > > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > > > Charging time doesn't interest me much in a grid backup > > situation. The > > > cost > > > of the battery per watt hour is normally my only consideration > for a > > > backup > > > battery. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Robert Andrews > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 4:25 PM > > > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>> > > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > > > > > Nice thing about the lithium Iron is any charger that is > programmable > > > will work. And the faster you can charge them the better. You > > think > > > flooded times of 2-4 hours and with a big charger the lithium > > banks can > > > charge at 100amps and 1 hour. > > > > > > On 02/12/2020 02:06 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com > <ch...@wbmfg.com>> > > wrote: > > >> 21 cents per watt hour. That is not competitive with flooded > cells. > > >> And what kind of special charger would you have to have? > > >> *From:* Peter Kranz via AF > > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2020 5:36 PM > > >> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>> > > >> *Cc:* Peter Kranz > > >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs? > > >> > > >> Anyone successfully built a telecom UPS solution using rack mount > > >> LiFePO4 batteries sourced from china? > > >> > > >> There seems to be endless arrays of rack mount solutions there: > > >> > > >> > > > https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/48v-100ah-200ah-lithium-ion-bat > > >> > tery_60844575234.html?spm=a2700.details.pronpeci14.6.7e40675elEWkcL > > >> > > >> Prices run about 25% the cost of locally sourced LiFePO4 > solutions. > > >> The selection is crazy however, and who knows what the gotchas > are. > > >> > > >> *Peter Kranz > > >> *www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.UnwiredLtd.com> > > <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> > > >> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 > > >> Mobile: 510-207-0000 > > >> pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com > <pkr...@unwiredltd.com>> > > >> > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -- > > >> -- > > >> AF mailing list > > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <AF@af.afmug.com>> > > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > >> > > >> > > > -- > > > AF mailing list > > > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <AF@af.afmug.com>> > > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <AF@af.afmug.com>> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <AF@af.afmug.com>> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > ------------------------------ > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > ------------------------------ > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > ------------------------------ > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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