you should be able to diy a solution for .12c/Wh, that's what I'm doing,
would be cool to see if anyone else is doing anything similar? Just need
some lifepo4/li-ion modules, a 60v bms and a rack shelf..

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 2:28 PM Peter Kranz via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote:

> Chuck, something you may want to consider in your calculations is that I
> am comfortable taking LiFePO4 batteries to 100% DOD, whereas I never go
> below 50% DOD for my AGM backup systems. I guess one could make a case that
> I’m not cycling my AGM systems very much, so I shouldn’t care about the
> huge cycle life penalties of 100% DOD in which case your spreadsheet is
> still valid.
>
>
>
> But assuming we go with the 50% DOD argument, I can fit 4x170Ah AGMs in
> the bottom of my racks:
>
>
>
> 4x Deka 170Ah 12AVR1700-ET @ $495 = $1980 (120 lbs x 4 = 480 lbs)
>
> @50% DOD = 4080Wh of storage in a package 22” deep and 12.6” high or
> $.48/Wh
>
>
>
> The equivalent LiFePO4 new unit:
>
>
>
> 1x MeritSun LFP100-48 Units = $2200 (138 lbs)
>
> @100% DOD = 4800Wh of storage in a package 16”deep and 8.7” high or $.45/Wh
>
>
>
> So, my conclusion so far is if you are buying relatively expensive telecom
> rated AGM batteries and only going to 50% DOD with them, you may be
> breaking even with LiFEPO4 based systems.
>
>
>
>
> *Peter Kranz*www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
> Mobile: 510-207-0000
> pkr...@unwiredltd.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2020 10:33 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> I repost the list.
>
>
>
> You can get a front post telecom batt for 16 cents per watt hour.  But
> yeah, 20 cents is more like it.
>
> If solar flooded cells are OK, those can be had in the 7 cent range.
>
>
>
> *From:* TJ Trout
>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2020 11:20 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> I don't know what you guys are smoking :) but SLA/VRLA batteries are $200+
> kh/w unless we are talking walmart boat batteries which are ~$100kw/h, I
> just posted two sites with li-ion batteries with many options for 70-100$
> per kw/h ??
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 8:46 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote:
>
> I think you nailed it.   And until commercial Li batteries reduce price by
> 1/2 or more they aren't competitive except in special use cases. (RV and
> such)...   with 1/2 price drop and 2x the performance it's effectively a 4x
> difference in requirements and then they equal the utility of wet deep
> cycle.  They really need to be less than 1/2 the price to be a no-brainer...
>
> On 2/14/20 8:03 AM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> As I see it, for backup or solar applications, all that really matters is
> $/kWH, lifespan, and temperature tolerance (and that generally doesn't even
> matter if they're not outside). Are there any realistic advantages from
> lithiums other than size/weight? That's obviously important for a cell
> phone or an electric car, but it's pretty much irrelevant for what we're
> talking about doing.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 9:18 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> I only care about $/kWH
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Chuck, if you are after high kw/h and don't mind low density, the Leaf
> packs are really awesome, the modules are basically made to be modularly
> packed, you can use all-thread. Several off the shelf PCB's available to
> make them into 8s, 16s packs with all of the cell voltages already pinned
> out, basically a diy kit is available to make them into packs and they are
> sub $100/kwh
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:05 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote:
>
> all of the batteries batteryhookup.com and bigbattery.com are _used_ or
> new old stock, nothing new.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:02 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote:
>
> you get what you pay for, all of these guys guarantee the models to
> discharge to the specs they provide or money back
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote:
>
> You should be aware, that bigbattery.com is selling _used_ batteries.
> For example the 24v "powerwall"  3KWh unit for $699 is a used unit per Will
> Prowse.   His testing showed 67% degradation from new.  What the cycle life
> of a 67% depleted battery array is unknown..
>
> On 2/13/20 10:54 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Hoboy does she have some nice batteries...
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Webster
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 11:49 AM
>
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> Same here……
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 12:41 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> I'm afraid to click on that link...
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote:
>
> Also bigbattery.com is another good source
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 8:46 AM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> some guy named ron is coming over to charge my batteries now
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:20 AM Brian Webster <i...@wirelessmapping.com>
> wrote:
>
> To make sure you get the proper connectors, why else?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 10:42 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> I wonder why they want to know my gender?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 3:22 AM, TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Battery hookup.com has the modules, don't buy them all guys. They say
> Daly BMS works good. Make sure you get a bms with low temp and low voltage
> disconnect.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:26 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> Do tell.  Where do you get the batts?  What BMS are you using?
>
> Do you want to resell?  I would volunteer to be logistics and fulfillment
> if you want.
>
>
>
> *From:* TJ Trout
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:19 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
>
>
>
> Guys, every chemistry of lithium battery (lifepo4, li-ion, lto, etc) are
> available in 1 to 10 KW modules at less than $100 a kilowatt hour most of
> them test between 70 to 99% of the rated capacity mostly removed from
> electric vehicles anyways we repurpose them into storage for our equipment
> you just need a 48 volt BMS to balance the cells and provide low
> temperature and low voltage protection.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:50 PM Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote:
>
> They have three problems..   1) Cost..  Yeah they break the bank.  2) low
> voltage compared to other chemistries, which means _more_ cost  3) poor
> efficiency..   You put in 100 watts, you only get 80 watts out.  All of
> this is from listening to Will Prowse..   He has an excellent set of tubes
> on them...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q
>
> On 2/12/20 5:33 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> these they say are good for subzero charging, thats what appeals to me and
> that the subzero doesnt affect discharge rate
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:39 PM Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com>
> wrote:
>
> Lithiums degrade with temps over 130 degrees F ( depending upon
> chemistry and if you attempt to charge them below freezing.  Failure can
> result from trying to charge below freezing.  Between those extremes
> they do pretty well.  The below freezing is a deal breaker for outside
> solar.   There are manufacturers ( BattleBorn + others ) that are coming
> out with heaters to get around that.
>
> On 02/12/2020 04:21 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> > I'm wondering how well lithiums hold up compared to flooded cells in a
> > non-environmentally controlled area. I suspect it's worse.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 6:20 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com
> <ch...@wbmfg.com%20%0b>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <ch...@wbmfg.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     In my 42+ years of dealing with stationary flooded cells is that you
> >     can
> >     easily get 20+ years from them if they are properly maintained and
> >     kept in
> >     an environmentally controlled area.
> >
> >     -----Original Message-----
> >     From: Bill Prince
> >     Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:04 PM
> >     To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>>
> >     Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
> >
> >     I think you would expect at least 2-3 times the life with lithium
> >     (almost all the various chemistries currently in vogue). You can also
> >     increase discharge tolerance to 80-90 percent instead of the usual
> >     lead-acid 50% (or thereabouts).
> >
> >     I think the cost is still a bit over the top. Maybe another year or
> two
> >     depending.
> >
> >
> >     bp
> >     <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
> >
> >     On 2/12/2020 3:47 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> >      > Life also matters.
> >      >
> >      > Half the cost but has to be replaced in half the time would not
> >     be a good
> >      > deal.  With my luck, if batteries die after 3 years, I'll have a
> >     big power
> >      > outage every 37 months.  And it's not just a cost calculation.
> >     Lugging
> >      > half
> >      > a ton of new batteries out to a tower and then hauling the old
> >     ones back
> >      > for
> >      > recycling sucks.  So if someone has battery technology that lasts
> >     10 or 20
> >      > years, that's worth a bunch.
> >      >
> >      > -----Original Message-----
> >      > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com%0b>>     <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> >     <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <ch...@wbmfg.com>>
> >      > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:36 PM
> >      > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>>
> >      > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
> >      >
> >      > Charging time doesn't interest me much in a grid backup
> >     situation.  The
> >      > cost
> >      > of the battery per watt hour is normally my only consideration
> for a
> >      > backup
> >      > battery.
> >      >
> >      > -----Original Message-----
> >      > From: Robert Andrews
> >      > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 4:25 PM
> >      > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>>
> >      > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
> >      >
> >      > Nice thing about the lithium Iron is any charger that is
> programmable
> >      > will work.   And the faster you can charge them the better.   You
> >     think
> >      > flooded times of 2-4 hours and with a big charger the lithium
> >     banks can
> >      > charge at 100amps and 1 hour.
> >      >
> >      > On 02/12/2020 02:06 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com
> <ch...@wbmfg.com>>
> >     wrote:
> >      >> 21 cents per watt hour.  That is not competitive with flooded
> cells.
> >      >> And what kind of special charger would you have to have?
> >      >> *From:* Peter Kranz via AF
> >      >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2020 5:36 PM
> >      >> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com <af@af.afmug.com>>
> >      >> *Cc:* Peter Kranz
> >      >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Alibaba LiFePO4 48V 200Ah battery packs?
> >      >>
> >      >> Anyone successfully built a telecom UPS solution using rack mount
> >      >> LiFePO4 batteries sourced from china?
> >      >>
> >      >> There seems to be endless arrays of rack mount solutions there:
> >      >>
> >      >>
> >
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/48v-100ah-200ah-lithium-ion-bat
> >      >>
> tery_60844575234.html?spm=a2700.details.pronpeci14.6.7e40675elEWkcL
> >      >>
> >      >> Prices run about 25% the cost of locally sourced LiFePO4
> solutions.
> >      >> The selection is crazy however, and who knows what the gotchas
> are.
> >      >>
> >      >> *Peter Kranz
> >      >> *www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.UnwiredLtd.com>
> >     <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
> >      >> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
> >      >> Mobile: 510-207-0000
> >      >> pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com
> <pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>
> >      >>
> >      >>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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