And I would be very surprised to find a sealed hollow leg tower. Galvanizers do not like to galvanize hollow things due to trapped pockets of water that can cause steam explosions. So either it has to have holes for the zinc to flow out or it has to be solid.
From: Lewis Bergman Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:27 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? If you are really worried about it, use solid leg towers like the STG from Trylon, or one of the other manufacturers. Anything you do to "seal up" the hollow legs will result in rust forming. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: No basements in Florida J I took over a Bellsouth long line tower that has a poured concrete wall basement and its full of water J Its not necessarily the right thing to do, but we usually use “bottom pieces” or “starter pieces”, meaning we acquired a piece of tower, or cut one off, where the bottom isn’t normally usable. So that piece goes in the ground. This discussion will definitely make me think twice about the whole situation! Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 10:54 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I assume houses in your area do not have basements? Maybe we should put Zerk fittings on tower legs and then pump the bottom section full of grease or foam. 45GSR would not have that problem, I wonder if you could use a 45GSR bottom section and then regular 45G for the rest, assuming water will leak out the joints. Probably cheaper to just use a base plate. From: Paul McCall Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:36 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? Scratching my head…. WHEN does it do that other than Freezing water, which we never get? We do hit water at 2ft. to 2.5 ft of digging, so keeping out of water would be a challenge J From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 10:22 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? Definitely put 6" of gravel in the bottom and stick the tower into that.....then pour concrete. Here is an example of what happens when you don't do that. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Lewis Bergman <lewis.berg...@gmail.com> wrote: The small hole, as long as it isn't plugged with spiders or something. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: I heard this only recently on the list. I inherited this business in 2000 and that’s just how we did it… legs in concrete and small hole right above the concrete in each leg. We have built towers for 15 years and have yet to see any symptoms. We do regular inspections on towers, but I will look closer at it from here out. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:01 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? Water isn't supposed to stand in the legs. The legs are supposed to be into a sand and gravel mix a few inches below where the concrete starts. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Lewis Bergman" <lewis.berg...@gmail.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 7:57:49 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? That is correct. Water standing in your tower leg will end up rusting the inside of the legs but that seems to be less an issue than splitting after a freeze. The galv on a R25G type tower is not a very high quality as they are price sensitive. When exposed to harsher conditions they will rust. If you need a better, stronger tower consider the small Trylon solid rod STG or Sabre light weight tubular towers like the 1200 or 1800 TLWD. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: We drill a tiny hole so water doesn’t build up in the leg. So I am clear though, you are saying the legs split when they fill up with water AND then freeze? Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 11:32 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? They burst just above ground or wherever the waterline is. Split is more like it. Seen it several times. You have to make sure the legs can drain. On Jun 14, 2015 10:08 PM, "Paul McCall" <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: How/where do they burst apart? From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 10:49 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I've seen a few tube towers - including a very nice one - bursting apart due to the customers putting the base right into concrete and not leaving a way for the water to drip out the bottom. On Jun 14, 2015 9:18 PM, "Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: This might not be a concern in Florida or Texas, but if you do it that way in the north, the legs may burst due to filling with water and then freezing. Tushar, We buy Rohn 25G, with a landed cost of about $ 130 per section. Figure $ 80 in concrete (probably a little high) and we stick 3 ft. of the first section in the ground. We do the first piece (dig hole, pour cement) in about 2 hours times 2 people (on average) then come back in a day after cement hardens and we stack the other pieces (sometimes 20 ft. at a time, sometimes 30 feet at a time, but figure another 3 hours on site times 2 guys. That includes bracketing to the house. However, that part is a big variable though because of home construction. You shouldn’t just attach to an eve without beefing the eve up. Rohn also makes various size stand offs that can go to the side of the house. So, about 10 hours of labor on averages, and probably $ 650 to $ 750 in materials for a tower of 37 feet. If your highest attachment point is high enough and solid, you can stack another 10 foot section There are some variables in there, but that should give you a decent estimate. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tushar Patel Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 6:09 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I guess we should also look at the tower install too. What is the rough cost to install 40 feet, Rohn 25? Tushar On Jun 14, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: Its mostly financial considerations… we do whatever we can (payments, etc.) to push them that direction. It just makes the most sense. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:00 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I don’t understand why customers don’t blink an eye signing 2 year contracts on cellphones and satellite service, but resist investing in a Rohn tower which is an asset with about a 30 year life and also gives them a place to mount things like an OTA TV antenna, security cameras, etc. Not sure if they think it’s ugly, or just don’t make financial decisions for the long term. From: Paul McCall Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 11:34 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I don’t know comparatively Tushar. We have found that 50mph winds for an afternoon is all it takes to bend them. Being on the ocean, we also see them corrode rather quickly. 2 different brands of poles and within 2 years they are almost unusual, parts break trying to loosen them to lower them etc. They just don’t last and then whose responsibility is it to replace them. The customer doesn’t want to pay twice that’s for sure. The other problem is fine tuning… east/west is OK, but up/down angle of a dish is a PIA. 320 CPEs are not as bad on a pole for tuning, but the other issues really hurt us. We would rather try talking the customer into a Rohn 25 40 feet or a bit more depending on highest building attachment point so that we are not guyed. Even if we do that at parts / labor cost, its much better long term, and easy to service the radio. MOST of the time, we are able to sell that at a $ 500 REAL profit, and a win-win for all From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tushar Patel Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 9:43 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? I agree it is hard to service. Most of the time we have two people to install but one person to service, some time two. But how is it be different in Florida than Texas? We get enough windstorms, we deal with pole bent etc too. Tushar On Jun 14, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote: Push up poles in Florida is a nightmare waiting to happen. We learned that the hard way. Even with guy wires. And, a pain to service. Kinda fits your description of NLOS customers below. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tushar Patel Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 11:52 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? Your point on sector efficiency is the reason we no longer like NLOS installs. Yes you may gain few customer with little less effort but in long run it hurts. We try to install 40 to 50 feet push-up poles and get better line of sight. Tushar On Jun 13, 2015, at 10:44 PM, George Skorup <geo...@cbcast.com> wrote: That's great that it works. I'm sure the Telrad stuff and other gear like it is excellent. For me, it's too expensive. Every way I run the numbers, I'm looking at 16-18 months for break-even. And that's not including all of the extra stuff required for a large scale deployment. If I can't get 25-30 users per sector, the site is too small to deploy it. If I'm running a bunch of NLOS customers (which we would since we're about 55% 900MHz), lots of low modulation users really sucks for sector capacity. And those NLOS shots, like Ken says, will they continue to work? When the trees are soaked, covered in ice, etc., does it go to shit and I have to listen to customers bitching because they were getting 20+Mbps and now get <5Mbps? Which again is a hit on sector efficiency. On 6/13/2015 8:48 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: One thing I experienced with 3.65 GHz WiMAX was an install that turned out to work only because of signal bouncing off the tall tree leaves, and stopped working in November when the leaves went away. We should have been suspicious when aligning for best signal actually had the CPE pointed up at about a 30 degree angle. I have seen something similar with 900 MHz. From: TJ Trout Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 8:15 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? How does LTE penetrate hills? This is the second or third "through a hill" story in the last week? On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com> wrote: RSRP, it is a measurement. It is a truer number than RSSI, which is only an estimate (so I'm told). As Ken said, basically add 30 to get an idea of the RSSI value. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID On Jun 13, 2015 5:36 PM, Mathew Howard <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote: Yeah... something like that. Notice that is -108 CINR, not RSSI, like the numbers we're all used to. On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote: I think Patrick said to add 30 dB to Telrad signal numbers because they were “per subcarrier” or something? From: Colin Stanners Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 4:17 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Do you want to see this stuff here? Patrick, I haven't been following Telrad but that's too incredible - I can't see how -108, which is below the noise floor for any reasonable channel bandwidth (20mhz+?) could get any reasonable speed, much less those. On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com> wrote: Should I resist sharing this sort of thing? If it's out of line, let me know Chuck. <mime-attachment.png> -----Original Message----- From: telrad-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:telrad-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Discher Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 7:51 PM To: tel...@wispa.org Subject: [Telrad] Another Telrad success story Not to flood the list with these but Zirkel is having great results. ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************
